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Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

Mar 6, 2011

    1. As someone who ordered from Felix doll, fought 3 months to get my doll and did so, posted a warning about them on a yahoo group only to see someone say "oh I can't resist a sale" and order, I think people can't resist a bargain. Of course, I'm one of those people at present, just look at my signature. I've currently ordered in the Dollshe sale in spite of knowing they were six months behind on orders for the pure body. But I freely admit that. I am relying on they fact that they run behind in the past and caught up. Plus they have been in this business for a very long time. I've also ordered from Bimong so depending on who you believe in the Dollfair/Bimong saga, could also be viewed as putting my money in a risky company. I won't however order from customhouse, been there, done that and until they sort themselves out, I feel it is too risky. I can't blame anyone else for doing it but always suggest they use credit card balance so they have additional time after the paypal guarantee runs out. CCC had a very good reputation for a while and when it went bad, it went bad fast. Would I ever order from him - no. The dolls people received had flaws, were damaged, they were missing face-ups and items. Doesn't lead me to believe that any new orders would be any different. I would only ever buy his dolls secondhand until he had established a good reputation. Yes, I think that people can redeem their reputation, it takes a lot of work but I would never knowingly buy from a company that had defrauded its customers and failed to repay monies owed. I will never deal with Dollfair because I have yet to see any proof that she sent money to Bimong. If she was able to supply that proof, I would feel very differently.
       
    2. I haven't unlimited money for my hobby, so I wouldn't like to make risky orders. If seller has "black blot" on his reputation I would prefer don't deal with him. Waiting for order is very stressful for me and if I didn't receive ordered doll or other items I would be very-very-very upset. It would make me unhappiest women in the world. I can't find right word for describing how dissapointing it may be.

      So, I would prefer make more expensive, but more reliable order. I want get ordered items and I ready pay for guarantees
       
    3. THANK YOU! <3 And just because it's art doesn't mean the buyer should be a door mat.

      To take it one step further, it's because we're a "family" that we need to look out for each other. I don't know about you guys, but my local doll group isn't very big. We're all pretty close. So when a company with a shoddy background releases a new sculpt I post about it on our board with a big old WARNING note. I'm certainly not going to prevent anybody from purchasing from that company. I just want to make sure they're making an informed decision.

      FWIW I would purchase from a company if they managed to prove themselves. Remember when Impldoll first got started? Many people (including myself) accused them of copying sculpts. Now they're releasing completely unique sculpts. They've proven that they can run a business on their own.
       
    4. one thing ive learned is never throw good money after bad, its just not worth it. <3 i do however forgive very easily, but remain cautiously optimistic!
       
    5. I think that doll companies, just like people, should get a second chance when they admit they did wrong and don't want to do it again. They shouldn't get a second chance to simply get away with it again.
      If a company/seller is bending over backwards to fix the problem, it's different than when a company.seller just wants to continue and make more money.

      If it considers scammers, I won't deal with them. If it considers a seller or a company involved in unresolved transactions, I'm very reluctant to deal with them even if they would crawl through the dust begging for forgiveness. (Actively working on resolving unresolved transactions is the best way to ask for forgiveness, though.) In this hobby it concerns dolls. Those are things that I want, but do not need. I can get a pretty doll elsewhere from someone with a good reputation and a lot of stress less for me.

      A lot of people have common sense. They don't get involved with a company when things look fishy. It's just that the group of people who support an artist or company unconditionally appears so much larger than it actually is (they leave a bigger impression than people who don't get involved) and this may make it look like that the community as a whole is very forgiving.
       
    6. Same! I wonder if he hopes everyone has forgotten he owes a lot of money to people. I hope he's using the profit from his new dolls to refund those who want it, but I highly doubt that.

      I'd forgive a problematic company if they've cleared all their debts and are producing and shipping like normal companies again. But that would take time, and it's definitely wise to use the quote "Once bitten, twice shy". On the other hand, if the company throws a hissy fit and blames other people for their mistakes... uh, no way in hell.
       
    7. I think there's a need to distinguish clearly between Personal matters and Business matters, and understand how to respond accordingly. Of course, behind every Business is a Person/some People, and a Business is naturally subject to the rises and falls of those People. It's a given that People have their own lives, which at the end of the day, are more important and immediate than Business. But at the same time, a Business has responsibilities, standards and expectations to maintain, and results to deliver to Others/Customers. Thus the expectations of the Customers towards the Business and the Business-Person should be completely different and separate.

      So if a Person represents a Business, they have to deal with Others/Customers at a Business level. It is completely irresponsible to switch gears out of the blue and start treating Customers at a Personal level, or letting a Personal response supersede the proper Business response. Likewise, the Customer -- no matter how well they know the Business-Person on a personal level -- should not conflate the two and treat the Business-Person at a Personal level when they should rightly be approaching them at a Business level.

      I'm only an observer reading DoA threads, I've never had dealings with CCC/Dollfair/other problem sellers, but I've noticed that Personal vs Business tends to get blurry in the BJD community. (Not implicating anyone particularly, just making observations.) For many reasons: the community is small, niche and tightly-knit, there are few "standard/business practices" across the board (which is hard to achieve when you have both large companies and cottage industries/independent designers involved in the hobby), there is a significant investment of oneself (ie. money, time, effort) into the hobby, the time/money between making the investment and seeing the result can get very large, and "hobby outcomes" tend to be quite subjective (ie. face-ups/blushing, finding the "perfect doll" or "perfect look", lots of emotions tied up in dolls, etc). So it is not hard for both customers and designers to "drift" between the Personal and Business when dealing with each other.

      About the problem BJD designers: On my part, yes, I do understand that the People behind the Businesses have lives, and do get into strife and depression. And I sympathize -- hey, I'm a person with a life, too. But I'll only sympathize with them on a Personal level. These People also represent a Business. I do not sympathize with a Business; rather, I expect, require, and demand a Business to fulfill its obligation to me as a Customer. If the Business fails to deliver the goods, it's lost my favour as a Customer and will probably not regain it until it shows itself to be what I expect it to be. As a fellow Person, I'd be disappointed toward the Business-Person, but no more: I understand life does get you down and I wish you well. But you will not get me as a Customer until the Business regains its reputation.

      (By the way -- with due respect to rkold, I think the use of "forgiveness" is another conflation of Personal vs Business. :sweat I forgive a Person, but I hold accounts with a Business. I as a Person may no longer hold a grudge toward the Business-Person for wronging me by not delivering the goods, but as a Customer I still hold the Business accountable for not delivering the goods, and may withdraw my Customer support as a result.
      @rkold: I apologize for putting you on the spot! It's not personal. :sweat )


      TL;DR -- I think it is important for each of us to take a hard, impersonal look at where the boundary between Personal and Business is, and work out how to respond accordingly to the Business, and the People behind the business.
       
    8. Wow, lose internet for a while and then have to take care of your baby lol

      You're not putting me on the spot, I used the term "forgiveness" because I think a lot of people do see themselves as having a personal relationship with resellers/face-up artists/companies/etc. In fact, I think some companies thrive on trying to make you see yourself as more than a customer. (Volks for example) So to me, it felt like an appropriate word more than just holding sellers accountable. I mean look at Charles from CCC, I think so many people have wanted to try to forgive him or see his perspective because they don't just see him as a company and see him as something more.

      I'd not heard about the Ringdoll issues or would have included them as an example.

      I admit, what really started me thinking was the CCC case. I was a little horrified when I saw the News Thread on the subject. CCC is a particularly egregious example in certain respects, but then we have someone like say Mio. Mio use to regularly take 6-7 months to produce her clothing. Having owned some myself, they are/were exquisite, but were we as a community too forgiving of Mio which lead to so many people losing money when she vanished? Or face-up artists like Rabiruna. If I remember, a few people waited 6+ months for their heads from her with little or no communication. Are experiences like that forgivable or warning signs of a future problem?

      I recently was in a group order for Everpurple Eyes and ended up waiting nearly my entire pregnancy to receive them. The situation makes me really leery of ever ordering from them again no matter how affordable their eyes are in a group order. The eyes were the quality I expected, but the wait was not.

      I too have had a slightly bad experience. Many years ago I was in a group order for Enchanted Doll eyes. After asking about the order 3 months in, I was assured that everything was fine. And when another month passed with no word or eyes, I defended our organizer when people began to question what was going on. But when she refused to respond to PMs and emails, I began to get upset and it turned out something had gone wrong with the order and our eyes were not being produced. Everyone in the group had their money returned, but it was 6 months post first giving her our money. It was a difficult situation and I admit at times I felt like those of us waiting were not getting any sympathy because the organizer was a popular and well known member of the community. It also irked me when people posted in the thread asking when this person would be running a future group order.

      But then I've also seen some pretty surprising things (Yes, I lurk the problem transaction section of the forum.) I remember one member who vanished for over a year plus and then suddenly reappeared to refund all monies to the people who had not received the goods she had thought they had received months ago.
       
    9. I definitely see your point, and I think that's where the line is prone to getting blurry. From what I've observed of Volks (visiting LA Sumika, and reading DoA threads about the Dolpas and other events that I've not attended), part of their Business ethic is treating Customers on the Personal level. But they have also maintained high standards of Business practice that no other doll designer has come close to matching on such a broad level. The fact that a company/designer makes an effort to develop a Personal relationship with Customers by NO means absolves them from the responsibility of carrying out a proper Business relationship with Customers. Which is what makes Volks so impressive to me: they are able to accomplish both so successfully!

      No matter how personally we (as hobbyists) approach these dolls and the acquisition process, at the end of the day, it is still a Business transaction and must be treated as such. At least, that's the way I see it. In my mind, Personal and Business are two completely different categories with different expectations, so I think it is possible to sympathize with the plight/troubles of the designer whilst maintaining a harder, uncompromising stance towards their business. I think this will also clear up a lot of angst about leaving critical/negative/realistic feedback concerning a seller: feedback is purely a Business matter, and should be treated as such without bringing in the Personal.


      I suppose one has to examine both the designer's quoted policies (ie. what kind of goods/services they'll deliver to the Customer), and their past performances, and decide for oneself what expectations to have if I want to become a Customer of this Business. From what I recall of the issue with Mio (just by following the Problem Transaction thread -- someone who's been burnt by her may disagree with me!), she's historically taken months to make clothing, so I speculate customers would have gone in expecting to wait months as per usual. When she did not deliver after months, some customers bailed, some stayed in and were hopeful. I don't know if Mio had a definitive Business policy (again, I think standard practices are hard to achieve given the range of designers in the hobby), but everyone seemed to have made their decisions based on her past practices and the perceived risks involved in receiving their items.

      "Forgivable or warning signs of a future problem?" I don't know. Ultimately, there are always risks in any business transaction. I guess one must examine the business practice and past performance, decide whether this transaction is worth the potential risk, and then decide for oneself what to do when things go south...
       
    10. I'm going to jump in here with my own (slightly ongoing) experience. I ordered a Ringdoll Wagashi boy back in November as part of the Christmas event. The Wagashi headmold was one of the first dolls to really take my breath away, and I feel in love from day one.The resin was beautiful in photographs, owners had nothing but good things to say about the company, I was sure that this was a going to be a perfectly normal order. I put him on a 6 month layaway (I was out of a job, and the payments were the most I could afford at the time). In December, bam- Ringdoll is changing the resin color that we all love so much, and I wondered if I would still like my boy. The only picture that were of the new colors I hated. I felt upset that they would just suddenly change something that made their dolls so special, and I contacted them through their facebook account to see what might could be done. Thye answered back no problem, they could made my doll in the old color, but then said twice "your doll is while skin, yes?" both times I responded that my boy was normal skin, but the FB conversation just ended after the second- just gone suddenly. I sort of wondered if my boy might show up in white skin...

      Fast forward to January. My monthly payment comes around (and I have a job by now), and just as a matter of course I ask MoC (who I ordered through) when they think my boy will be here (at the time, payments could not be made before they were due, so I wanted to make sure I wouldn't be waiting a month to pay him off and get him home if he came in soon) and they say they aren't sure, it may be a little bit longer, so don't worry and just keep on the 6 moth layaway. I did, everything is cool, I could wait- no problems yet. But then, a few weeks go by, and in seeing what others are saying (and their own (lack of) responses from the company) and watching things happen, I start to get a bad feeling. March comes, and I'm worried- I'm beginning to wonder just when I will get my doll. Two weeks later, and I know something is up, and just after that, MoC sends an email saying that they can't get any response from Ringdoll, and that they are offering me a refund, if I want it.

      So I had a decide- stay or walk? I loved this doll when I ordered him, but things aren't looking so good, and it may be awhile before he ever comes, I might not even like him when he comes. On one side of the coin, I still wanted this boy, and didn't want to put MoC in a position that they would loose money from the sale (I have no idea how stuff like this get handled- I'm sure they can't just say, oh hey don't send us dolls X, Y&Z, those people canceled cause you couldn't get your act together.) and have this custom-ish doll (girl head, boy body, custom faceup) that they might not be able to sell. On the other side, I had no idea when (if) he would get here, or the shape he would be in, and that was quite scary.

      I ended up canceling my order, and bought another (very different:sweat) doll with the money that I had already paid into my layaway (from MoC). To me, even though I really wanted the doll, the fact that the company just disappeared, and then gave one excuse after the other (some more believable than others) just put me off, and I felt the risk outweighed any positives. Not communicating or making excuses is the number one way to tick me off and loose my patronage.

      I thought about it for a bit, and realized that even though the best thing was to cancel (and I will stick by that), I did still want the doll- it near broke my heart to take his name off my doll family thing in my bio, and trying to tell Winter that Pine wan't coming after all- I nearly cried- even though they are both dolls! I wrote to MoC in the end and said that if the doll ever did come in, I would still be interested in buying him, but totally understood if that wasn't possible- it would be like having my cake and eating it too (I got to cancel my order, get another doll, and hey, the old doll did come in, so bonus!- not what I wanted to come across as). I'll honestly be ok if I can't purchase him... though I do intend to wait and see how the whole thing plays out. If he comes in, I'll buy him (I feel that I owe it to MoC to do so, and I do still like&want him), if he doesn't or I can't purchase him, ok, I'll go from there. If Ringdoll can pull themselves back together and rebuild a history of quality, then I would make another order through MoC for him. If they can't pull themselves back together or go the business goes under, hey at least I was able to cancel (though I would probably stalk the MP for a second hand doll).

      I would be willing to forgive the company, in summary, but only if they were able to show that they could come back and put out a quality product, and respect their customers enough to fulfill orders in a timely fashion. If however for some reason they came back and did ok for a time and then suddenly started acting like this again, it would be over, no more chances.

      That got a bit long... sorry. I just wanted to put out there how I felt...Its an ongoing and current topic for me, so I wanted to be able to chronicle how it happened in my eyes, and how I felt to respond to it.
       
    11. In the RD defense, I have dealt with them in the past, and this is highly unusual behavior for them. And, the fact that they ARE shipping now, as someone I know got her outfit, wig, and gun she had ordered back last year, tells me they are probably just swamped with everything. I will stand by their side, until my Chai comes home. I would not even start to compare RD to CCC just yet, as it hasn't even been a month since they stopped communicating. Their accident happened in the end of Feb, and it's just the middle of March. Reading of CCC's problems, and the fact they're bringing out new dolls now, infuriates me. In my mind, it's almost a double standard. RD's only been around for two years, and the moment they have one problem, some are jumping to conclusions that they are a horrible company, yet, in the WR, there was someone who mentioned that SOOM has slow response time due to the sheer volume of dolls they make. Personally, myself and a friend have had more problems with LUTS than RD currently. So, unless RD proves that they aren't the kind of company I want to deal with, I'll keep working with them. I'm just concerned with what's going on, with two staff that had to be hospitalized, one being their English speaker, and with the THOUSANDS of emails, notes, and whatnot that they have probably backing up and clogging the server, I'm expecting a wait to hear from them. I know I sound biased, but, I'm basing my faith in them off of my past experience with them. I will forgive them after this, because I have seen RD's products first hand, and love it. [/rant off]

      --EDC
       
    12. Personally I can never trust such company or person again. That's just me. For example. I'd never ever look into DZ products because they copied SD16 boy body off Volks at the beginning. No matter what DZ does I will never ever forgive them for it. Bootlegging is unforgivable.

      However, overall I think community here is pretty forgiving and gives too much benefit of a doubt. I don't think it is necessarily a good thing in my opinion but that's just me.
       
    13. Not reading whole thread so sorry if this is repeating something already said or whatevers X3

      Do we as BJD owners tend to forgive companies/sellers too easily? I don't think so, I think it's more the opposite is true to be honest. With such a lot of money tied up in this hobby, not to mention the emotional attachment most of us have to our dolls, I find that often all it can take is a single big mistake to end your good reputation. I'm not criticising it, because as I say we are usually dealing with a lot of money (even clothes commissions can often run into the hundreds of dollars mark, after all) but sometimes I do feel a tiny bit like wanting to give people a chance to change - though only one :XD:


      If you think we do forgive too easily, why is it? (we're used to long waits from respectable companies, we just really want whatever is being sold, the price is too hard to resist, etc.) I can only really talk from my own perspective here... I do forgive quite easily, even when it comes to this hobby. If, for example, an individual had amazing feedback and then suddenly vanished from the face of the earth taking people's money with them but then returned and resolved their outstanding transactions one way or another then I'd be happy to take the chance and order from them. Simply put, this is because life happens. Sometimes something life-altering will knock you for six and you have to lie low until it blows over. It's not good practice by any means, and personally I'd have to finish my transactions before doing something like that, but everyone handles things differently. That said... I watch the problem transactions forum quite avidly, and all too often I see 'something big came up' or 'I got sick' or whatever being used as a get out of responsibility free card which detracts horribly from those who have genuine reasons.

      Would you as an individual ever buy from someone who had previously left other buyers high and dry for more than a year? Yes, and I have done. I recently bought a doll from Custom House in one of their time sales and, I confess, I knew full well about the issues that other people had been having. The thing is, the doll is a gift for a very close friend and although I wanted to get him for her I also didn't exactly have a massive amount of money to spend - and would definitely NOT trust CH with a layaway. As it was such a small amount of money (comparatively with other doll purchases :XD:) I was willing to risk it and also made my friend aware that there was a damn good chance she'd be waiting over a year just for him to ship. I had to give them three friendly nudges just reminding them about my doll before they shipped him in a condition that I would consider only a tiny bit below what I'd expect of a reputable company. If they keep this level of service up (and clear their damn backlog -_-) I'd probably order from them again as they have a few moulds I really like. But I wouldn't order for myself again until I knew they were really working to sort themselves out.

      Is there anyway someone who has left their buyers hanging for a year plus can ever repair their reputation and regain our trust? I don't see why not. It'd be extremely hard work, but 'never say never' ;) I am a believer in second chances, but I don't believe in just handing those out like sweeties. You want to regain my trust and repair your reputation? Work your ass off for it :3
       
    14. Do we as BJD owners tend to forgive companies/sellers too easily?

      Since I'm still fairly new at all of this, I'm very careful to check feedback threads on individuals and companies before I consider buying. I'm not sure I would want the hassle of dealing with a company or person who had consistent negative feedback. If it's one negative out of, say, 100 positive, then I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt - because you really can't please everyone.

      It's like eBay. I won't buy from a person who received a large percentage of negative feedback and I would be extremely wary of a person who consistently gave negative feedback.

      Would you as an individual ever buy from someone who had previously left other buyers high and dry for more than a year?

      It would honestly depend. If the incident happened years ago and they have since proven themselves to be reliable, I may consider it. If the company/person currently has people on their waiting list who've been there a year, I would not even give them the time of day.

      Is there anyway someone who has left their buyers hanging for a year plus can ever repair their reputation and regain our trust?

      It starts with one person. One person to give them a chance. Positive experience? It will lead others to give them a chance. So on and so forth. However, I doubt I'd be one of the first ones.
       
    15. I think that some people want a product so badly that they're willing to overlook any sketchy behavior on the company/artist's part, no matter how egregious. I'm not a terribly emotional collector, so for me it's easy to say that I would never buy a doll from a company that engaged in such behavior, no matter how much I liked the sculpt. I can find another pretty doll elsewhere. But for others, it might not be so easy. If someone has convinced themselves that only a certain sculpt will work for a character, or that no one could possibly make a more perfect doll than a certain company, then that person is far more likely to forgive or ignore a company's indiscretions. Unfortunately, that just exacerbates the problem--if a company can defraud buyers, or provide horrid customer service, and people still line up down the block to purchase their product, then there's really no impetus for them to change their ways (see Exhibit A, Customhouse).
       
    16. I am completely unflexible when it comes to planning/executing a purchase from a company - they have negative feedback, I don't buy from them. I do extensive research to ensure that I can expect to be treated fairly as a customer and that the product will be as described. There are companies that I refuse to buy from/support. If they have recasted dolls in the past, treated a customer rudely when a simple product arose, displayed blatant disrespect for other artists and creators, or outright stole money, they do not get my business - simple as that. Take Dollzone for an example: in their early days they directly copied other dolls, from Volks and Luts in particular. Even if I liked their dolls or needed products unique to them (which with this company, frankly, I don't find to be high enough quality to be worth buying anyway), they displayed such blatant disrespect to the original artists and companies that I can't take them seriously, and supporting them is out of the question.

      If a company on my 'blacklist' has something I dearly want, I find that with a bit of research I am able to either find it second hand (which does not benefit the maker) or there is another company that is offering something comparable in price and quality - if not equal or better! To me, it is unacceptable and irresponsible to support companies who have bad business practices (especially in instances of theft, whether it is of a sculpt or of money), and there is no excuse to support them when there are very many alternatives out there. The only bending of my rules is in the situation of questionable/slow/poor customer service, as it is relatively rare for me to have to use Q&A boards or contact the company about my orders. If a company has feedback that says, "Expect a pre-made, useless response if you try and email them", I'll be soured on them but order nonetheless, and if a situation does arise in which I need communication, it is not a surprise and a solution/suggestion for resolution is likely to be found on the forums.

      As for dealing with individual community members, I apply the same rule: bad feedback, no business. I do, however, expand my blacklist to include members of the community who I am not particularly fond of (whether they've made ridiculous comments on the forum or elsewhere, have displayed childish behavior, have poor grammar, have absolutely offensive taste, etc). While this might be considered petty and elitist by some, I would again like to state that with the market being so large, that it's no great consequence to have to pass up items by someone I don't want to deal with - and no doubt, someone who isn't as picky as me will be happy to buy it instead!

      I think the ABJD community on a whole is too forgiving when it comes to bad business, and I feel in a lot of instances, this tendency to overlook bad practices or behaviors stems from way back when there were only a few companies, and if you wanted something your only chance of getting it was to order direct - leading to people generating the excuse that since these companies were run by people, genuinely capable of error, we had better forgive and forget or we don't get anything at all. While that may have worked back then, flawed as it was, it seems to have carried on in the blood of the community and now people are overly accepting and forgiving in the face of dishonesty and financial abuse. DoA has been great on cracking down on bad companies and buyers/sellers, which I think is wonderful - while they have no obligation to protect their members, it is definitely encouraging to see that bad business is discouraged and that they are diminishing the potential of people thinking, "Well, if they got away with it, so could I." Of course, this is all my opinion, experience, and speculation.

      To date, my decisions regarding business partners have served me incredibly well. In the many years I've been doing business in the hobby, with many dolls coming and going and thousands of dollars spent, I have had no negative feedback and have nearly always enjoyed dealing with my buyers and sellers. The very few issues I have had in transactions were easily fixed and resulted in satisfactory outcomes for both parties.
       
    17. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had issues with my RD order as well. I chose to take the refund MoC offered me. I find it funny they have time to release new products but can't ship dolls ordered as far back as October......but we'll leave this one alone, as I have a feeling it's going to become a very touch subject especially to RD fans.

      Fairyland is by far my most favorite company to deal with. No matter how swamped they are with orders, they always find time to respond to my messages in a timely, respectable fashion. Honestly, I'd rather see someone not responding to messages as long as the dolls are coming out, which in the case of RD, they aren't. I'm gun-shy. I will never buy anything on pre-order from Ringdoll, though I may still consider second hand or in-stock items. I'm sure as my experiences within the bjd community go expand I'll have to re-evaluate my thoughts. The wait from FL is killing me, but their wonderful customer service makes it all that much more bearable.
       
    18. I'm all for giving second chances, but for me it has to be on a case by case basis, and only under certain conditions. While I ordered from Custom House without any problems, it was years ago. However I would not order from them now because they don't seem to have their business straightened out, and it looks to me as if their current dolls are not of the same level of quality as those made in the past.

      As for CCC, I know now that I was very very lucky to receive the first edition Bubu that I ordered on layaway directly from Charles' site. At the time, the fact that my tracking number didn't work didn't really raise a red flag with me because I had experienced package tracking system delays in the past...from other overseas shippers. Anyway, when I expressed concern that my Bubu had been lost in shipment, Charles insisted that he'd follow-up on his end, and soon after my doll arrived. Now I know that my early experience was a warning of things to come.

      Would I order from CCC directly again? No. Would I consider ordering a CCC item from a reputable dealer? Yes.

      The resaon why I'd be willing to give the company, verses the individual a second chance is because of the others connected to the CCC company. Afterall, it wasn't just Charles that went down in flames when he trashed both his business and personal reputation, there are the other employees and those that were under contract with CCC to consider too.

      It should also be noted that there has been some resolution for many of those who ordered. But this was all due to some amazing efforts of a small group in the CCC waiting room, culminating in one courageous DoA member in the Netherlands going and retrieving dolls and other items from Charles' house. I would feel differently if Charles himself had stepped up and done the fulfillment of the outstanding orders himself.
       
    19. It looks like Charles Stephan is really trying to make good on all his debts -- it seems he has begun to ship dolls to all his back orders. I really hope he pulls himself out of the hole he dug.

      His dolls absolutely slay me!
       
    20. I wouldn't consider Charles forgivable unless making good on his debts includes refunding shipping to the people he defrauded of their shipping money, and compensating for faceups and outfits never received, and so forth. I would definitely consider anyone who ordered from him now far too forgiving, and the cooing over him on flickr made me queasy. But I guess it's easier for me to say because I find his dolls too kitsch to be personally appealing, and people who love his dolls might put wanting them over worrying about the people who were cheated by him.