Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

I agree with this. I'm a big believer in social action, strikes, demos, etc. However, this is not that kind of an issue, and takes away from activism on bigger issues when we apply those tactics to something like this, which is fundamentally between Leeke and Dust of Dolls. Issues around artistic work, creativity, and intellectual property are absolutely important, but require different tools than social justice, natural disaster, etc. And I don't think it really helps Dust of Dolls to speak for them unasked, especially in an aggressive tone.

 

Exactly. If anything, it actually runs more the risk of harming Dust of Dolls. I hate to admit it, but my opinion of them (D.D) suffered when I saw those banners. I know that it's not their fault or their choice for their loyals to act that way, but it's just my knee-jerk reaction to the whole nasty 'boycott banner' situation. I have to keep reminding myself that Dust of Dolls is not at fault for the behavior of their customers.

 

This is what I think....

Same with Aria Doll and Unoa bodies to me I'd never buy Aria doll products because to me I think it's too much of a rip off from Unoa. People can argue all they want but to me I've blacklisted Aria doll already. And do owners that have it make me loose respect for them? Maybe.

As long as it has a certain percentage of difference it is technically legal for a product to be claimed authentic and not a copy so many people work around it. This happens in any business any product line.... But buyers like us can still choose to skip a product like this. There's nothing wrong with it. And for those that still choose to buy the product if you really believe in it and think it's fine, then it shouldn't bother you that people are boycotting it unless deep inside you feel some sort of guilt or shame yourself but just don't want to admit it. Otherwise why would you care and be hurt about it? People are free to have their opinions why should they keep their voices down just because it doesn't match yours? I don't mind people defending it so I don't know why we can't voice our opinions too. I don't get it. ^^ There's 2 sides to every coin.

In the left ear, out the right. Maybe this way everyone can take it easy and move on and still enjoy themselves. Selective hearing maybe....

 

I have been following the debate on here and on the french forum, materiel celeste. I have read what D.D have said about the issue on the MC thread and they were always telling people not to be aggressive on DoA or to bash people who have decided to buy Mihkaila. I admire the way they handled the procedure and remained calm.

Also for the boycott issue, the users who chose to boycott choose not to buy directly from leeke anymore, not to bash people who own leeke doll and not even Mihkaila. Like in any debate some people will be more offensive then other but it is my belief that most people will just ignore the futures photos of Mihkaila like they would any brand or model they didn't like.

For the stamp in the signature I think it was all right to put it before the doll was put on sale to make the information available to everyone quickly but now the doll is on sale and most people have make up their mind about the doll. A lot of members have already removed their stamp because of it.

I don't support how leeke have handled the situation nor do I intend to buy from them in a while. I don't personally own a Leeke doll but I have before and I have no problem seeing leeke doll and I will also be looking forward to see pictures of Mihkaila even if I don't approve of leeke methods(not the inspiration part but the pictures on the table and their denial of them). I have no problem at all with anyone buying her, it is their own decision with their money. I will make mine with my money. I just wish the debate wasn't so hateful =(

 

That actually is a common myth. A derivative work is a derivative work no matter how much it is changed. They problem lies in proving it. From everything I have read about copyright, if Leeke based their doll of Puns it is illegal no matter how different it is. But, Leeke will probably get away with it because things like this are very difficult to prove legally. It is up to the community to stand up to Leeke and say they will not accept copyright theft. The community was outraged at Mijn Schatje a couple of year ago. How is this any different? Just because Leeke is also part of our community doesn't mean this is okay.

I see so many people complaining about the "crazy people" boycotting Leeke, but doesn't this go both ways? I have seen more hate directly directly at the people opposing Leeke than to those supporting them. Now this might be just because all the posts were removed, but to judge D.D based off the actions of a few people who are acting irresponsibly in outrage is not fair. Just as it isn't fair to judge Leeke based on their supports actions. You need to look at how each are handling the situation themselves. In my opinion, Leeke handled this situation horribly. They are a professional company - I don't care if they felt the accusations backed them into a corner, they should not be lying! If they just admitted that they used Puns as inspiration this would probably have been over awhile ago. D.D doesn't want compensation; they want the truth. I would have more respect for them arguing they were merely inspired and did not try copy Puns directly. At least then they would have an argument. Denying it all is a blatant lie. The pictures they said were their inspiration were a joke - they looked very little like their final product while Puns looks almost identical. If they didn't copy Puns wouldn't their doll look more like their sketches and their inspiration as opposed to Puns? I wouldn't be surprised if they just got most of those pictures after they were accused.

 

I was under the impression that Dust of Dolls does NOT have a copyright on Puns. And, really, how can you copyright a body type that isn't really unique to your company? I could see them copyrighting the head sculpt or something, but you just can't copyright a body type that you didn't invent.

I can honestly say that I would be pissed if this lawsuit went through, considering there is no foundation to it. I'll say it again, the ONLY thing Leeke did wrong was lie to "cover up" their use of Puns as inspiration. We can't claim to know the reason for that poor decision (although many people have speculated), but it's not because they're guilty of anything.

And as for the behavior of Leeke supporters vs. D.D supporters? From what I hear, there aren't any Leeke supporters telling D.D supporters that they hope their Puns dolls arrive broken and in poor condition and turn green. That sort of behavior on the part of the more aggressive D.D supporters is disgusting to me. Have a little self restraint for goodness sake!

 

Personally when I saw the dolls in question I was curious. You could see the inspiration strongly in the doll, but was it a copy? No, there was enough to understand that the doll was different. Do I think DoD has a right to be upset? Yes. Do I think Leekeworld is a horrible company? No. Are people throwing this out of proportion? Very much so.

I understand forming opinions, I understand being upset to a degree. But when I see some people reacting like this entire lives hinge on this and how they are so despaired or so angry that they are absolutely obsessing over it, it makes me really, really sad. Sad because with all of the issues in the world, and awful disaster that happened in Japan and the quakes that were terrorising New Zealand before that, some people can't seem to see outside of the doll world. I love dolls too but at the end of the day if there is nothing more to someone then dolls, well I worry for that person.

So how do I stand on this.... I'm not Team Leeke or Team Dust Dolls. I respect both companies, and I understand that they are not robots. They're people, sometimes people make mistakes.

 

I would imagine that the posts being removed were not a strike against Dust of Dolls, but merely reflecting the fact that Mikhaila has been approved for DoA and thus has a right to be discussed. As for the comments, there were heated words exchanged on both sides. Have you considered that a lot of the annoyance directed towards the Dust of Dolls supporters was due to the fact that they were posting comments on a thread reserved for a doll that they obviously didn't want to purchase and resented the existence of. When was the last time you visited a thread and started trashing the doll involved? I don't think you'd get a good response to that on any thread in this forum. It is rude - extremely rude. If you don't like the doll, don't want to support it, don't go to the thread and look to start a fight, which was what people were basically doing. As the moderators kept saying, this thread is where you can debate ethics etc. If you have no interest in purchasing Mikhaila, discussing the usual things such as what clothes, wigs, eyes etc will fit - what other purpose is there in visiting or posting? People came strictly to post and stir up negative feelings and they succeeded.

 

Copyright is automatic - it is not something you have to obtain. And they are not claiming a copyright on the body type, they are claiming a copyright on Puns itself. You can make a pear shaped body in many ways, but Leeke's body is a clear copy of their doll. I've made the analogy before, but this is like someone copying someone else's painting, of say a flower. This is different than painting the same flower (body type) - that is inspiration and completely acceptable. But, copying the painting itself is illegal! Just because some changes are made doesn't change the fact that it is a derivative work, it only makes it less obvious and harder to prove.

And behavior of the aggressive supporters on both sides disgusts me. The only places I have seen aggression towards Leeke supporter is when they say things supporting the controversy itself. Not saying it doesn't exist elsewhere, but this isn't one sided. It just pains me to see people letting out their aggression on D.D when they have done nothing wrong themselves. Leeke is the one who blatantly lied about their actions. And, photo-shopping the image and accusing D.D of doctoring the original is deplorable and negates any chance they had at innocence. Wanting to buy a doll is one thing, and I will not hold it against anyone who buys Mihkaila, but I cannot understand how someone can support a company that manipulates its customers though lies.

And Hobbysue, I agree it is very rude to bash a doll in the discussion thread and I would never support such actions, but again, this goes both ways. If you don't want people bashing Mihkaila in that thread than you should not be saying things to incite it. If people are deliberately saying controversial things and saying thing against D.D than these things should at least be allowed to be defended. And this isn't about not liking a doll. I actually like Mihkaila. It is about standing up for what is right and showing these companies we will not stand for copying and worse, lies, not matter how much we may want the doll itself. It is about principals.

 

If they are claiming a copyright on Puns itself, then there's nothing to argue about because Puns the whole doll was not copied or even used for inspiration. Puns the doll's BODY type was used for inspiration. A body that is not unique to Dust of Dolls.
Leeke didn't copy the painting, they used the painting as a reference (which happens all the time in the art world) to paint their version of the same type of flower!! That is my whole point!! It's NOT a copy! The bodies aren't the same and so there's NOTHING copied about Mikhaila except the silhouette, which D.D doesn't own!

Now that I've said that (for probably the eighth time), I'm going to stand next to Hobbysue's post and take a break so I can sleep and then go to work...

-
ETA: I just have to add, how the heck were the people buying Mikhaila inciting Dust of Dolls supporters to come into a thread that had NOTHING to do with them and bash the people in that thread? That seems like a stretch to me.

 

They do; it's a completed work as sculpture and is as such copyrighted.

As to whether Mikaila is officially a derivative work or not... I really don't feel qualified to say where the line between 'inspired' and 'directly duplicated' is when it isn't a recast.

I would not personally feel comfortable buying the doll from Leeke. I would feel comfortable buying the doll from D.D. I would feel comfortable buying wigs from Leeke.

 

A derivative work is any work based off a copyrighted work. Here is a good link. For example, making a sculpture based off a picture is a derivative work. That is what Leeke did. They didn't just take inspiration from Puns. They based their doll directly off of Puns. Yes, they changed some things, but they still based it off of Puns. Changing some things does not make it an original work! They can deny this all they want but the evidence is there. They said the artist never heard of D.D but there were pictures of Puns on their desk! It doesn't get more obvious than that.

I have seen posts in that thread with the sole purpose of stirring more controversy. I don't want to list specifics because I don't want to call anyone out personally but they are there. I am not saying that some D.D supporters are not fault, just that this goes both ways. Also, I have seen quite a few people bragging about their decision to buy the doll because of the controversy and even posting on D.D's blog/flickr about it. There are many that feel that buying this doll is telling companies that it is okay to rip off other artists. While I do not agree with anyone directing any rage or criticism on the customers themselves, it is easy to understand why people that feel this way would be upset with others bragging about buying the doll.

To add, I am not very good with words (I'm a math/engineering student so I don't often get to write anything but proofs) so I apologize if I said something offensive, that is not my purpose. I also am not qualified to make decisions about the legal side of copyright, but I do my best to research before I say anything. I'd urge everyone read D.D's site here and Leeke's response here before making any decisions.

 

firefly5003 - In all honesty, what comes across from you is that Dust of Dolls supporters are rightful crusaders against wrong, supporters of principles and defenders of right etc, etc. Wow, the only time you've seen aggression towards Leeke supporters is when they say things supporting the controversy. So basically a 'leeke supporter' - and we're apparently all part of a team now - only has to open their mouth to be in the wrong. I suggest you go look on the Q&A at Leeke and read some of the disgusting things Dust of Dolls supporters have written there. And my point remains - if you have no interest in the doll, no interest in buying, what were you doing in the thread in the first place? Have you seen a post from me in the Puns thread? People react when attacked, if you don't like what gets said, don't go looking for a fight in the first place.

I should also add that I don't consider myself a 'leeke supporter' merely a person who is willing to believe that while they may have used Puns as inspiration, that Leeke has created their own type of doll. As I have said I can understand why people are upset, but given the overall tolerance towards other 'imitators' on this forum (and others), the reaction against leeke seems over the top. And on a similar note, I find the accusations that were being tossed around about the Enaibi (sp?) head just as wrong. Mikhaila looks like a modified Alvin head to me. Leeke has done similar eyes and heads in the past without accusations of copying. A lot of heads have similar features.

Edit: What difference does it make what reason people have for buying dolls? I've heard some pretty stupid ones over the years and refrained from commenting negatively. We have to justify purchases now? From what I was reading, a customer buying the doll simply because they liked it was wrong as well. At the end of the day, I am buying her because I love the look of her. Would it be better if I was buying her to match my carpet - she does, you know. Do you honestly feel that there is ANY right reason to purchase Mikhaila - NO! You've stated quite clearly that there isn't. So any reason or anyone who buys her is morally in the wrong. Well, I resent being told that my purchases have to be ok'ed (even morally) by someone else. I also resent being told that I'm not entitled to my opinion or that it is simply wrong. And like most people in the Mikhaila thread, I assume that telling companies it is okay to copy was done a loonnnnggg time ago because it is fairly rampant now.

 

I never said any of that and I would appreciate if you didn't put words in my mouth. I never said that D.D supporters are rightful crusaders against wrong, I am just saying that many of us believe strongly in copyright and we want to defend those principles. Others may not agree and that is fine but each side has a right to make their points heard. There are people acting poorly on both sides. Why is it okay to bring up one side of the controversy in the doll discussion thread but not the other? If you believe that that is not the place for it than don't bring it up at all.

I think people need to remember that Leeke lied and doctored photos! There is no defending that. I'll bring it up again, I heard no one complain about people standing up against Mijn. People were outraged and some did go too far and were very rude. But, very very few people were offended by the people accusing Mijn, at least inside the doll community. Why is this so different?

 

Well, when did buying a doll become about principles? It's a hobby NOT a crusade. And I keep calling it a crusade because that is how it appears. Plus firefly5003, I was not putting words in your mouth, I was saying how it appeared to me. And any comments I made in the thread were in response to people with no interest in Mikhaila posting there.

I believe the issue with Mijn, that she had stolen photos and used them in her work. My understanding was that she used the actual doll photos in her work. I only have a vague knowledge of the issue and don't really want to comment, I didn't pay much attention to it quite frankly. As for why so few people were offended, I'm guessing it was because they were preaching to the choir to quote an old saying. Had they posted the comments on Mijn's yahoo art group for example, they may have received quite a different response.

 

Will you please stop using DoD! I keep thinking Doll of Dreams, and its getting rather confusing and pain the butt. Use another abbreviation if you have to, but stop using DoD. Sorry for the rant.

I hate jumping into the ring of fire, but it seems any controversy issue pop up with a company, there is always people taking sides and then things get out of hand like this for an example. I am not saying all controversy topics end up like this. As the side thing, I take no sides.

What HobbySue wrote is sorta true about D.D supporters. If you support D.D why not kindly write a letter to Leeke to express your thoughts about this controversy instead of spamming their message boards calling Leeke a thief and rude slurs etc. To me that is childish and not helping this situation any further. Same goes for some of the Leeke supporters. Yes you are angry and upset, but doing what you are doing is going out of the boundaries and taking it a little to far. As stated in the Announcement, Leeke have agreed to talk things over with D.D, so please can't we just sit tight and wait for the verdict without grabbing each other throats..

I am just fed up with the drama, and this place isn't fun to be around if people keep jumping each other throats over this controversy. I miss lurking in the Leeke M threads since I love their Minis/MSD, but I avoid it like a plague because of the drama there. Can we please all get along whether you support Leeke or not.

Don't kill me cause I spoke my thoughts.

 

Firefly, I think the problem Hobbysue and Kelaria are having (and both of you feel free to correct me!) is that you, and so many Dust of Doll supporters are indeed saying that you as a group are morally superior and in the right. You yourself come off that way even while saying that isn't the case. The attitude is, 'Enjoy your doll, you morally bankrupt, cheep-o, we'll jut be over here, you know, on the side of the law and poor Dust of Dolls, who will literally be destroyed as a company by this!'

Anyone who's read Dust of Doll's public reply to Leeke has seen the same exaggeration coming out of their own mouths as their supporters, such things as this will 'destroy them as a company, if Mikhaila is released.' I think people on the other side of the debate are feeling that it would be hard to side with Dust of Dolls even if they were in the right, simply because of their continued use of such exaggeration, which seem to serve not to be constructive statements to Leeke, or statements on the issue itself, but claims designed only to further inflame their own angry supporters. As someone who's loved and supported Dust of Dolls I was incredubly let down by their statments, which made me feel as if no one on the Dust of Doll's side could be bothered to make carefully thought out and unoffensive remarks and of course why would they feel they have to if Dust of Dolls themselves using inflammatory language?

The two biggest points I see trying to be made are about supporting copyright and people further following Dust of Doll's lead in their sarcastic, 'Thanks for the pictures Leeke!' comment on the Making story pictures. It would seem that you're saying, Firefly, that you're not making a case against Leeke supporters, you just want to stand over here, on the side of right, where all the people who support copyright are... But that's the exact kind of statement Hobbysue was talking about.

In the case of this doll, if you believe in the abstract idea of a pear shaped doll, then there can be no claim of copyright infringment because an idea can't ever be owned under copyright. And when I say that, there are many people quick to jump on me and say, 'Oh pfft, whatever eyeroll, obviously you know nothing about copyright. If you can prove you have the idea first then it' covered under law.' That actually isn't the case. I think the problem stems from not understanding the legal definition of an 'idea', which I encourage everyone to look up for themselves, as it's to big an issue to really tackle here.

So, if the idea of Dust of Dolls and their supporters being legally right isn't an absolute one, then of course people would feel offended and attacked by claims that they're legally doing something wrong by buying a 'stolen' doll.

And now the second point many people are behind is, 'Of course Leeke is guilty, you're gullible and uninformed if you still support Leeke after they doctored photos that clearly show Puns!' But, if as Dust of Dolls and their supporters say, Mikhaila is an exact copy of Puns... then wouldn't it be just as likely, if not MORE likely, that the incomplete picture to the right of the Mikhaila prototype, is a figure drawing of what Mikhaila is being sculpted to look like? Because if Puns and Mikhaila look as exactly alike as some of saying, wouldn't a picture of a Mikhaila prototype and a picture of Puns be impossible to tell apart in a photo as small and incomplete as the one we've seen? Short of Leeke holding up that photo and taking a picture of it, we don't know.

So if neither of the points you're making are totally sound, then of course people making those statements will be hard to accept as part of a debate and not part of a personal attack.

The hard facts or smoking just aren't there in the eyes of 'Leeke Supporters' (which I know is a terrible name for a group of people who, many of, aren't trying to directly support Leeke themselves), but that doesn't mean we don't also know copyright law, or that we've decided to blindly follow Leeke to the destruction of Dust of Dolls.

It makes a better argument if someone is clearly right and clearly wrong, but it's less clear in a debate such as this.

 

That is precisely how I feel, that I am accused of being unprincipled for buying a doll.

I think the real problem and frustration revolves around how little satisfaction Dust of Dolls and their supporters have received. They wanted Leekeworld to pull Mikhaila from sale. This hasn't happened and won't. They wanted Leekeworld to acknowledge she was a copy of Puns. This hasn't happened and most likely won't. They wanted DoA to ban her from the Forum. This hasn't happened and at this point in time, won't. They wanted everyone to stop buying from Leekeworld (ie boycott them). This hasn't happened and most probably won't.

Hence the overall frustration with the situation and with the Leekeworld Mikhaila buyers in particular. Let's face it, if you can convince enough people not to get her, to make them feel bad about buying her, you stand more chance of punishing the company. Reality check: If people want to buy her, they're going to buy her. If they think she's pretty and want her and they have the funds, they will pay for her. Very little puts people off in this hobby, just check out the rest of this thread and the waiting rooms. People buy dolls from companies that have 'ripped off' people directly. I'm fairly certain that for every one person admitting to buying her, there are at least three or four that are doing it discreetly. All the fuss does is drive them underground.

 

In all fairness, all firefly5003 did say was that she believes strongly in copyright, and wants to defend those principles. However she might come across or sound, I believe it's all part of the heated debate, which makes both sides perceive certain qualities in the opposite side - these qualities may or may not be present in fact. I've been following this debate from Dust of Dolls' flickr, where those who sympathized with Dust of Dolls felt that Little_Fox_Lady was being overly harsh with her comments. Little_Fox_Lady's comments probably weren't meant to come across as sounding superior, but as in this situation, with people feeling strongly for either side, it's inevitable that there would be some misperceptions. I think it's alright to voice your own opinion, especially if you feel strongly, but at the same time, it would be good to try not to make assumptions about what the other side might be trying to say.

I feel that Dust of Dolls has been extremely courteous when dealing with Leeke. For one, they kept Leeke's emails to them confidential, as requested by Leeke. If they were feeling really vengeful, they might just have released the emails to the public, and Leeke would have suffered all the more, considering all the "anti-Leeke" sentiments that have been going around (this is just my opinion!!!). Dust of Dolls might have come across as having exaggerated, but do remember that they worked for years on Puns. As artists who take pride in their own work, I think they have the right to exaggerate a little; after all, Puns is not just a financial investment, but an emotional one as well. Also, Dust of Dolls gave Leeke considerable information about Puns during the convention, and it is understandable if they feel that Leeke betrayed their trust by releasing Mikhaila. As to whether or not Dust of Dolls meant to "inflame their own angry supporters", this is as much an assumption as saying that Leeke was heavily inspired by Puns in their creation of Mikhaila. Only Dust of Dolls knows the intent behind their statements to Leeke, just as only Leeke knows whether or not Puns played a role in the creation of Mikhaila.

I don't think Dust of Dolls' language counts as inflammatory; they did accept Leeke's offer to meet up in person, but in the company of their lawyer. Leeke refused I think? I'm not very sure on this point, but as I mentioned earlier, I feel that Dust of Dolls has been extremely courteous, and in any case, it is rather an exaggeration to say that no one on the Dust of Dolls' side can be bothered to make carefully thought out and inoffensive remarks.

As for the copyright and legal issues, I think it's best to leave it to the two companies who are directly involved. Too much speculation will just lead to more unhappiness on both sides.

I disapprove of Leeke because they doctored the pictures, and then lied about it. If the small picture is so insignificant and is just a figure drawing of Mikhaila, why doctor it? It's not so much about the copying or inspiration... regardless of whether there was any copying or inspiring involved, I feel that Leeke made the situation much worse for themselves by changing the pictures. It doesn't say much for their reputation as a company, if they cannot be honest about an issue that is sparking so much furore.

 

To Leeke supporters, would you mind answering one specific question? I'm honestly curious about what you think about Leeke first denying taking inspiration from d.d, then being disproven by their own photos showing images of puns on their desk during Mikhaila's creation process and finally photoshopping the evidence once they realized the blunder.
Mind you, my question has nothing to do with whether Leeke copied d.d or not, nor with the behaviour of their supporters. Since this thread asks "do we forgive companies too easily?" I'm asking you, would you consider that kind of behaviour (lying and trying to destroy evidence) something that deserves forgiveness or not?