Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

Mikhaila reminds me of the fact that Leeke photoshopped their own pictures to hide the truth and to be able to continue to lie about what their sculptor had or hadn't seen. It's not a horrible, terrible crime, but after I've seen doll companies (and individual sellers) tell big fat lies, scam people out of their money, dragging a customer's name through the mud or resort to blackmail, I find this photoshop incident a red flag.
It is not an unforgivable crime and I've mentioned some pages back that an often seen response to being caught lying and have your back pushed against the wall is to lie harder, but I'm not any doll company's mother and I don't owe them a pat on the back telling them everything will be okay.
A company or seller with a good reputation may get the benefit of the doubt from me when things start to look fishy, but one with a tarnished reputation won't. In that case I'd rather not wait until I can't request a refund through my CC company anymore while hoping everything will turn out okay. I've seen too many people being made a fool and strung along for months and in some cases one or two years.

For me it's not about how or why Leeke created a certain doll. It's about feeling very uncomfortable to have seen them lie so publicly. They broke my trust as a customer so if I would have to wait one or two months longer than stated on the website, I'd feel too uncomfortable to continue with the transaction. Even the good feedback they are getting now is not making the discomfort going away.
This goes for other companies that have done shady things in the past. Like a dog that has bitten someone before. It doesn't have to be a bad dog and you can let it play, but you'd be a fool to leave it with children unsupervised.

 

My priority in ANY purchase I do is customer service. It doesn't matter if the dolls is wonderful, if the service is like trash I would never give them the taste of my money. Dolls are particularly too expensive and for that payment I would expect an equally amount of good service.

Back in 2009 I was lucky to buy my first doll just before the whole CustomHouse delay championship and I indeed got him in 3 months (ok...almost 4) as promised and I've got a fair good assistance from the CH staff. And I was shocked to see a flood of inquiries in their Q&A because of their delays of 6....8.... months O.o''
And after that unfortunately I decided to never buy from them because I would never want to be in the same shoes of the other customers that suffered so much with all the wait and not so good outcome.

As for the whole Leeke x D.D, well, it's clear who I support, but not because of issue of copy. But the lack of ethics by covering evidence. And that for me is a sign of guilt enough.
And popular companies have to be careful because they set example to other companies and that's the kind of ethics that I don't support and don't want to see happening too often.

btw, since the petition didn't work out, I've changed the banner already (I haven't accessed DoA for a while), but I would prefer to stick it yet for anyone that is interested in reading it just in case and make their own decision about it.

[edit] link fixed.

 

I wanted to come back to this thread for a few reasons. First, the quote above that a few people found a little offensive. I want to reiterate it was my personal feeling and I did not mean that Leekeworld dolls aren't beautiful. In fact, I like a lot of their dolls, including the Mikhaila head. But, I couldn't connect with the dolls on a personal level.

Until their latest limitation release.

Perhaps it was the influence of meeting a non-Volks doll collector. Or, perhaps it was my desire to expand my BJD collection beyond Volks to a more fantasy doll that really pulled at me that has nagged me for the past couple of years. And I'm genuinely surprised to say it was Leekeworld that won me over with something that I've never seen before and fell in love with instantly. And, I'll be the first to stand up and say that my view above has changed, because now I think Leekeworld has stumbled upon something that is creative yet doesn't compromise what I see as creative integrity in their new Kiel Ent release. However, I respect those who disagree.

So, although I stand by my views that I don't like how the jointing system of the Mikhaila body was copied or that Leekeworld tried to cover that fact up (even though I like the Mikhaila head), I can admit that my views have changed of Leekeworld, with regards to the creativity of the company, with the release of their Kiel Ent limiteds. It's been awhile since I ordered a complete set doll, but I'm trying the Leekeworld release. I hope the reality is as beautiful as the promise.

So, can companies be forgiven? Yes. Can companies be forgiven too quickly or too much? Perhaps. But, perhaps that forgiveness comes because a company is working hard to overcome a past mistake. We are all human and not one of us is perfect. And then sometimes, there are things worth taking a bit of a risk to obtain.

 

You know, when I saw the new ent designs by Leeke, I thought it was beautiful and creative. I thought it was so creative and original that I told myself I wouldn't be surprised if someday it turns out people at Leekeworld were inspired by some game design concept art. I think this because of two reasons. The first reason is the general observation I made that artists usually grow into the direction of making a great and creative piece. They first takes steps and may then take leaps in their ideas and creative process, but you can tell the direction from the beginning. If an artist changes direction, it usually takes a few steps first (for example: design sketches that won't make it, because they are nice, but not good enough) before they can make leaps. When you see an artist suddenly make a major leap in an unexpected direction, it in many cases turns out that artist copied or heavily leaned on the work of someone else.
The second reason is the fact Leekeworld has already heavily leaned upon the work of others in the past.

The new ent series may be very well 100% the work of the creative process that took place at Leekeworld, but Leekeworld damaged their own reputation and it colours people's perception in various degrees.

 

While I actually agree with Muisje 100%, I can also say that there are a lot of concept artists and character artists out there that might have offered Leeke the designs if they weren't being used for something else, or perhaps were in a 'scrap pile' after the end of a project. It does happen, especially with artists who may have a good concept but nothing specific to do with it -- something like this can be great exposure when it's a proper collaboration that can help get the character designer noticed. I'm not willing to cry foul until I know it isn't that, and know I'm looking forward to these designs coming out for the time being.

 

I agree with what you have said. I do think that Leekeworld did do that. Especially there is not hint before that of wanting to do any kind of artist doll. Their dolls has the same aesthetics of most other dolls in the hobby, but like most a little of their own style. So it is very suspicious that the sculpt they go out there with has too much in common IMO with an artist dolls sculpt, that Leekeworld had been in contact with.

I also agree that it has damaged what i think of them.

I think if this was the case an artist would have been credited for the inspiration. Because i know that artists who come up with designs can get pretty popular for it.

 

Whereas this comment appears to me a classic case of finger pointing without any proof whatsoever. I remember when Soom introduced either Beryl or Sard out of the blue. They didn't have any history of fantasy dolls whatsoever, but decided to do something incredibly different. I've seen sculptures that Rainman has done of a dragon and several realistic sculpts of famous actors. They've never translated into his BJD work. What if they hired a new sculptor with an interest in fantasy designs. Perhaps their sculptor had done other such work or art and decided to show Leekeworld who said "Can you make a BJD out of it?".

People used the argument that they should create their own unique doll and when it appears they have, they're now accused of maybe copying person/persons unknown. Geesh. Personally, I doubt if anyone will care whether Leeke has used inspiration in any of their dolls if the next two look as good as the Kiel Ents. People buy because they want the doll/design and that won't change. The irony is that if Leeke's designs do really well, we can expect to see similar twig/leaf designs on other companies dolls etc. I somehow doubt whether anyone will be crying foul on Leeke's behalf.

 

I don't know the creative process at Leekeworld, but this is what I see myself. I honestly do see some growth, but mostly a see a unique combination of influences.

The first three Project Dolls are highly inspired by the Soom fantasy themed dolls, but were still unique. I was not really sold on those three including the first Mikhaila, Irene or the four fairies, but they were nice dolls. Then came a European-inspired Lynn, some anthros and some tinies. And after that came the controversial Mikhaila with the Puns-inspired body. And, now the tree fairies.

There is still a Soom-inspired fantasy theme, I think, but I'm glad to see a company with a more "anime" fantasy feel to it (perhaps inspired by Volks? or Volks inspired by Leeke? Probably both inspired by the other) since I like an element of "cute" and "pretty" anime in my dolls. But, there is also an evolution with the body. This is NOT a child YoSD body like normal. This is a mature, curvy body that appears to have been created adapting their own design and likely inspired by Puns. THIS is what I wish Leeke had done when they created their Mikhaila - an adaptation of their own design rather than the creation of a whole new one based on another artist's creation.

I do see a creative growth process here. Whether it continues, well, I'm not sure, but I do see a connection from the past to the now. The question really is whether or not they can continue with building an identity and in the process restore the trust in their products, I think.

That said, I can definitely understand the lack of trust. I really do. But, I don't know if they borrowed or created this concept. What I do know is that I love it. And, I can't say that about many fantasy dolls. So, my instincts whether they be right or wrong tell me that this doll is a product of a creative process, but perhaps that is only my own perceptions.

 

I have to agree with the above. Making accusations with no proof at all what so ever, isn't a good thing in my book -- for awhile people where calling recast every other time something new came out, is this the new version of that now? Someone comes out with something different so it must be directly copied from someone else? The Mikhaila controversy had plenty of gray area, this doesn't even have gray. I guess you're damned if you do, damned if you don't If you don't trust Leeke, then don't buy from Leeke, but don't make accusations with nothing to back them up either.

Oh and it's probably worth pointing out that Leeke's reputation has not been horribly damaged. Some people are upset, while others happily continue to buy Leeke's products -- plenty of people purchased Mikhaila too and others probably don't care one way or another. Don't assume that Leeke has become some sort of pariah just because you have an issue with them.

This was my reaction as well. I never got into the other fantasy dolls coming out, but really really liked the Ents -- I realized it's because I don't like the more realistic look to the headsculpts that Soom adopted with their newer doll lines, while Leeke's sculpting style fits what I want in a doll.

 

I have high expectations of these doll companies and I expect that they keep their words and promises of delivery of the products that I purchase from them. I would understand if there are some kind of delay that prevent them from shipping my dolls or other stuff that I have purchased but I would be a lot appreciative if they send out a notice notifying the customers of these delays. It makes me less worry of such things because I payed it with my own hard money and getting rip off is not a good thing for the company itself in the future. And there is in no way would I ever trust a company or a dealer/rep again if they stole my money for their own purposes..It's like if I learn my lesson of being scammed once, then why would I fall for it again, the second time? It's just human nature....I can't express any more than saying we don't tend to fall for the same trick if it happened before.

 

yes, a most fair comment. Looks like this will be a something that no one will know the exact truth, so the best version of the 'truth' will win.

 

I have to say, though, at the risk of posting an unpopular opinion: I find it funny when Dollzone owners have Boycott Leeke signatures. Because of the two companies, one of them has done *actual* recasts, and it wasn't Leeke...

Now, I OWN both Dollzone and Leeke dolls, so I'm not making a judgement call on Dollzone owners here. And I would never, ever buy the Leeke doll that was 'too heavily inspired' so to speak, and I'd never, ever buy any of the actual Dollzone recasts, even if they were irresistibly cheap. But I don't think one mistake taints the entire line, especially if they learn from it. Ethics regarding 'inspiration' and 'copying' are different in other countries (although a bootleg is ALWAYS a bootleg.)

But I guess that just goes to show how hobby expectations change over time. At the time of the Dollzone copying issue, there WERE a lot of calls to entirely boycott the company. And every new release of theirs WAS suspect to be a copy. I remember when people thought Megi was a MNF El copy, even after I posted pictures of the two actual dolls together and they looked nothing like each other. So I suspect, in time, people will be like "Leeke copied? When did that happen?"

 

I agree completely!

 

How can being different mean that you must have copied? Surely if you DIDN'T copy there wouldn't be anything like it out there. Especially if you where really that different. I do believe in parallel evolution. So i can believe that two doll companies decided that they would make a pear shaped doll.

However there are several examples of someone being pear shaped. Also even with that the other proportions would also differ. But the difference between the Leekeworld and the Dust of Dolls is minor, to none. Even the way the chose to do the joints is the same. There is too much in common IMO for them not to be a copy.

Especailly Leekeworld where known to have seen the dust of dolls doll before they made theirs. Since at a doll convention they where next to each other.

 

OK. I've spent the last two hours watching Eurovision - which will explain a lot to those in Europe and mean nothing to those outside.

Please could we agree to differ to the DoD/Leeke debate? Some people see minor differences - others see major ones. Surely it's time to let it be. Please.

 

This is a debate thread. People are going to want to say their two cents. It is why DoA has them. When someone gets sick of it they are free to move else where. I have done that a lot on here actually.

 

I have pointed no fingers and made no accusations. I stated that I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to the Püns/Mikhaila case happens. When that case happened I was surprised as I just don't expect a well-established company to be so heavily inspired on the work of others that they keep other artists' work on the work bench beyond the initial design phase, but I won't be surprised in the theoretical case of it happening again. Stating my emotional state in a theoretical event is not an accusation.
I would be very surprised if it turns out if the creator of the Dollshe dolls sculpted his design very closely after the design of another artist, but after it has happened once I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again. I was surprised when Charles of Charles Creature Cabinet made a terrible mess and ruined a company that had a bright future, but I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to repeat the same mess. It does not have to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does. This because the first event makes clear one is capable of a certain action I had not expected them to do.

This thread is about forgiving companies or sellers too easily or the opposite. I tried to make the point clear that a damaged reputation colours people's perceptions and may do so in a negative way.

 

I don't know if Charles has started repaying his debts yet, but he seems to have come out with yet another doll - http://www.jpopdolls.net/store/product.php?productid=2538&cat=320&page=1

And it really sucks that we can't talk about it, because an elephant with a jointed trunk!? But it's his own fault, I guess. Does anyone know what the situation is with him?


With Leeke, there have been Ent/Dryad type dolls before , from Impldoll and Domuya, so they may have gotten the idea from them. And the transulcent blushed resin could be inspired by Soom's fairies and such. But Leeke's are different enough that I don't think people can say they were copies this time.

 

To my knowledge, Charles just walked away from the mess. Supposedly the last release was to help him begin paying people back but there are still a lot of people who paid for face-ups, double shipping etc who haven't been repaid.

 

I would not say that doing something similar is wrong. The hooved legs made by ResinSoul for the doll Yao is different from the hooved legs Soom made for their Beryl. In both cases it concerns hooved legs, but it is clear that both were sculpted with a different design as a reference even when Yao was released after Beryl.
The idea of "ent" dolls has been done by three companies at the moment (and perhaps even more), but each doll has their own design. You can't claim copyrights to an idea, but you can when it concerns your design.