Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

i think that the BJD community needs to take a more accepting stance in this matter to each other's choices. deplore and boycott leeke if you will, but don't judge the people who continue to buy from them. blame the company, by all means.. but it was leeke who made the mistake, not her customers. i'm just saying this because i've seen some scathing retorts on both sides of the matter (not just here, but elsewhere as well) and i think it's very unbecoming to become judgemental of others in the pursuit of being supportive of either company.

but that's just my humble opinion. ^____^ *tosses happy confetti on all*

 

I am pretty much 100% in agreement with autumnrain! I didn't understand the whole of the situation until I saw one of the boycott sigs, and was consequently appalled by evidence of Leeke doctoring photos to try to make themselves look better.

Frankly, I think Mikhaila is beautiful, and I don't blame anyone for purchasing her. I just really wish that Leeke wouldn't have tried to deceive us. Moreover, it feels like sort of a slap in the face since this isn't the first controversy with Leeke. Fool me once, or whatever they say. I don't think that -I- will be making any further purchases from Leeke, but I don't think badly of people who will continue to buy from them. Que sera sera.

 

This is what bugs me as well. I've seen dozens of pear shaped doll bodies before Dust of Dolls and then Leeke came with theirs. Most of them were from other French artists (I started to see it as typical French design after seeing so many of these come from their hands). That is why I'm irritated by the accusations of copying and it makes me doubt if I want to deal with D.D.

Imitation and inspirations happens everyday. In TV-land for instance, look at how many singing contest shows have popped up after "Idols" was such a success. Or in games: When "bullet-time" turned out to be a huge success, almost any other shooter was incorporated with a similar version of that design.

I do agree that Leeke was a bit tacky for using Pun's pictures when creating their Mikhaila, but at the same time, Leeke's doll is so different from D.D's that both are directed to a different audience. They aren't 'stealing' buyers, but yes, they are competition in a way.
Still, Leeke's dishonesty, for me, hurt their reputation more than their supposed copying. If they'd just be up front about it, I'd probably accepted it. But now, I'm not sure if I want to deal with them again.

tl;dr
For me it's more important how a company responds to an accusation, or deals with the fact that someone copies their work, than the fact that it actually happened.
If they keep their heads cool and act professionally (and in the case of the copiers, confess and change their behavior), I'm more inclined to deal with them again than when a drama results in a complete trainwreck.

 

I'm not commenting on a specific case, but perhaps it can be explained by comparing it with having a drug addicted family member who steals from you and lies to you again and again. Outsiders may say "Humans make mistakes. Forgive your family member." and some people have big hearts and forgive again and again. Other people will say that forgiving is the same as saying "It's okay to steal from me and lie to me. Have no respect for me and use me as you please." and refuse to forgive.
This may change when the family member goes through rehab, no longer abuses drugs and the family member shows they are ashamed of their previous behaviour and do not want to do it again ever. Then some non-forgivers may be able to forgive and make it something of the past as long as it stays in the past.

Trust that was once broken may not be easily repaired, though.

I've had excellent customer service from several companies that I now consider shady. Companies that I recommended to others because of the good customer service I received, but I no longer do that as their actions towards others broke my trust. As long as that trust remains broken, I'll stay clear of them.

 

The denial seems to be a big part for a lot of people, whereas for me it's pretty standard. I've had some horrendously ridiculous excuses from companies over the years. Admittedly most over shipping times and problems, but still. I get the feeling that they would consider it a point of honour to deny it regardless. "Don't treat us like idiots and deny things" is a relevant feeling but perhaps for Leeke, Puns was only a small part of the equation. There are other companies with similar joints and it does look as if they tried a few different ways to create a pear shaped girl judging by their own photos. I know everyone thinks they can tell simply by looking at photos, but perhaps in Leeke's mind the end result is substantially different from Puns. They have done pear shaped dolls in the past even if they haven't offered them for sale. Copying is an emotional issue and people react differently. Just the discussion in this forum should show that. If you think Leeke was dishonest and copied and shouldn't be supported, fair enough. Don't buy from them. But if others don't feel that way, accept it. Going into the discussion room to post negatives isn't on either. If you have no interest in Mikhaila then why visit other than to thrust your opinion down other people's throats. Why does everyone else have to accept your viewpoint. It has been decided that she is not a recast and thus is on-topic. I'm sure not all the moderators agree with it, but there are apparently other dolls they have viewed as 'copies' or 'imitators' that the forum has accepted without murmur. From my point of view, I won't deal with a company when I know they have taken money and failed to deliver the goods or delivered shoddy/poor quality work that was not as advertised and failed to fix it. That is fraud, it is criminal as far as I am concerned and that is a pretty good reason to not support them. I have a surprisingly long list of those companies already. Leekeworld pales in comparison to the likes of Felixdoll, Customhouse, CCC, Dollfair, even Latidoll at present is on my do not buy list until they improve things. Yet, there are plenty of other people purchasing their items.

 

The both of you sum up exactly what I feel about the D.D./Leeke ordeal.

In my eyes Mikhila and Pun are not the same doll. Is Mikhaila inspired by Pun..maybe? But, at the end of the day Leeke still sculpted and cast the doll themselves, she's not a recast so I don't see the issue. I like Mikhila and I'm going to buy her. And if D.D ever sells Tank or Pun I'd buy them too. Before this ordeal people didn't know who D.D. were, they've gotten a lot of free publicity and new customers.

 

You aren't the only one to see differences in the body sculpt -- they're definitely there, which makes sense because Leeke sculpted the doll themselves and have a different style than D.D. I see differences in the thighs, calves, belly (especially from the side), and the butt (also from the side) as well as the shape of the torso joint and some detailing on the tummy from the front. I spent awhile looking at the pics that were taken as evidence and they show a doll that was inspired by another doll -- not a direct copy. If inspiration were not allowed, there would be very very few companies to choose from right now. What Mikhaila and Pun have in common are narrow shoulders, small bust and really big hips -- but as others have said, those traits were not unique to Pun.

Yeah, that has been known to happen. For me it's a matter of companies generally (as in never) divulging where they got their inspiration from. You can usually figure it out fairly quickly, but they aren't giving credit or being up front that a different company actually did it first. The difference is in the fact that most of the time companies don't get called out on it -- so who knows how they would respond in a similar situation. What is standard operating procedure in cases like this? I don't know, because usually they don't come up -- or if people do get a little huffy, it dies down very quickly.

 

On the pear shaped body? Don't forget Domodo (Domadoll) -- wasn't she the first to make REAL women/girls, with Okja and Onni?

 

I do think that the Leeke doll was copied, even though it is clearly not a recast. However, it was their lying about their 'inspiration' for the doll that has lost me as a customer. If they are going to try and pretend that they did not copy it (such as editing their pictures to remove the Dust Doll photo that was in them) then I am not going to deal with them.

I have forgiven Dollzone for their initial mistake of recasting dolls, and am now quite happy to deal with them. The same for Luts, who were once accused of recasting a volks head (Ari Wink, if I remeber rightly.) These companies did the right thing by removing the copied items and making new, unique dolls instead. I wish that Leeke would do the same, but if they won't- and worse, if they want to try and hide what they have done- then I will not deal with them.

Of course, I do not expect others to agree with me, and I'm not going to try and tell other people what they should and should not buy, or why. We all make our own judgements at the end of the day, and this just happens to be mine.

 

It was actually the original Ari who was accused of being a recast of Volks Nono. I've seen both in person and I'd have a really hard time thinking it was an actual recast. To my knowlege, Ari was pulled because of the allegations, but Ari wink remained on the LUTS site for a few years until they sold out and just weren't restocked.

People used to be very ready to jump on what they thought were bootlegs... I think partly because there were so few dolls and companies, so similarities didn't seem as coincidental. Some of the accusations were later found to be false. Ocean Moon Shoryu (spelling?) was originally thought to be a knockoff of Volks Lucas... to the point where the artist went underground for awhile and didn't produce anything. When she came back, she made a statement about the copying allegations and started producing again. Having seen both heads in person, Shoryu was was a really different head that only had superficial similarities. I also own a Kanon Yui head, which was also originally thought to be a knock-off of a Volks Lucas. I have both dolls and they are incredibly different, but after the controversy the artist doesn't seem to have ever returned to the market. It's sad.

Some types of copying seem to be acceptable, or certain companies are more acceptable to copy than others. Soom's original male Gem body was almost identical to LUTS Delf, and Soom's Tiny Gem body is almost identical to Volks YoSD. They are obviously not recasts, but they are definitely heavily "inspired by." Ricky's larger body was almost identical to SD17. No one seems to mind these... and I wonder if it's because people just sort of figure that successful companies deserve it.

I find I get more forgiving as I am in the hobby longer. I won't buy a bootlegged product, but if enough time passes and a company seems to have learned from their mistake, I'll give them a chance. I don't necessarily need an apology; learning from the mistake and being on good behavior after is really all we can expect in some cases. I get angry, but I try to remember that it's at least partly cultural... so I have to acknowledge that I can't expect to overlay my Western morals or definitions of originality and expect them to line up.

I generally don't forgive companies with bad customer service or monetary dishonesty. I wouldn't buy from any of the companies who ran off with people's money in the last few years.... having nothing to do with morals and everything to do with caution.

 

I agree with Armeleia, she said it better then I could for myself.

Companies who run off with other people's money are a no go for me.

 

Yes, it is. Especially since both sculptors didn't do anything wrong (and created beautiful dolls... if only I could get a Kanon Louis). With the whole copying thing... of course it's wrong to bootleg, but it's equally wrong to start such a hissy fit, that the person on the receiving end of all that anger is forced to leave the hobby/business and go underground. Fanbase outrage could ruin the reputation of both the alleged bootlegger AND the original creator.
Even if someone's in the wrong, he (general) is still a person and we don't have to rely on lynching to tell him you don't want anything to do with him anymore. A simple "I think you've crossed the line, I'm going now" would suffice.

Sometimes it feels like the angry mob is fueled by a desire for gossip or the need of a society to find a scapegoat, more than a genuine moral highground. To me at least.

 

I have opinions on the Leeke/Dust of Dolls issue, but I feel the vonflict is too fresh to talk about it objectively. What's actually getting me more at this point is the way that the supporters of both sides are acting. Some of the Leeke suporters are baiting and insulting the D.D supporters, and I don't respect that at all. It shouldnt be personal between anyone other than the people directly involved. The D.D supporters are protesting so much that it's become white noise. I spend most of my online time pinging across a handful of websites... And I am innundated with messages and protests everywhere I go. Without any exaggeration, there is as much Leeke Boycott propaganda as Japan Relief help on my LJ flist, Facebook news, Deviantwatch, etc. There's something off-putting about that because it seems to lack any sense of proportion.

It makes me feel bad for both D.D and Leeke because I don't think it's how either would want to be represented.

 

Just to avoid misinterpretation (not that I think you were misinterpreting, armeleia): my last comment wasn't about the Leeke/D.D situation, but a general remark.

I agree though. I don't think either Leeke and Dust of Dolls were waiting for this.

 

The thing with the Dust of Doll/Leekworld issue is that it cannot be won on the internet by fans. It has to be resolved in court by the two doll creators if they are willing to take it that far and both parties are capable to decide on their own if that is what they want. Fans may scream and shout, but it is not their battle.
Trying to bully the other party into doing something you want is rather ugly.

 

I've refrained from commenting on the whole Leeke-Pun thing because I have no idea who did what, and don't pretend to know these things. However, I do agree with the comment above and with Silk's post. I'd really rather the people directly involved sorted this out.

 

Thank you for the correction. I knew it was one of teh Ari dolls, but I couldn't off the top of my head remeber which.

 

As I recall it was shortly after Volks took CH to task over their first-version boy body. Around the time that Volks had issues with Obitsu on the 1/6th Dollfie line too. If anyone else remembers better and I'm wrong, please correct me!

 

Speakings as an individual:

From observation some doll companies get forgiven for their wrong doings but I can't speak in general terms only for myself.

Depends on how the company burns you. How their customer service was towards you.

A company that delivers a doll late than promised has become an often forgiven offense.
A company that doesn't deliver the doll or needs third party intervention to provide the doll to the buyer doesn't get forgiven.
A company that has nice products but bad customer service I don't buy from directly I get their stuff second hand or through the dealer.

I generally don't like companies or people that air their dirty laundry to gain sympathy for how they mismanaged their business. Fix your prior problems first before dropping it or burying it and trying to start new. Earning forgiveness takes a long time once you make a big mistake you foften will have to work twice as hard and then some before people start to see you in a new light.

 

I just can't understand how the sigs could really bother anyone. i see people with idiotic bumper stickers all day but do I get out of my car, knock on their window, and tell them it's annoying? No. It's just words, I can ignore it. I have a friend online who has a video on her page dealing with a VERY controversial issue (abortion) on which I take the opposite opinion than she does. I just ignore it. I still like the person, I value her companionship, and she doesn't rant and rave about issues. She just has that one tiny video. (and believe me I don't value the people who do rant and rave, I drop them like a bad habit. Arguing with me will not EVER change my mind. I'm stubborn that way).

Some people are being too sensitive here. You support Leeke? Cool. it's within your rights to do so. You boycott Leeke? Cool, it's within your rights to do so. If you have mixed feelings no one's trying to make you choose sides, just stand back and take a break and make up your own mind. It's just a Signature people. *points down to mine* Oddly applicable considering...