Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

On the leeke/d.d topic: Every company takes inspiration from someone else. plus everything BJD pretty much originated from volks right? Correct me if I'm wrong. I have a Soom amber and saw that another doll company came out with a doll that had a very similar look to Amber, even the names were similar. I don't believe that company got harassed for it did they? I'm not here to point the finger at anyone just my own opinnion ^^ I would LOVE if more BJD companies experimented more with body types etc. a lot of the BJD's out there already are all very similar to each other. I just hope we can all move past this.

on the forgiving company topic: when I bought my first doll I had issues with the company on timing and shipping etc but I forgave them in the end. I know everyone is different though, but I just hope it can all just be put behind us.^^ I don't see why most can't be forgiven. I know some out there have good reason to not be trusted though and those aren't the ones I'm speaking about.

 

I don't think I could forgive Leeke until they admit what they have done and show remorse. Changing the photo to make it look like D.D was lying was the breaking point for me. To me, that showed guilt - and why should others defend a company that believes they are guilty themselves? Now obviously I don't know what is going through their heads, but I can't imagine they feel that they are the right if they resorted to photoshopping a discriminating image.

To me the situation was a bit fuzzy until I thought about it more. Creating a similar doll as someone else isn't a problem to me, or taking an (ex. hoof feet). It is taking someone's design and trying to copy that design (trying to actually copy the hoof feet would be a problem to me). This is more than inspiration and this is more than just a simple body shape. Leeke didn't just make a pear shaped body, they tried to replicate Puns's body. I can create a couple of analogies. For example, say some individual wrote a book. They didn't have the time/money to get it published right away so it was only available to a few people. Now, some famous author comes along reads the book and likes it. The individual is probably really happy now and feel a little validated. But, then a few months later that famous author is selling a book with the same exact story line. The details are different, he changed a few thins and rewrote it in his own words, but the story line is exactly the same. Will he get away with it? Almost definitely. But, does that make it right? Absolutely not! What is worse is this individual will have a hard time selling his work later because of the copy. If D.D wants to sell Puns in a 40cm size they will have a hard time. Hopefully they will not be accused of copying, since luckily a lot of the community knows they created Puns first. But there will be people that won't but it because they already have a similar doll. A lot of people put a lot of weight in the face sculpt so that may help them, but the biggest appeal of their doll is the unique body.

I see this as the same thing that happened to D.D. I am sure it happens all of the time, but the difference here is they have proof. If D.D was making these claims without the fact that Leeke was next to them at LDoll and taking a bunch of pictures, I would probably not believe them. That doesn't make it any less wrong if Leeke did copy, but that is the difficultly with copyright - proof. The pictures on Leeke's table was just the icing on the cake, so to speak, so there is no question that they made their doll with Pun's in mind. The gray area here is proving copy as opposed to inspiration. I think the copy is obvious - the joints are the same the the torso has the same curves and proportions. They changed some details, but just like many pointed out in the Mijn issue, changing some things doesn't change the fact that it is a copy, it only makes it a little harder to prove. Technically if the doll was completely different but they started by trying to copy Pun it would still be a copy, just no one would notice so no one would care.

The fact that it is a big company ripping off a small artist just makes it hurt more. It wouldn't be right the other way around either, but this just causes more harm. At least D.D is becoming more widely know because of this.. but I highly doubt this is what they wanted to be known for. Some people really need to look at this from D.D side. They are just two young students and making a doll is no small effort. They trusted Leeke at LDoll. I think anyone would feel hurt and betrayed in a similar situation. Leeke would still survive despite loosing business on one doll, but D.D would have a much harder time.

 

Volks were not the first people to make Ball Jointed Dolls. I couldn't say who the original makers of BJDs were, but I know there have been German ones made of wood for at least 100 years.

 

I'm not saying this as a defence towards anyone specific, but I've seen it time and again that when some people feel they are put with their backs against the wall when confronted with a lie, they'll lie harder. Maybe it's a reflex to protect themselves. People do something stupid, they get caught, they panic and tell an even worse lie that's sometimes so ridiculous you can't believe they even dared to say it, but they are panicking due to fear of the consequences and they can't think about how to fix the even bigger mess they made.
If it's really panic, those people usually admit their faults after you give them some breathing space. Hounding someone who did wrong isn't always the right approach.

 

This. Exactly this.

I recently had dealings with a certain business and I wasn't entirely satisfied with the way my commission was handled. Not with the quality; that was perfectly fine. But there were delays with my order (and others) being made and shipped out that should have been avoided, and it was because the personal problems were interfering with the business. I understand that there were unavoidable issues and as a person I can sympathise. But as a paying customer, I feel that if the personal issues are so great, than the business issues need to be put on the back-burner for awhile until a healthier balance between the two can be established. Especially since these particular issues with that particular business have been going on for quite awhile now.

I can understand and sympathize with the owner of this business, but that doesn't mean I'm going to commission her again, at least not until she seems to get things balanced a bit more between personal and business lives.

 

Dolls with ball joints have been around for thousands of years. However, ball jointed dolls made out of resin to be customized in garage kit format have not existed for thousands of years. That happened in 1999 with Volks, so our entire, specific sub-genre of dolls is an idea that was taken from them by other doll companies.

So I agree with the sentiments that if we were to ban dolls for taking ideas or inspiration, we would in the end have to ban most of the dolls in existence.

 

Before reading this thread I didn't know that this "recast/ bootleg, copying" thing has been going on for so long and with so many different companies, allegedly. I had only heard about the Volks incident in 06 and then a couple years ago the Leek Milch debacle. Gosh, I guess what Kim says below sums it up best IMO. ^.^

 

Sorry if my sentences are not perfectly written.

Edit: In my opinion if people could have deal with Leeke more than a letter/two letter I bet Leeke could have been less "intimidate" and more interested to admit they have took inspiration from these girls work. And probably take an arrangement with Dod for some money since they have take inspiration from other existing work.

Now that everyone are jumping on them, and boycott them they will NEVER admit they have take this inspiration and Dod will NEVER get any money out of this. Because the instant they will admit something like this, people that boycot them will take this opportunity to bash even more on them. and its could bring Leeke to the bottom.

And then in a few months people will start buying from Leeke again. amen!

 

Not everybody can rise above it, if it's something they feel strongly about. My sister used to work at a women's center in a small & very conservative town; her bumper-stickers, stuff like 'Lambda Rising' and 'Keep Abortion Safe & Legal' and the like, got her several bomb-threats & her car windows smashed with rocks. People really CAN get seriously worked-up over bumperstickers, sigs, etc. that're trumpeting anything that rubs them the wrong way. Anyone who's the trumpeting type, do go ahead & speak your piece, but also do prepare yourself for backlash.

Excellent point. The way I see this Leeke thing, the only dippy thing they did was make themselves look guiltier than they really were. They got defensive under attack, did a knee-jerk Photoshopping, and now they dug themselves into a deeper hole. I suspected it was from this exact panic reaction-- which is a fairly universal reflex, when you think about it-- think of the kid next door, standing in front of your broken window with a baseball in hand, saying "I didn't do it" as soon as you appear.

Seriously, you cannot tell me that pretty much every early BJD company who released a 60cm boy body didn't have at least one Volks SD13 sitting on their worktable during the Making-Of stage. Ditto the Lanky-70cm-Boy type, you know every one of those early ones had to have a Dollshe on the workbench. Ditto Soom's jointed hands, which have now practically become a standard thing, thanks to the number of companies who were 'inspired by' their design. Et cetera.

 

At the beginning, nobody has done things wrong, D.D and Leeke were corresponding with emails.
(And they don't want money ! Where did you hear such things ?)
Leeke didn't received lots of messages on their board firstly.
Some pictures were already on Flickr etc... but the petition and boycott signatures burst when they photoshopped the making of.
They already had issues, so they knew that they had decisions to make, but they panicked.

Anyway, D.D didn't invented pear shapes on BJD, but this body design is really unique.
With a design, you don't have to recast to make a copy, as Esthy said before.
If D.D want to make a MSD Püns, it will not be perfectly the same design as the original size, it might be more similar to Mikhaila than Püns herself, because Mikhaila's a little bit more "mature".
So, one day, if D.D release a MSD Püns, nobody will say that they copied Leeke's Mikhaila ?
I won't bet...

If companies are inspired by other compagnies creations, it doesn't allow them to do so...
They're able to create orignal designs when they work hard, as D.D did for example.

 

I can't issue a blanket statement on what would/wouldn't/could/couldn't make me forgive any BJD company/artist/dealer. I would have to judge it based on other factors. It's easy for me, not so much to 'forgive', but not pay attention to companies who've done wrong, mostly because I don't like what they've produced this far. CCC, DZ, etc. so far I'm not effected by what they've done. I can hate them, but why? I can forgive them, but why? Should a company produce something I want or do something I dislike after owning one of their dolls then I'd have to figure it out.

In the Leeke/D.D. situation I feel like public opinion has blown it up a lot more than it needs to be. There are two opinions of the issue, I think we can all appreciate that. But letting the two entities directly involved solve it is better than the supporters (on either side) drawing the line in the proverbial sandbox and saying "For us or against us?" Because at this point the opinions are on the table. People's minds aren't really going to change from what they already are, that just has to be accepted by both sides of the argument.

Well, I think you have to remember where we are; in the real world we don't have that 'niceness' buffer DoA seems to have. On DoA it's very much 'say something nice, or don't say anything at all'. So to see something so in-your-face is a bit jarring, especially outside of the debate forum area.
Online, I come from the likes of 4chan and somethingaweful as well as many forums with a high male ratio (and lots of trolls), but even I was a bit jarred seeing the signatures, since they are so glaringly opinionated for DoA. On other forums, it wouldn't bother me. On here it gives the aura of picking sides to a battle. Being on DoA, to me, is like floating on a cotton candy cloud it tends to be more genteel in nature, and even I have to hold myself back a bit.

 

Speaking for myself here, since I know I complained about them earlier...

It's not that they're a huge awful deal, but it feels like throwing fuel on the fire and constantly keeping the issue going. For the record, though I have a Mikhaila on layaway, I wouldn't put an aggressively pro-Leeke thingy in my sig for the exact same reason -- I just don't think it helps the situation at all. Civil discussion is not a bad thing, but seeing how easy it is to misinterprate tone on the internet, sometimes it's better to stick to less is more when it comes to trying to get people's attention.

Also, I'm more understanding of people being outspoken about real world political issues (and I'm that way myself), because those are the things that can have a huge impact on everybody. This however, is a hobby site -- a place to go to relax and chat with other people who are into the same thing I am, so having lots of in your face style drama is something I'd just rather not have to deal with here -- again, I don't mean I have a problem talking about it nicely, I just don't enjoy things being shoved in my face and choose to give those on the other side the same respect. That's what I really view it as -- a matter of respect.

 

I don't said they wanted money I said they COULD have get some money out of this. Like Leeke paid an amount for taking inspiration via one of theyre work.

 

Why should Leeke have to pay someone for inspiration?

I think that the sigs, petitions, the constant back a forth bickering has gotten out of control. I don't find an issue with supporting D.D, but sadly a lot of the supporters have become increasingly aggressive with people who don't agree with them. I've read messages from people telling people who decided to buy Mikhaila that they hope they enjoy their bootleg copy and they hope it's horrible quality, calling people out of there name, wishing ill will towards people.

And acting like that is not a good way to support a company that you love. You show your support iy by buying from them, directing people to their website or flikr account, and telling the artist that you love their work and can't wait to see more. The fans have cause more of a commotion that the actual artist.

 

I have no intention of buying either Puns or Mikhaila, but I've been following this debate/argument closely. I haven't seen the specific posts you described-- although I have seen snarkiness on BOTH sides. I hope that you reported the offending posts!

I agree that the nastiness needs to end. On both sides. Even the snarkiness, such as naming one's doll to commemorate (?) this argument. It's petty and childish. As a forum certainly we can do better. It is entirely possible to disagree politely.

As Armelia wrote earlier, there are a lot more pressing things to be worrying about-- like the thousands of missing people in Japan, the radioactivity in their food and water, etc.

The issues surrounding playthings pale in comparison.

 

Sakuraharu

you're so right! I don't know to express my opinion sometime and I love to see when people are in the same feelings as I am.

 

No disrespect meant. I was simply stating that no matter how offensive something around me can be I always have the option of simply turning away. No one has directly pulled me into the argument (that's be pretty hard to do on the interwebs) so the sigs as a personal expression of opinion are just that. They're the bumper stickers of the internet world! XD When it comes down to a choice of either allowing something offensive or censoring it I always opt for allowing. I hate censorship. I know this place is the giant cloud of fluffiness and love, but I like that we as hobbyists can disagree on things. It shows the real diversity of the group.

Honestly I'm not really attracted to either doll, just not my cup of tea. So whether you avoid Leeke, support Leeke, or are completely indifferent you are OK in my book.

 

Agree...what I don't like about the boycott thing is it's for the WHOLE leeke product...this attitude may drive owners who boycott leeke also may boycott other leeke doll owners. I'm not exagerrating.
I own a leeke body...aaand, i feel like, oh, this body is included in the boycott 'event'...

You know what? I'm so so so tired with gapping doll owners or boycotting doll owners or hating doll owners because of one two flaws. I had this experience...these people are generalizing...and I personally, don't like generalizing...and believe me, there was hatred spread in this DoA. Thank goodness, Mods responded fast...
It makes me feel trauma (and not just me) but also my doll friends...we were starting to loose our fun in dolling...
I'm still loosing my fun until now...and now, some people want to boycott ANY leeke product?...ooh...i feel kinda discriminated already as a leeke body and wigs owner...I feel like it's a sin if i show my leeke stuff in a doll meet or such...I feel like, i have to show them the purchasing bill print to show that I buy the stuff long before mikhaila-gate...
Really, in a doll community in my country, an issue came up and i felt that way...like I felt i had to ask permission from a bunch of kids for my dolls...to show them the proof of originality...bah...my dolls are all genuine...why would i want to do that...moreover, I'm older than them and it's my money...(okey...i'm all over the place...haha...sorry)...

I won't buy mikhaila though even if I like it (if...but I don't) with this issue...but i don't mind buying mabel or other bodies or other dolls or their wigs or their stuff...that's me...my fair judgement may be different but well...that's my opinion...

 

It's ok I was just explaining why I reacted the way I did. I have no problem with people disagreeing as long as it's civil (and I do really like a good debate), and I'm hardly the signature police. It's sort of a time and place thing -- and the fact that words have very real power. The way in which people make a statement (as much as the statement itself), can have a biiiig impact, and that's something that often seems to get forgotten in the heat of the moment.

Me, I've been meaning to do something nifty and creative with my signature for the past 6 months or so, and still haven't gotten around to it *sigh*

If it makes you feel any better, this will pass. I was around for the huge blow up over Dollzone (and ran my mouth then more than I probably should have ), and after a time things died down. There are still some folks who won't by from Dollzone, as is their right. However, the actual nastiness towards other owners and angry threads really faded away, and the company itself is quite successful. Community blow ups just happen from time to time.

 

Thank you for this. Yes, yes, and yes.