Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

Oh, I knew you didn't mean it was unforgiveable, I was just pointing it out becuase I actually thought he was supposed to be modeled after Hunter D, LOL....and to keep on topic I dont have a problem with it.

 

I can very easily forget many mistakes a company makes having to do with wait times, a flaw in the mold (if they agree to fix it!), mis communication through email, etc... Those types of issues are a part of almost any online business.

I don't forget things like:
*Recasts/Bootlegging
*Extremely misleading photography (Photoshopping wonky facial features)
*Willfully sending the wrong sculpt and claiming it is the same
*Claiming the box is insured but actually pocketing the money and not insuring
*Refusing to replace a broken part on a brand new doll
*Consistently shipping very poor quality items

Companies that do the above lose my business for good and I wouldn't chose to give them a second chance. Really there is no need because I can just order cool stuff from somewhere else that is more reliable.

Also, I don't think it is scary to not give companies a second chance. I don't owe them my business. This is my hobby and I do it for enjoyment. If they ruin that enjoyment I am not going to give them a cent. But I don't fault others for being more forgiving them me It all comes down to the individual and how willing they are to take risks with their hobby. It is fair to say I am not willing to take any risks with a hobby intended to bring me relaxation and enjoyment

 

The boycott Leeke signatures annoy me to bits. Ok you boycott the company. Good for you and keep up the good effort. I just don't want issues thrown in my face that I don't want to be bothered with actually. I say this for real life demonstrations also.

 

I think that is a much more accurate account of what happened. It was shocking. But no one went with pitchforks after buyers, they simply made it clear why Charles was not to be trusted.

I was a little confused as to why that was offered as a defense of him, too, because it sounds to me like another indictment.

I fail to understand how Charles could have "accidentally" sent out false tracking numbers to people, too - I really can't imagine any way that could have been done without deliberate choice and conscious dishonesty. I think talking about forgiving and the soul is pretty irrelevant here, because it is a matter of not rewarding Charles for lying and defrauding people, especially when he still has money that by rights belongs to other people, money sent to him to specifically pay for goods and shipping he decided not to deliver. He stole that money, and put people who had faith in him through huge amounts of stress while doing so. I don't think he should be rewarded for that behaviour, and I am very glad his future dolls are banned here. I don't think a company with a dirty history should be allowed to troll for new victims, and it's disrespectful to the people who already suffered.

If he had any decency, as an absolute minimum he would have made good on his obligations, with a big apology, before trying to make more money playing the same game. And yeah, all the above goes for CH too, lovely as their dolls are. And for Felixdoll, who AFAIK never made good on the orders that were made directly through their websites, but suddenly started selling dolls again.

 

After giving the whole issue a lot of thought, I completely agree. This is one of those things that isn't clear cut like recasting -- it's totally up to the individual as to how they feel and where they decide to put their money. However, that's true of both sides -- people will also end up deciding to buy from Leeke-- and behaving in a seemingly aggressive manner is more likely to stir up bad feelings between hobbyists than do Leeke any harm. Considering the nature of this issue (as in it's not black and white), and the community, positive statements like "support Dust of Doll!" would be more effective. At the very least they would be unlikely to cause hard feelings between hobbyists or turn people off (I admit that their in-your-face nature makes me a little uncomfortable -- so yeah, instant turn off).

The Leeke/Dust of Doll controversy is one where I could argue either side. Though truthfully, looking at the way many doll companies operate and borrow from each other, I came to the *personal* decision that I'm not upset with Leeke World. However, I can completely understand how people could come to a very different conclusion. I just hope that those folks can understand where the other side is coming from. The angry banners, whether or not it's the members intention, suggest otherwise.

 

Exactly Taco, well said!! I completely agree with you!


I have to say, I'm kinda in the 'never say never' camp. I know I'll never order from Charles because the things I've heard are just too bad AND his dolls don't appeal to me.
With Custom House, I feel like they're behaving just as badly as Charles, but as a larger company I think they have a better chance of fixing what's broken and turning into a decent company again (especially if they were to get new management)... add to that the fact that their dolls are terribly cute (I say terribly because even as mad as I am at them, I can't help but want an Ange Ai Sunny and some Bisous ), and you've got a recipe for potential forgiveness. But, while I say that, Custom House will most definitely have to prove a lot before they earn back my trust. Dealing with them as they are now is just way too stressful for a hobby where you're shelling out this kind of money. Even though Custom House dolls are pretty cheap (especially the time service ones) the headache (and heartache) just isn't worth it IMO. And I definitely wouldn't want to reward their current behavior by throwing more cash their way.

 

Well said! What many people here seem to keep forgetting is that DOA, and this online community at large, is not preventing anybody from buying the dolls/items they want, from whichever vendor(s) they want. Just because CCC has a forum-wide ban, doesn't mean that there are pitchfork-mobs trying to prevent anybody buying from CCC directly. Anybody who still really really wants to sign up to buy a new Piggy is welcome to go elsewhere to buy one-- all it means is that Charles & his representatives can't sell them on DOA.

It's exactly like when you fall asleep at the bar, and the bartender kicks you out & says "I don't care where you sleep, but you can't do it here."

Also well said! And I would add a "hang in there" note to all who are turned-off & irritated by the angry red sig banners. The same thing happened like 5 years ago during that Dollzone-SD16 brouhaha... or rather, the opposite thing happened, because all the angry sig banners were from the defenders of the boycotted company... but it's basically the same thing either way. It was high-pitched irritation on the eyes to navigate this site for some time, but soon all the DZ Defenders' Army sig-banner-waving faded after a little time passed. Crowds have shorter collective memories en masse than do individual grudge-holders, and large-scale outrage is tiring to sustain. So grin & bear it, it'll fade soon. ^^

 

The main that that worried me when CCC offered up the new dolls, was that the entire time people were waiting, he had all the orders in his house. He wasn't waiting for them to arrive from the factory or elsewhere, they were sitting in his lounge room. Just because they were premade, didn't mean that people were/are likely to get them. But if people are wanting to take the risk with their money, go ahead. If you love a sculpt and it appeals to you, for a lot of people, it is worth the money. And realistically, if you pay via paypal, then you can always file a chargeback if they aren't sent in a week or so.

As for the Leeke/Dust of Dolls issue - yeah, there are people popping into the thread and saying if you buy a tan doll, she could turn green. Huh? Well, technically that could happen with any doll. There is a lady in our Brisbane group who has a variety of tan dolls. Some came that were orange (Limhwa), her Lati Tan Coco (?) which was really cute, was jaundice tan in my eyes. Seriously, the exact same shade that a friend's baby went when he had jaundice. That colour turns my stomach. And another Tinybear that was a perfect woody brown. I'm definitely getting the feeling that it is not just wrong to buy Mikhaila, but any product from Leeke which seems a little ridiculous. And yes, the red stickers work against the cause rather than for it i.m.o.

 

You wording was fine actually and I do understand your points. I agree that "never again" can sound very final but in this little hobby world I find it easier for me to at least imagine "never again". My hobby is an outlet that I would like to keep as uncomplicated as possible! So if sketchy stuff is going on I try to avoid it. But honestly, I don't fault any one else for giving companies another chance! Again, to me this is all about how each individual prefers to handle a situation with a company. Some people have more tolerance and patience while some people have less. At work I am required to have a great deal of tolerance/patience and consistently face abstract challenges while being completely accountable if things go wrong. This is why I strive for over simplicity in my hobby.

 

I kind of feel the same way about disreputable companies the way I feel about pyramid scams. I'll advise against giving them cash, try to make sure you're protected. In the end it's your choice, but if you ignore all the warnings and lose your cash I hold no guarantees that I won't laugh. Sometimes though, when there are no warnings a company can still go bad. Stuff happens. If they build up their rep again I'd be willing to forgive and forget as long as they don't make it a habit. Feedback never hurts though. No one should ever be discouraged from leaving feedback.

I gotta add because I saw talk of the Soom Hyperion that Dhamphir is indeed a term far older than Vampire hunter D. It changes from one region to the next but if my memory serves me (I had some interesting books on the subject) Dhamphirs were half-vampires in Eastern European folklore with the ability to recognize full vampires despite their disguises. They would rid a village of a vampire by trapping the vamp in a bottle, and get paid a small fee for doing so. They weren't immortal, and they weren't skinny white elf-looking guys with armor... so D is kind of loosely based on the European legends. XD I wasn't really attracted to getting one of the Sooms, but that's because I dig more masculine looking guys and Soom in general makes very feminine faces. I wasn't offended at their homage, nor was I offended at Ringdoll's Judges. The people who swoon for one and scoff at the other seem... questionable to me as with both the homage is evident but they were changed enough to legally be okay.

 

my issue with Leekeworld more than the imitation Pun body is that they have deliberately lied and altered images to prove that the DOD pun wasn't used as a reference... had they manned up and admitted its was a reference then so be it... i wouldn't buy it but had they admitted the use then i wouldn't boycott them... they have tried to tarnish DOD's reputation with lies and i feel that is something i cannot condone
the girls of DOD have behaved amazingly under the circumstance and it saddens me that people can over look the wrong done to two brilliant artists because its easier to let Leeke slide
i wonder if the same people would be as blasé if they went through something similar.

 

I think after the whole thing settles down on every case, like with CCC and Leeke. Some people will never buy from them again and others will. I can't stay furious about it anymore, I'd rather stick my energy in other stuff.

Especially when I tried to help out in the CCC case and people completly ignored my or other members advise how to deal with the issue.

I stopped caring enterly. I tried to be helpfull and got totally burned for someone else's sake. Not going through that bull anymore.

 

Whereas I think they've played the sympathy card and kept the issue going. And what precisely is the wrong done to them? Have their sales plummeted because Leekeworld has released Mikhaila? There are companies that would kill for the amount of free publicity they've just gotten. They're talking about 5 years worth of work being ruined. How? They barely sell the doll from what I can see. They are hobbyist artist/casters who offer interesting dolls. Is this really going to stop them from selling more Puns? If they're that sensitive artistically that seeing someone offer something similar (or even identical) destroys their work, then they're going to have a tough run in life. It happens. Even accidentally it happens. Has Soom/Unoa/anyone else run wailing into a corner because someone has imitated their doll? If anything, it makes me wonder why they're so scared of the competition. And the fact is that they DIDN'T copy Puns. Puns still has a very unique face and look even aside from the pear shaped body. Who knows, maybe a company will bring out a huge eared doll next. What will they do then?

 

i agree... i am not angry just not interested in supporting a company that practices deceit .... it doesn't require anger just resolve not to buy from anyone who has takes advantage of others creativity then misleads customers ..if not then i am basically condoning their behaviour
if people don't make that stand then companies will continue to do as they like because in the end they can steal and make money from their theft...why wouldn't they

 

This reminds me of an outfit Dollmore posted a while back that looked exactly as a dress in an anime. Some people has serious issues with it and stopped going to Dollmore but in the end Dollmore still is around and sells their stuff.

A lot of companies sell similar items, and I am not talking about the dollcompanies only. Its difficult to keep track of everything and in the end you will also see that you will have items in your household that is inspired by other designers but then the cheaper version. Look at furniture .

If you want to keep supporting the one you think thats in the right, you are totally free to do so imho.

 

i really have no issue with the idea of them making outfits that look like anime drawings, they are not impacting the sale of the anime or manga infact they may bring new readers in ..yes people take exception but i am betting there are more who buy cosplay and read scanlations than not....
but when a big company copies a smaller doll makers doll/body and in doing so offer a doll that is cheaper impacting the other company then it seems like poor form to me and when they lie inspite of their own photos showing the smaller companies doll on their sculptors desk well that is ugly
i wasn't that bothered by the Milch thing..yes they should have asked the photographer but seeing he was never going to turn his image into a doll they had far less impact on his bottom line too... more people know of that Russian artist now than possibly would have
Dust of dolls is a doll maker... Leeke took their body design and tho tweaked it slightly hoping people wouldn't notice the likeness to Puns and is selling it at half the price DOD can afford to sell their version...to think it won't hurt them is naive.
i notice they are not releasing the fly version..maybe the original designers of the wings and staff they copied have more pull than DOD

as to furniture and such the people that can afford the original will buy it ... but people who may have saved and been willing to wait possibly months to years for a pun may take the quicker easier option and buy a Leeke version

 

Yes, but there's another piece to this though. The idea of the pear shaped body came from the Pun, but they're very different looking dolls -- Leeke's sculpting style (and they did sculpt their doll themselves) and Dust of Doll's sculpting style are quite different, the two dolls are very different sizes ... it's very possible to feel strongly about one without wanting the other. Buying a Mikhaila does not mean that that person is spending money that would have gone to Dust of Doll (or vise versa). Like many things in life, it's not that simple.

I understand why the Dust of Doll artists are frustrated, but at the same time look around -- one company makes jointed hands, and suddenly there are five companies making jointed hands. Dollshe used to be the only company making 70cm dolls, and now it's par for the course. Soom began the whole fantasy parts craze, but Resin Soul, Angelheim, and AoD picked up on it. Did any of these companies give credit to the originator of the idea? No. Have hobbyists gotten angry -- for the most part no. So I'm not sure what Leeke did that is different. They could've said, 'yes, we did use the Pun for inspiration', and maybe they should have....however, I could still see where that could backfire for them to. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Anyway, this is my own take on the situation for what it's worth. Obviously people will come to their own conclusions and act accordingly. However, I wouldn't be fearing for Dust of Doll over this -- they should make it through just fine.

 

If they are going for a cheaper version and not willing to go for the original because it takes time or cost more, then they are hypocrits and have no right to complain about the issue Leeke/D.D

Hobbyists are the most vicious crowd when it comes to THEIR hobby. I'll handle them with gloves and a 10-foot pole most of the time.

All in all D.D has gotten a lot of publicity and fans through this ordeal. So thats a plus for them. I doubt they will never sell a doll or make a new one, just be careful with how far you put out your W.I.P. stuff. Good insurance to keep future incidents away.

 

But the body wasn't recast. They made their own body that is a completely different size, colour, has different joints, and a different head and overall aesthetic. I fail to see how mini sized coloured elf girl is going to steal sales from tiny sized panda? Is it supposed to be a panda? They are not the same thing. Sure Leeke has acted less than stellar, but they have provided years of good customer service and it is ridiculous that people are now posting in threads that they will steal your money and their dolls turn green when that has never happened in the past.

It is really annoying to see people get so bent out of shape over that and then in the same post say it is alright for companies to completely take whole character designs from anime. Anime and manga artists are still artists too, but I guess they don't deserve the same respect as this one doll maker does? Total hypocrisy. I don't even like hooved dolls, but Soom and Daisy Dayes certainly didn't post all over the internet butt hurt over other companies making hooved dolls, making angry banners striking out the companies who have followed, etc etc. People should make their decisions about the issue and then privately move on.

I won't buy from Dollzone, do you see a giant banner in my sig? Would an anti-Dollzone banner even be allowed? If not, the Leeke ones should certainly be banned as well. I don't begrudge my friends who buy from them and one even owns a Dollzone doll who I think it pretty awesome. It's a personal thing with me and my feelings on them recasting dolls that prevents me from wanting to buy from them.