Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

It's my understanding that the "new CCC dolls/piggy" was actualy produced during the who CCC debachale but were never released (hence why there were only a handful of them) and is therefore not a new sculpt/release. It irritates me to read the news thread with others "yelling with their pitchforks and torches in hands" about the nerve he has to try and sell dolls here on DoA. I believe it was some other DoA member that posted about the "new doll" in the news thread not Charles as he has been banned. I think it was best to provide the links to the feedback section, waiting room and wiki for further information on issues. But to actually make me feel that I would certainly burn in hell if I would ever consider buying one of these dolls was totally uncalled for. And that is exactly the tone that was taken in the news release thread.

I wasn't involved in the whole CCC mess but I did follow it as I dearly love a lot of his sculpts. I managed to get the last hippo from DDE before CCC went under, it did not come with a face up or any other things. I love her. I also managed to get a Firefly off the MP and love having her too. Would I have liked a new piggy? Yes, she's cute. Did I get one? No. Would I like to see new scultps? Absolutely. Does Charles need to do a lot more in the way of reparation/restitution? You'd better believe it. And I think he has started to make an attempt. I saw where DDE received a new shipment of dolls from CCC and I believe that they are all sold out too. I think he still needs to send them all previous orders as well. If he can keep doing that, I will certainly be buying me some more creatures as they are truly magical.

I've also been following the Dollfair/Bimong affair. I haven't ordered a doll from either of them but would like to own a Narae. I'm grateful that there are members who really go above and beyond the call to post links for info on filing fraud charges, reporting companies to agencies etc. At the beginning there were members who staunchly stood by Dollfair, however as things got worse and Dollfair wasn't actully sending any products or refunds or communicating, those same members also came forward and offered apologies for taking her side. I have a more informed opinion regarding this situation. Again grateful for the community here and helping to save me money and heartache.

I think if people want to forgive an individual/company they should be allowed to do so without the fear of being harassed or made to feel bad for it later. For myself I have found that holding onto hatred and bad feelings towards someone does me absolutely no good. It only brings me down and makes me a more angry/hateful person. If I can forgive someone I will. Maybe not forget, but if I can forgive it certainly is much better for my own well being.

 

He's also selling stuff that was paid for by his customers right under the noses of those customers. That's tacky at best. He still has a long way to go and a lot of uncompleted orders to fix.

 

The way I read it was that the new pig was banned regardless of when it was actually created. The mod wording in the news thread says "THIS SCULPT AND ALL FUTURE SCULPTS" are banned because Charles himself has a forum ban.

I also didn't see any comment in the news thread where a potential buyer was told they would burn in hell nor anything resembling pitchforks and torches. People were a little shocked considering that there are still outstanding orders that haven't been sent or customers reimbursed.

If I understand what you said correctly, instead of working to make the dolls that people ordered from his already available sculpts, he was making this new pig? If I were a customer waiting on one of the Bailey Rose Brownies, I'd be pretty ticked to find out that my doll never got made but instead he "started over" on a new pig.

 

Though I did have some problems with placing my order from RD, I went asking around some of the distributors that I deal with ( who also deal for RingDoll) to see if this sort of thing was typical, and they said that it wasn't. Even my favorite company to deal with ( AOD) still owes me one doll and two event heads that I paid for in December but were unable to begin working on before the Chinese New Year. Now that they're back, the doll and head will be finished soon and hopefully shipped out. True, I haven't heard anything from them aside from "we're back and working on it", but after the Chinese New Year it isn't unheard of for most companies to have a giant influx of orders that they have to work through to catch up with. It's for that reason that I told myself I wouldn't order during the New Year, so I tried to place my order after when RingDoll had posted they would be back, but it ended up being a week later. The way I see it, it's really my fault for ordering during a time when I knew things would be busy.

As for the "new releases" from RD during this time, they're just re-releases of previous sculpts using different clothes than the military outfits. It had been said on the threads that RD would be discontinuing the military outfits soon, so they're just posting up the new version and marking the old version as "sold out" so they won't have to e-mail people sending new orders to say "Oh, we're sorry but the full-set for this doll isn't available anymore."

With orders coming out of RD recently, it seems that they really are trying to work through their back orders. The box openings for the recently received dolls look to be of nice quality, so it seems that RD has just been taking their time to insure that their items that go out are what people paid for. You can't be angry at a company for such quality control.

I don't mean by any means to "defend" RD, as everyone who has dealt with them during this time has a right to be angry, but I don't think lack of communication for a little over a month is enough to consider them anywhere near the problem levels of CCC and CH.

 

Yes, but as a company, Ringdoll have been quietly belligerent since they opened. Not sending out free gifts and certificates of authenticy when both were promised (Which happened to me), stealing people's owner photography and posting it as advertising on doll boards (Once again, happened to me!), Posting fake reviews on boards... There's a reason why Ringdoll reps have been banned from DoA. Ringdoll sculpts may be gorgeous, but the quiet disrespect that they as a company have shown for their customers have turned me off from them completely. So much so that it's affected my love for my Ringdoll. (I was in tears after I saw they had stolen my photos.) I must also say I'm honestly not surprised that their production standards are slipping. I've been waiting for that to happen for a while.

The CH and CCC stuff is a different kettle of fish entirely. I would never, ever trust either of these companies with my money after I've heard the horror stories that have come out of the woodwork.

Companies like Leeke and Luts who have had dodgy moments, but on the whole seem to be reliable, well, I'll buy from them, but I will boycott them when their business practices get shady. (Like now, Leeke. >_>) If a company makes a doll that resembles someone else's intellectual property I'll think twice before buying it, but how much resemblance is neccessary and how general the character type is also affect my consideration. This is more of a case-by-case basis. (For example, I'd have bought that Soom Idelian that resembled D in a moment because D's fairly generic for a vampire hunter, but the Ringdoll Judges is a doll I never would have bought as a fullset, nor would I buy their Norman.)

Final point: If a doll company has ever, ever recasted any part of another company's doll, even if they have fixed the doll later, I would never buy one of their dolls. I might buy clothes/shoes/accessories, but never a doll.

 

I'll just say that I disagree with your views on this issue. I believe if your stance is to be against anything not 100% from the mind of the bjd artist, then you shouldn't support any homage dolls rather than picking and choosing. Why the Idealian over the Judges? I'll be honest, I'm ordering a Judges based on a character I've been role-playing for years.. a redhead who wields a chainsaw, and wielded it long before Grell ever came onto the anime scene. If a part of the outfit is what causes the ZOMGcopyright cries, then why not contemplate ordering the doll nude? there's no requirement to buy any doll fullset, after all. besides, as surreality pointed out, the outfit of the D Idealian isn't exact, neither is the Judges ,Norman, or even the Jessica ( a lot of people seem to forget about her, though she was a homage to American McGee's Alice), so truthfully, none of them ar exact rip-offs of anyone's ideals and as has been discussed in many other threads about the issue, "inspired by" works are completely legal. However, this isn't the place to argue over such things, so can we merely agree to disagree? It seems that every company has released atleast one doll or outfit that's caused a bit of controversy amongst the community.

The only point I wish to express is that true, RingDoll has it problems, as does Leeke and many other companies, but I do not believe that means that they are on par with the issues surrounding CCC or CH. People have been waiting for their orders with those companies for up to a year, with no idea if they'll get their dolls or if they'll even be able to get a refund, and yet those companies are still having major sales to get in new business and new orders without paying back the refunds they already owe.

I suppose when it comes to forgiveness, people are quite different and their reasons to forgive or not to forgive are quite different. I guess if one wanted it in a more defined fashion, one's willingness to forgive is based upon one's own past experiences, beliefs and morals in regards to a company. If someone has had generally good experiences or seen/heard mostly good experiences about the company, they'll be more likely to forgive. In contrast, those with bad experiences or find faults with products in the company will be less likely to forgive them.

I personally will never ever buy anything from CH, regardless of their sales because of how they've strung their customers along, but I am certain that someone, somewhere will disagree with me. This is the internet, after all.

 

Except that it really isn't. At all. D wore a dance unitard of sorts as a bodysuit and it was often depicted as one piece from the soles of the boots up in some of the more stylized works, and there's not a trace of such a thing in the Soom release. Sorry. It's fairly spot on to Van Helsing, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Seriously: http://animemedia.ign.com/anime/ima...r-d-special-edition-20071108034938881-000.jpg -- look. Now look at this again with its printed fabrics, total lack of shoulder spikes or skintight bodysuit: http://dollsoom.com/eng/shop/item.php?it_id=1292811132

There's another debate thread specifically for this, but by gods, it rankles the pants off of my inner costumer to see people insist this is identical when it just isn't. Obviously inspired by, sure, but it's not identical by miles, certainly no more so than the other outfits people have discussed here where every difference is pointed out in stark detail. Seriously.

Where are the shoulder spikes?

How about that open front on the Idealian, not seeing that on D either. (Mmmmmmm, the 70s saw that vest comin' a mile away.)

How's about the fact that the Idealian is wearing a jacket, and D is wearing a cape? (http://www.altfg.com/Stars/v/vampire-hunter-d-bloodlust.jpg) Without sleeves? Which jackets have? http://download.minitokyo.net/Vampire.Hunter.D.92176.jpg -- which is some of the Amano artwork, is closer to the patterned-ness of the jacket, but it's still a cape and not a jacket.

What about those wacky armor gauntlets? Not seeing a trace of those at Soom, either. There's a frou frou jewel instead of the skull for a belt buckle, which is fairly notable.

Yep. Absolutely conclusive, it's identical. Tsk tsk.

(And now the inner costumer gets sent to sit in the corner with a stiff drink.)

 

Forgive me. You're actually quite correct and it was my flaw in my previous post, I'll alter it immediately. However, I still don't think bringing up the controversies regarding the homage dolls should be done in this thread. we should merely all agree to disagree in regards to opinions regarding those. As people, we feel a need to defend our interests and things we care for when people speak badly of them, which is why I spoke up when a previous poster mentioned disdain for the Judges doll that I currently own, but not for another doll that is an obvious homage of another character.

I suppose this is just another point about companies in general and how customers react to things they produce differently. As I said before, it seems that at one time or another, nearly every single company has produced a doll that caused some form of controversy, whether it be a homage or outright thievery. depending upon how the majority of the community reacts to it will determine whether or not people will be willing to forgive them as quickly.

 

I (universally) don't really have an issue with homage dolls. I'm in agreement that it's not the same thing as the scams and missing orders that this thread seems to be more about.

In fact, I actually sorta wish the D outfit was the D outfit -- the only reason I've scrutinized the thing so horribly is because I've planned to make one for my Sabik. It would save me a ton of trouble if it was accurate! (Sabik has more the build for it anyway... scrawny little bugger.)

 

Don't we all wish bjd cosplay outfits would be released? It certainly would make having character based dolls easier, and besides, my original character dolls like to cosplay from time to time ( ever try to make a Belldandy outfit by hand for an MSD? It's a real pain!)

*ahem* but er... back to the topic a tad more...

Even though RingDoll has had their problems, and they probably should've stopped taking orders until they caught up, they didn't. They're a relatively new company after all, maybe they haven't quite learned to stop taking orders because up until this point they haven't had horribly many at once? It's been mentioned on the WR for RD that it's only been recently that there's been any interest in general for their sculpts, so it's possible that they've still be accepting in orders because after this mass of orders, it may be quite awhile before they get another order. I feel like quoting Tony Shalhoub from Galaxy Quest in regards to this situation..." We should've just taken the gig, who knows when we'll be able to get another one?"

 

I"m not saying they're just as bad the whole CCC fiasco. This thread was about companies, bad experiences, and forgiveness. I merely shared my bad experience with a company that may get better or may get worse, but simply stated forgiveness is not something I give lightly. I never once compared RD with either of these companies. Will RD get as bad as CCC and CH?? I certainly hope not. They've still got a chance to redeem themselves in many peoples' eyes, I think, but using quality control as an excuse for slowness? Absolute garbage. But THIS is something entirely different, so I'm going to shut up about it frankly.

 

That was DollZone? I always wondered. I was away from the forum alot in 06 because my Father passed, but I had heard about the incident and I knew Volks had halted the SD16 Boy production over it . To me this is unforgiveable . Needless to say I will not look into thier products again either.....I don't give second chances ever where money is involved. Once you are shady, you are always shady.

 

Tsukasa~ I actually bought Cosmo from DZ about 2 months ago and I am still waiting on him. I didn't know about the bootlegging at time of purchase. Knowing this now makes me weary of them. I know its not fair of me to say "once shady, always shady" becuase it may not always be the case but in my mind its better to think that way so I don't get dissapointed. I just think bootlegging is very, very, low. I also recently heard about Leekes problems which really surprised me because I have always had stupendous customer service with them as well...you are right all it takes is one mistake I guess. but now for Leeke this is the second time...hmmmm.

 

I'm not comfortable with a lot of the copying of ideas or sculpts that I see etc, but I do think it tends to be rather rampant. I also feel it is a completely different issue to direct stealing ie recasting or failing to deliver paid for orders. If you take money for a product and do not pay, that is theft. If you buy a doll, then recast, it is the equivalent of forgery. While I acknowledge that there are a lot of things that can happen to cause this, while customers are owed dolls, goods, refunds etc, I don't believe the company deserves a second chance. Customhouse has customers who have waited one year for their dolls. There appears to have been some problem with the Vinyl AnAns that caused this. It appears the soft vinyl they originally planned didn't work, squished the dolls out of shape and they may have had to remake all their vinyls. An explanation would have gone a long way to keeping people happy. Instead customers have had stalls from one month to the next. Possibly because customhouse don't know when things will get back to normal. Do I feel sorry for them, yes - if that is what happened. Do I think it excuses their behaviour - no. They're running a business. It is up to them to manage their funds carefully and plan for any setbacks. Using customers funds to pay for a new issue only happens after you have made the goods they have paid for. Sending out new customers dolls while people who have already waited months now a year is incredibly poor customer service. Sending out damaged dolls and then telling customers they have to buy more dolls to get replacement parts shipped is ridiculous. I love their dolls, but I certainly won't buy while they're behaving like this. I don't care how good the sales are.

I think Charles left a lot of people out of pocket and did a few incredibly nasty things, perhaps unintentionally, ie like providing tracking numbers to people then not shipping dolls so people were left hoping for months that their dolls had been sent. If he does get his business up and running, and manages to refund people, fair enough. I know that I wouldn't trust him until I knew that outstanding dolls had been sent. I do think it is possible for him to restart, because he certainly has enough fans and supporters of his work. Do I think the people who buy from him or customhouse are too trusting or forgiving? Don't know. At the end of the day, it's their money and they are entitled to spend it on what they want.

As for copying or using dolls for inspiration - DoA leaves that to the individual to take what action they want. And I agree that is how it should be handled. I also think the boycott Leeke signatures are a bit ridiculous. I've yet to see one against any other imitator regardless of how obvious the imitation is. If you want to boycott Leeke go ahead, but please leave the political statements off DoA.

 

I think I won't forgive.
I've got problems with 2 companies now, and I do not want to buy from them anymore, even if their dolls are very good. I'll try to search on the aftermarket.

 

I agree with this. I was highly irritated at Soom's Vampire Hunter D homage - I don't care if it wasn't 100% identical, the intent to resemble D was clear, and I don't care what copyright law says, that intent and creative laziness annoyed me deeply. I don't rely on laws to tell me how I feel about things. However, I wouldn't have told anyone else not to buy from Soom because of it, and I've decided it wasn't nasty enough for me to boycott the company either. The harm to the copyright holder is likely neglible, and the only one who can go after Soom for it is him. So obviously there I am willing to forgive.

Recasts and copying are harmful, though, especially when it's BJD against BJD. I'm unconvinced Leeke has done anything truly unusual or wrong. There's no way the early Korean and Chinese BJD companies didn't have Volks dolls on their workbenches, or all companies aren't taking inspiration from each other. I can't see how InfinitiDoll or Little Monica or Ricky could have done their body sculpts without at least very good pictures of certain Volks bodies.

Leeke's handled things, from what I can tell, rather stupidly, which is not unusual for BJD companies . . . but they seem to have sculpted an entire doll, reworking it as they went. Using inspiration from other companies is, to me, reasonable and probably common. The two dolls aren't even in direct competition as I believe they're different sizes. I don't see that they've used anything patented or copyrighted by anybody else (as I believe some aspects of Volks dolls are, like their hand and foot release system). But as I said before, laws don't dictate how we feel. Some people are angry with Leeke over this, and emotional gut reactions have value. I also firmly believe that people are allowed to complain about what they don't like.

However, splashing around shocking red letters in signatures is probably going to annoy more people than it brings on board. And while Leeke will listen to customer buying habits, when they're insisting they're in the right, I seriously doubt they're going to care about or respond to a petition. I would see putting signs of support for Dust of Dolls in signatures as a better response (although I wish people would stop referring to them as DoD, as that's Dream of Dolls' abbreviation . . .).

 

But I thought it was SUPPOSED to be a homage to Vampire Hunter D and thats why he is called Hyperon Dhampir. That is one of the reasons that drew me to him, his likeness to Vampire Hunter D....

 

This + what Hobbysue said is a very accurate depiction of my feelings on the matter.

I most definitely agree with you both here. The signatures irritate me and, to be quite honest, seeing it actually made me jump way more in favor of Leeke's side (until I heard about the sloppy quality, in both wigs and dolls, that they're shipping out lately, which made me very sad). I don't intend to take my business away from Leeke forever, just until they can get their act together as far as quality control is concerned. And the boycott signatures still annoy me.

OH! I also have to agree that I wish people would stop referring to Dust of Dolls as DoD because I got pretty confused at first when people were talking about DoD. I thought they were talking about Dream of Dolls! >.< That abbreviation belongs to Dream of Dolls and it's pretty confusing to use it for another company entirely.


As for company forgiveness... for me it's a case by case basis. I heard that back in the day Soom had some issues with long wait times. And yet they are probably my absolute favorite doll company. Most people nowadays would consider them an upstanding doll company (Vampire Hunter D thing aside, which I really don't see a problem with, as it was pointed out the the outfit is completely different from Vampire Hunter D's actual outfit and this sort of homage is in no way going to harm the makers of Vampire Hunter D).

Custom House, on the other hand, is going to have to do A LOT to earn my trust and business back. I had to resort to threats to get them to send my dolls after 8 months of waiting! My dolls arrived in good condition (aside from their non-professional quality face-ups and some dirtiness), but I've stuck around the waiting room because I feel a strong kinship to the people still waiting from January of 2010 and want to stay at least until their situation is resolved.
Why will it take a heck of a lot for me to "forgive" Custom House? For many reasons: Some of the things Custom House has said to those people (the people who have been waiting over a year), has done to those people, and what they've put those people through thoroughly disgusts me; the fact that they ignore communication half the time and LIE to their customers (sometimes even really poor, obvious lies) about why they missed yet another promised shipping date; the fact that they send out products that are absolutely not to standard for what a company should send out (broken dolls, horrendous seams, face-ups that are rushed and sloppy, and other such things) and then telling customers that to get replacement parts/heads/whatever they have to buy more dolls!
The only reason I'd ever consider giving this company my money again is if they seriously clean up their attitude. It's gonna take a looooong time for Custom House/Aidolls to do that to an extent that satisfies me.

I will never buy anything from CCC for two reasons: the things I've heard that he put people through are despicable. Plus, his style of dolls don't really appeal to me (lucky me I guess).

 

I always heard the opposite argument, that dhampir was too generic a term to make him really D. Regardless, I'd rather see a licensed version than an homage when it's coming from a company. Either commit and make said character, or do something else. I like companies to act like companies, and fans like fans. But that's just me, I'm not telling anybody else how to feel about it or spend their money. And to keep OT with the thread, I don't think what Soom did there was "unforgivable." Just a turn-off for me.