Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

Well, I meant see as handle and have, so I still say doll companies probably handle each other's dolls and have them around, and that could just as easily be Volks as anybody else. That possibility doesn't bother me. A writer with nobody else's books in the house is pretty much guaranteed to be a crap writer, as is a painter who never examines other artists' paintings closely. But I don't see how many companies came out with SD-sized, similarly-proportioned dolls in similar-looking resin with fairly similar-looking joints without examining Volks SDs in person, taking them apart, etc. This is partly why I find Tenshi no Sato's policy of not allowing in anyone who works for a competitor kind of amusing -- uh, guys? They could just buy one and take it apart . . .

Are people seriously attacked for giving negative feedback in feedback/company review threads? Or is that in discussion threads? I mean, I've complained in Soom and Fairyland threads, and no one's taken my head off. Not meaning that in the sense that my experience over rides those of others, but just saying what my experience has been.

 

I think there is a tendency to try and keep things 'positive' and it can work both ways. If you know you're in for a long wait then you don't want to hear that people are fed up. There is an attitude that we are privileged to be able to purchase these dolls (which seems to extend back to when the hobby began and importing was tough). I got into the hobby when Elfdoll first began to be sold by dealers so I've never had that feeling. I also tend to wonder how much the original Volks attitude that you are fostering a BJD into your family influenced things. Given that there is a set time limit in most countries to deliver goods, companies are pushing the envelope more and more. I think you've got to decide whether you are fine with it or not. I don't see why people have to accept inferior goods. That is one I'd be complaining to the company about. No guarantees that it will get you anywhere unfortunately.

As for the Leeke/Dust of Dolls issue, I think the most interesting thing I walked away from it with was Armeleia's copying scandal time blog. This sort of thing happens regularly (which I knew), sometimes with justification and sometimes without. And most of the time, opinions tend to be extremely polemic. I'm also impressed by how Infiniti doll have now managed to be 'inspired' by other companies for all their sculpts: SD17 for their males, Yo-SDs for the UIDs and now Unoa for their females.

 

I suggest you try googling Willemijn (Wil) van der Spiegel - especially her two books "Poppenparade" (1987) and "Strandpoppenland" (1996). I believe Puns comes from the tradition of European art dolls. Wil's dolls in the second book have the same round heads and ears and pear-shaped bodies as Puns except that they're made of oil-painted cloth and paperclay.

 

Well, it's been awhile for me since I engaged in a debate. And, after skimming 14 pages I'm not sure how coherent my arguments will be. I apologize in advance.

Forgiveable or not forgiveable? Well, everything is forgiveable if one chooses to forgive, and I think people should - even if they choose never to buy from that company again. Emotionally, it is simply not worth carrying that kind of anger with oneself over the long-term, in my opinion, especially since collecting dolls should be fun. But, the business side of things is NOT fun.

In BJD-land people seem to always go back to Volks as the first "BJD maker", but over the past year I've been wondering where Volks got their inspiration from after seeing OOAK (one of a kind) porcelain BJDs in shops in Japan. I read somewhere Volks got their inspiration from "ball-jointed dolls made of porcelain" and it has kind of been assumed that these were antique dolls made in France and Germany. But, what if they copied the slimmer BJD design of OOAK BJDs made in Japan? As an example, I have followed Fumiko Ooyama's work and here is one of her recent creations in porcelain that I saw in Time Roman in Kobe: http://www.timeroman.com/timeroman/shop/3587.html

And here is Fumiko Ooyama's website: http://sakura.canvas.ne.jp/spr/f-doll/

Please note her first exhibition was in 1999, the same year Volks brought out their resin line. I am NOT accusing Volks of copying her. I only love her dolls because she has such a distinct style and every time I see her dolls I am drawn to them. But, my rhetorical question is did Volks copy Japanese porcelain BJD artists and change the material to resin for affordability? Possibly. It is only a theory. My theory. IT IS NOT FACT.

And, even if they copied the Japanese porcelain BJDl design, I would still support Volks.

But, not because they copied something that COULD be copied. Just because people can copy something doesn't mean they should. It's because Volks did it by creating their own vision of dolls with a distinct personality. When I see a doll, I know if it is Volks or not and not because I memorize the headmolds (boring!). When I see a Fairyland headmold and immediately know it's Fairyland. I see a Dream of Doll doll and know it's a Dream of Doll doll. I glance at an Iplehouse doll and know their style as well. Lati is another company that has a distinct style as does Bambicrony and others...

And then there is Leekeworld.

I look at Leeke dolls and I see a variety of influences but I do NOT see a "Leeke doll". There is no identity or soul to that company's dolls. There doesn't seem to be anything that ties the dolls together ~for me~. And, I lose interest. Quickly. I see "pretty". But, I don't see a "buy me" doll.

When I see the newest body mold of the Mikaela doll and compare it to Pun, there are structural differences. But, aesthetically, I FEEL a huge gap in the "soul" of the doll. In the Pun body I see smooth lines, a refined design and such love. In the Leeke body, I see overly narrow shoulders for lumpy hips and an unncessary gap in the thigh joint. I see a rushed sculpt. And then, I see photos of Pun on the work table. And, I know why. There is no heart and soul invested in that Leeke body. It was an inspired work but poorly executed, in my opinion. And then I hear how they fell in love with the doll at the show in France they went to and photographed Pun's work. They tried to create a doll in months that took a French artist years to perfect. And, anyone with a refined eye who wants to see it objectively will see it. Anyone who wants a pear-shaped body because they love that body and simply want to play with a doll won't. Different people want different things in their dolls and I say to those who want the Leeke body to buy it. Be happy.

Besides, the head is cute. And, perhaps, this head is the only thing from Leekeworld that gives me a glimmer of hope that they are forming their own identity.

I don't think the Mikaela head is a copy. I think it is heavily inspired by perhaps a dozen dolls. I see Volks Liesalotte's little sister, but that's me. I also see other dolls, but I think for Leekeworld it is a relatively strong headmold compared to their current offerings.

But, I don't and won't buy from Leekeworld.

It's not because they copied. It's not because they lied. I'm really not that noble. It's because I demand more. I want a doll body that has been perfected and not copied to simply replicate a particular shape. Because, I notice the details. I'm not happy with a particular shape. I want a perfectly constructed body. And, I'm not convinced they aren't taking short-cuts in other areas of their business as well.

I'd rather spend more on a doll of quality from a company that invests in creativity than simply buy a doll from a company because I can. I would rather wait two years to get the doll of my dreams instead of settle for what I would feel is a cheap copy because I WILL notice the flaws. And, I demand the companies I buy from have an identity when it comes to dolls. For me, ARTISTS are the souls of the dolls and the companies need to recognize their artists even if it means a rise in prices. But, I don't think people need to think that way. I only want to point out that some people DO feel this way.

So, the question... Why do I support Dust of Dolls? It's simple. They have a vision. Leekeworld seems to copy ideas and perhaps change artists a little too frequently, creating a line of dolls that lack cohesion and a company vision. But, even though I support Dust of Dolls and have now decided not to buy from Leekeworld, I still think those who love the Mikaela doll should buy it. Because I think people should buy the dolls they love. And, it would be a boring world if we all loved the same thing and collected in the same way.

My only gripe? Those ridiculous Leekeworld signature things either for or against. To be perfectly honest, I don't like them. At all. In my opinion, it's tacky.

 

You raise a really good point, elphsnt. Add to your example of Fumiko Ooyama, Ryoichi Yoshida, who started making dolls in 1973, and opened a school to teach others in 1983.

 

elphsent, whether your theory about Volks is fact or not, is beside the point, because either way, things aren't created in a vacuum (something that is good for everyone to remember). What they did with resin dolls was different, but clearly had been influenced by other things (ball joints for instance have been around for centuries. As someone else pointed out earlier, it is likely if someone wants to make a doll that they will examine other dolls to see how they are made.

As for the rest of your post -- that is your opinion, but not at all debatable, as there is no 'truth' there -- only your own personal reaction.

'Be happy' is a good suggestion to everyone here But I have a quibble and that is the part of the above that I bolded:

You are treating your own reaction as fact since you are now claiming that any objective person will see what you see, but that's not true. And is your eye really more refined that the eyes of other people? I think you need to rethink a bit what you're saying here. Naturally some dolls will speak to some people and others won't -- that holds true for companies too, as people have stylistic preferences. You aren't drawn to Leeke just as there are companies that personally don't do anything for me, and that's ok. However, be wary of taking those preferences to seriously when judging a company or the likes and dislikes of other hobbyists.

My eye is fine, but I prefer Leeke's style to Dust of Dolls. It has nothing to do with pining for a pear shaped body and/or not wanting to wait or pay more money. Nor is it a reflection on how I feel about all the fuss that's been going on between the two companies. Prior to seeing Mikhaila I wasn't that interested in wildly different body types, and $300 some dollars is not cheap for a mini (if you want her as a fullset the price goes up from there as well) -- it never has been. Whether to buy a Pun or a Mikhaila for me comes down totally to what I find most aesthetically appealing and that is all there really is to it. I can't speak for other people of course, but then neither can you.

 

I couldn't be more agree with you.

@Elphsent: If you don't like Leeke and/ or Mikhaila then say you don't, that's ok, but don't say that Leeke didn't put soul and love in her making cause that sounds really rude and unrespectful to them and the people that do like her (myself included).

I have had in my hands a Leeke Min myself (absolutly gorgeous boy!) and I think that what you say about Leeke's identity is not true and also for example, the Leeke little ones (Honey, Pumpkin, etc.) are so recognizable!, their little faces are so Leeke just like Delfs are so CP.

 

Attending an art show and photographing a new doll and then just a few months later coming out with a very similar doll could also be called disrespectful. I think Elphsent was well within her rights to state her opinion on that topic and certainly her tone was not rude. She clearly stated "I FEEL a huge gap in the "soul" of the doll". That's a feeling, and we can express those on DOA as long as we keep it civil.

In this thread a few people stated that a keen eye can spot the glaring differences between the sculpts. But let's be reasonable. We can admit at least that Leeke was heavily inspired by D.D. It's not like Elphsent is just coming out of no where with this.

The real question is if you personally think it was too inspired. We can't go around slapping copyrights on every idea in the world so it is up to each person to decide how they feel about how these companies are conducting their businesses.

 

I meant no offense, Taco and Stratolily. It's only ~my view~ and my view is not from a solely BJD perspective. I come from collecting artist dolls where sometimes the only difference between dolls' faces is a slight lip upturn or the shape of a jawline since they were all sculpted by the same artist (every doll has the same nose, lol!). I automatically see details, because I had to learn how to better choose my dolls to avoid having to sell at a loss on the secondary market. It took years and it is rare for me to love a doll completely. Very rare. My view is NOT "better" - only "different".

My honest opinion should NOT change anyone's views of Leekeworld. It's mine and mine alone based on my perceptions and feelings. But, I wanted to voice that sometimes there are people who will not settle and will want something very specific for their collections. This doesn't mean they hate other dolls. It means they value different things.

Personally, I love the new Leekeworld head (it's gorgeous!), but I'm not a fan of the body. My eye is immediately drawn to the gap in the hip joint and the stark contrast between the shoulders and hips which ~for me~ feels awkward. It is simply not what appeals to me, especially when I see photos of the Dust of Dolls body. And, I have looked at Leekeworld male dolls before, and I couldn't "connect". I saw various similarities which are bound to occur in companies' dolls, but that wasn't what bothered me. It was the lack of emotion that I felt. And, looking at the secondary market prices of Leekeworld boys, I can't be the only one who feels this way. That said, if people love their Leekeworld dolls then I am so happy that they can, because I feel the dolls are very pretty even if they aren't for me.

What bothers me about Leekeworld most of all is not this single incident either. It's the trend. I bought wigs from them. The limited wigs were very poor quality. I bought shoes from them. They state on their website they will fit Volks. They are ~very~ tight. In my opinion, too tight, but workable. Now, this "issue". I think it's natural to be inspired by other companies' work. What bothers me about it is the photo of the Dust of Dolls body on the workbench and the fact the company saw it in France at a French doll show. I love that Leekeworld felt inspired to create a pear-shaped body, but as Isenn states above, I feel they were a little too inspired by the Dust of Dolls version. I "feel" the passion invested into the head. I don't "feel" the passion invested into the body. For me, it feels like a copy. But, others will see it differently and I respect that.

But this "lack of emotion" I personally feel is NOT "unforgiveable". But, less than ideal product quality, customer service issues and controversial issues like this motivate me to seek alternatives. It isn't that I dislike Leekeworld. Rather, I think there are so many companies out there it truly is a buyer's market and I want to make sure I am aware of who has the best items for my preferences. And, other companies are watching. If this pear-shaped body is a success for Leekeworld, other companies will follow and copy the concept. When they do, I will watch. And wait. Because, one of those companies may create a body that is better than anything that is out there right now.

So, I encourage people to buy this Mikaela. I think it's important for broadening the variety of doll shapes in the marketplace. And, that benefits everyone in the long run. And, this big debate? Great advertising for a new body type that I hope becomes more mainstream with time.

Whether people buy or choose not to buy and perhaps boycott Leekeworld is a personal decision. Whether people choose to forgive or not forgive Leekeworld or other companies is a personal decision. But, I would encourage people to forgive even if they choose not to buy at various places. This hobby is supposed to be fun. Don't let grudges and negative emotions change that. Express it. Debate. Use all caps. Rant. Rave. And then? Move on. It could take weeks, months or perhaps years. But, don't hold onto the negativity forever.

 

I don't think anybody has denied that. The question has merely been how much influence is too much. The issue I personally have with her statement was the idea that objective people with a discerning eye would naturally agree with her, which suggests very strongly that those who don't agree are somewhat lacking. At that point she oversteps -- it's one thing to not like a company's dolls, it's another to make statements of fact about her fellow hobbyists based on nothing other than that dislike.

*ETA* elphsent, as I said before, you are allowed your own personal opinions about companies, and I'm not hurt that you would prefer other dolls. You just need to be careful to separate opinion from factual statements. You aren't the only one to see details, but different things are off putting to different people. There are things that you might overlook, but someone else latches onto simply because it's the sort of thing that jumps out at them -- it's not necessarily a matter of objectivity or being able to notice more details than others.

 

I've never owned a pair of their shoes, so I can't comment there. I've had the reverse experience with their wigs, though. The only wig of theirs that I was disappointed with (and it really started to bother me after awhile) was a much older wig -- it's texture was not nearly as nice, and it just didn't hold up particularly well. All the wigs I've gotten since I've been very happy with -- well there was one I sold, because it ended up not being quite what I wanted but that happens to me with wigs all the time no matter the maker. Wigs happen to be the most headache inducing things in the hobby sometimes. But anyway, individuals sometimes have very different experiences with the same companies.

This is my first experience actually buying a doll from them, so I'm interested to see how that goes as it will likely decide whether or not I buy more dolls from them in the future.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. The truth is, it's difficult to judge if/when/how much a bjd's value will change in the future. Dolls go in and out of favor, new engineering causes older dolls (or their bodies at least) to drop, economic situations rise and fall, and with so many dolls being released there's tons of competition for hobbyists' attention. You can make an educated guess in the short term, but if you're planning to keep your dolls for a few years it's pure speculation.

 

This is something that I wonder about as a newb. I hate the feeling of being ripped off and if I were ripped off by a company, then my answer would be no, unless after a period of time I heard that they had turned themselves and their service around.

Part of my hesitation (besides the money aspect) is which company is a really stand up company? How do you know and how does one take the plunge and make the purchase?

 

My post was not about the body similarities. Although I see them I am not prepared to start burning effigies because this is not a recast etc... But I do think the poster that called elphsent rude was a bit harsh and that was what I was responding to. It's not like she is crazy for seeing what she sees. Also, I would like to keep this conversation civil because I find it interesting and I don't want it locked.

..........

On another note, I want to add that the banners are getting old. We have members on the board who own Leeke dolls and I can't imagine that they feel very welcome when they see the big BOYCOTT sign. To the Leeke supporters I confess, it was days before I actually read the modified red text that marked your "support" and I thought most of you were also non Leeke supporters. To me the Red = Boycott so I just never focused on it. You might be defeating you goal.

 

Actually, I think elphsnt has a pretty good point, if I'm reading it right. So much of this hobby is focused on originality, creativity, and the ability to express one's artistic voice. If a company seems to have a lack of 'voice' to any given person, I can see that being a reason to not have any desire to buy from them as much as having a style/voice, but not liking that style.

I don't see it so much as a matter of forgiveness or the lack thereof, but of just who to buy from (or not) in the first place, but I do think it's a pretty valid point to raise. I can see how someone could view that as 'unforgivable' from an artistic perspective, however, even if I don't share that specific view.

 

Well, I can certainly see why it would leave a bad taste in your mouth. It sounds like you and others were definitely mistreated in that case.

I do share Taco's dislike for "anyone with a refined eye" or "looking objectively" type statements. It can easily come across as dismissive of other people's opinions without taking into account what knowledge other observers may or may not have. The fact that there is debate at all on the subject doesn't mean other people are simply less discerning, it's that these kinds of issues are complex.

On the other hand, while I don't find it unforgivable, I agree with elphsnt that I'd like to see companies come up with more ideas sometimes. I think this may be part of the reason I'm not crazy about homage dolls. With that time, energy, and ability, something more original could have been arrived at -- OR a really accurate, licensed version could have been arrived at. I would prefer either case. I don't require very deep originality, just something that seems a little less . . . well, lazy might be a strong word.

I am going to disagree that Leeke sculpts have no unique stamp. When they come out with new sculpts, I rarely feel I'm looking at something that belongs to a different company. I think, oh, he's in the Mihael family, or the Koji family, or looks a bit like Romeo. As always, YMMV.

DoA has feedback threads. While not everybody posts feedback on every transaction with a company, threads do exist for most, if not all, BJD companies. Another option may be to go through waiting rooms, where issues of overly long waits and such may come up. Box opening threads sometimes refer to issues as well. I mean, you will never truly know, because both individuals and companies seem to occasional have meltdowns, but there are places to go to research companies a little bit.

 

I tend to agree with you. I have a couple of books featuring fabric/clay dolls and those traits seemed to be hallmarks of the European artists. But I'm curious how these traits fit into the "Asian aesthetic."

I guess nobody remembers the artists forum on DoA, or they wold have seen that Sharmistha had been in development possibly longer that Puns. Dust of Dolls probably should not have allowed photography of their work. Even in the amateur shows I attend selling my art, photography is not allowed. And just because Leeke was foolish enough to post photos of their work space along with the source material they were using doesn't mean that other companies aren't doing the same thing (using others' work as "inspiration"). I suspect they are. They just aren't broadcasting it.

Indeed. But I wonder if they particularly care if others feel welcome or not.

Perhaps the mods might want to refine what is allowable for signature banners? Text links might be fine, but getting smacked in the face with the same banner over and over isn't my cup of saké either.

Agreed. No two people will have the exact same liking for the exact same things. It remains to be seen if the "shortcomings" of the Leeke sculpt that elphsnt sees are detrimental to the engineering or poseability of the sculpt.

Besides. . . in reality does anyone have a perfectly toned rump that size?

And here's the hypocrisy. There are some "boycott people" who decry Leeke's "inspiration" but support a different company who creates heavily inspired "homage" dolls.

And, not to put too fine a point on it, but it's not in most companies' interest to come up with anything really original. Being declared "off topic" here very likely cuts down on sales.

But to get back to the original intent of this thread, I'm not really the forgiving sort.

On the other hand, I have seen some who are too forgiving. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to wait a year for anything unless that was the length of my layaway.

 

I don't think they do! To my eye Pun is firmly in the European tradition and Mikhaila in the Asian. However there's such a lot of overlap these days that perhaps it only matters in the context of somewhere like DoA where the mods have to have some way of restricting topicality (and I'm not arguing with their choices). I also find my Dollstown girls quite "European" but that's probably because that's what I'm comparing them with rather than the Japanese porcelain ball-jointed dolls mentioned above.

I was seriously thinking of buying Mikhaila but finally decided I wasn't keen on her actual shape. I love the top half and the way she holds her arms - but find the pear-shape a bit too flat for my taste.

 

I agree with elphsnt, but also makes me wonder. If this hobby is focused on originality and expressing the artist's voice and creating "soulfull" dolls, what does that say about armeleia's list? Narae was heavilly inspired by Unoa according to it, Soom by Luts (or CP, don't know which), Dollmore by Dollshe, Ricky by Volks and after these companies took the first step, many more came who were also inspired.
Does that mean that ever since that first company took the plunch all the other dolls lacked 'soul'? Because if that's the case I think we can throw our entire hobby in the bin as far as originality goes. Or is only the first company who decided to create something just like the sculptor that inspired them, the soulless black sheep? And all the other companies who came after, are suddenly normal artist's expressing their voice, unlike the first.
Where do we draw the line? And is that line fair?

Perhaps when more companies come up with pear-shaped bodies, the community won't be so aggrivated, 'cause we've been there before and it doesn't sting so much.