Forgiveness (do we forgive companies too easily or rather the opposite)

Actually, I don't have an issue with people deciding to not buy from Leeke -- that is absolutely their choice, and speaking with your money is an appropriate way to show support or lack there of for a doll company. What I'm iffy about is some of the tactics. These kinds of things to me really come down to a very personal choice made by the owner -- it's not something that should be in your face, or something where people should be out to convince others. Having info available is not bad, but it's better to let the companies involved speak for themselves, IMO, and then let hobbyists decide from there how they feel and what they feel comfortable doing.

The sigs, for instance were/are a call to action -- they're asking people to 1) Boycott Leeke and 2) sign a petition, so by their very nature they are meant to keep the issue fresh and going. However, adding fuel to this kind of thing really just causes a lot of discord in the community and can actually backfire on the company they are trying to support (I have nothing against D.D. by the way, and it would be a shame for their own fans to hurt their reputation).

The issue with Mijn is that she was directly tracing over other people's photos and claiming the resulting work as her own. Tracing something directly is not the same as using a photo (or actual doll) as inspiration for one's own work, so therefore it can be considered a different situation. Here's the thing that you have to understand, though -- if you really believe that the Mikhaila is a total copy of the Pun, then you could draw some kind of parallel. However, if you believe that Mikhaila was merely influenced by Pun, the situation with Mijn is entirely different. And here's the kicker -- the idea that Mikhaila is nothing but a rip off of Pun is not a universally held belief, and it's unlikely that you or anyone else is going to make it so. A lot of people see a doll that was inspired by another doll -- something that happens all the time, and is very accepted by the community. That is how we get variation along any given theme with bjds.

The photo thing was the only not so smart thing that Leeke did -- and all the furor, probably didn't help them want to be upfront about things either. They are far from the only company who has said something they shouldn't have, but in the grand scheme of things, this is not something that causes me great concern as they didn't A) Actually copy Pun (in my mind at least) B) Try to rip off their customers. The whole thing was really bad damage control gone awry, and for me personally, it's not something that would stop me from purchasing from them. If you are not comfortable buying from them over this, that's absolutely fine and your right. However, don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion as yourself in this. Though I don't agree with them, I actually can see where D.D. and their fans are coming from. It would be nice if you and others could do the same for the folks you are disagreeing with.

 

Taco: I just want to clarify that when I said most people, I meant most of the people against this doll not the community ^^' Please forgive my poor phrasing and english.

 

Well, I have been told so many different lies from companies, including 5 months of continual lying from customhouse, that it didn't even make me blink. I'm at the stage where I just start to enjoy the creative fiction. But that's me. I think it was mentioned a couple of pages back that someone felt that Leeke was behaving like a child caught in a naughty act. "No I didn't really do it, it wasn't me". Keep in mind that even if the photos were in the background, is it actual proof - not necessarily. For all we know, they could have been going for an artistic effect with various photos strewn around. 'Oooh, look at our artistic workspace'. Stranger things have happened. Realising that their 'arrangement' had been misconstrued, they altered the photos. Stupid perhaps, but does it worry me or even interest me. No, not really. Again, it boils down to different things bug different people. When I look at Mikhaila, do I see Puns - no. And that for me is the major factor. I do think she could have been heavily inspired but I think she is a different doll. And the only major difference I see between this instance of 'inspiration' and many others on this forum is that Puns and Dust of Dolls had a following on the french forum who got stirred up and went to war.

Definitely, it may be crystal clear to you that Mikhaila is a distinct copy, but it isn't as obvious to others. At least not to the extent that we should be getting fired up, starting boycotts and signing petitions. I am very sure that Dust of Dolls must feel very betrayed because they talked to Leekeworld and let them take photos etc. I feel sorry that it is affecting them to the extent that they feel five years worth of work has been destroyed. That is so sad and such a shame. But I really don't believe that Leekeworld has done anything different to numerous other companies out there. They've seen something they liked and created their own.

 

I'm not a Leeke supporter, but after what I said before in this topic Muisje wrote something that changed my mind on the subject and that's this:

An off-topic example: have you ever been in the situation where someone's secretly in love with you, but you denied that fact, because you enjoyed the friendship too much? You kind of know that you should talk to him about this, 'cause things could get messy in the future if you don't, but at the same time you're hesitating. What if you ruin what you two have by bringing this up? What if you're just seeing things and he will think you're a fool?
Then one day, he nervously confesses how he feels about you. After a short, akward moment, where you tell him it could never work out, he asks wether or not you knew about this before, 'cause something in the way you responded made him feel you were not completely honest with him. He looks a bit angry and hurt, because if you did know, his feelings didn't have to be hurt.

How in the world are you able to say "yes" now? At this point, there's so much at stake (your friendship with him, the way he sees you - your reputation so to speak - and more...), that it's easier to say "no" and hope this embarrassing moment will pass and things turn back to normal.

When you lie, there comes a point where you can't go back anymore. There's so much too loose if you confess, that it's easier to stick to the lie, even when it's obviously the best approach to admit that you were wrong. Destroying your own reputation by showing you weren't honest, feels so unnatural and goes against everything you were working for, that in panic, you make things worse by covering up one lie with the other (and another, and another).


What Leeke did was typically human behavior. I don't think it's right, but that's that.

 

Some D.D supporters were agressive i guess, but on DoA, i didn't see anything like that (i didn't read every threads).
But on the other "side", the DoA staff lets some posts like this one, on Mikhaila's thread :

Maybe they should have erased this one too.
Some have seen "boycott" stamps in a provocating way, and were allowed to respond with provocation too.
I'm part of those who won't kill Mikhaila's lovers, if you want this doll, that's a hobby, we won't do anything about it.
And i didn't answer anything when i saw some saying "i'll buy Mikhaila 'cause Puns is to ugly to be an inspiration".
And other "great" posts on the petition itself u_u
Mikhaila is not an awful doll, she's pretty cute actually.
So i'd prefer to see efforts on BOTH sides too.
Last month, i received a big group order from Leeke, but i won't sell my resin ribbon or wigs, i just won't buy anything from them again until they reverse the situation, that's all.
(And i haven't used the stamp here)
One of my best friends doesn't really like the idea of don't buy anything from Leeke, but i won't bit her XD
And there is not only D.D or Leeke supporters, there are some who just want to respond in a negative way to a dash of support.
I'd like to see more efforts on the two main sides to make others stop the "crusade"

 

Yukito- Am I suppose to see something aggressive from that Little fox lady post?

 

The mods do a pretty good job at keeping the peace, thankfully. In the Mikhaila thread there are posts from both sides about the issue -- part way through the mods said enough, and then began deleting posts. However, the ones towards the beginning of the thread as far as I know are all still there. The thread was just encouraged to go in a new more positive direction. Also, as far as I know, the mods don't seem to have a problem with any of the sigs, it's just been some regular users (including myself) that have indicated they don't like them.

That's the problem with things like this -- when one side gets upset and goes on the offensive there usually ends up being some kind of backlash. I'm not saying that's right, as there are better ways to handle the situation, but that's what does tend to happen. That's why people need to think hard about the ways in which they go about trying to get people's attention and support -- if they aren't careful, it can really backfire.

There are also always some people who just like drama -- there's no getting around that either. I think given time, that this will burn out much like other situations have in the past, and people will quietly make their own decisions and move on.

 

The problem is that while Leek 'copied' another doll they did sculpt their own doll.

The reason I'm not buying Mikhaila is this: When I saw the side by side pictures of Puns (who I was not aware of before Mikhaila) I thought they were the same size doll! I didn't know Puns was 26cm and the fact that side by side Puns and Mikhaila were such a close proportional match means Leeke copied the exact proportions and just enlarged the doll. If you look at the proportions of a Yo size doll against an MSD doll they are very different! It's those exact matching proportions that make Mikhaila a copy.

Leeke could have taken the pear shape body type in a thousand directions but they didn't. I can't say how legally legit the case is but it it just plain wasn't cool on Leeke's part.

But that said I think a clear message has been sent and I don't think Leeke will do the same thing again. They have learned from their mistake and I hope they will continue to make different body types that are their own unique creations.

So while I'm not officially boycotting them I'm certainly not buying anything from them right now. Also I've never actually bought anything from them in the first place...

 

I never meant to imply that we thought we were morally superior. Copyright is one of the principles we stand behind strongly. And of course we believe we are in the right, just as I am sure you believe you are in the right. But in reality this debate is about morality and ethics, so if we do not have morality to stand by the debate is moot. Others may believe there is nothing morally wrong with what Leeke did and that is their right. I believe there is nothing morally wrong with a lot of things that others find appalling. I do not believe that makes me morally bankrupt; I just have different beliefs. But that is the point of a debate - to challenge those beliefs.

The replies I read from D.D were very thought out and unoffensive. I can't speak for them, but from what I read don't want Leeke destroyed. They believed that Mikhaila is a copy of their doll so they did not want it sold - I think that is reasonable. Just to make it clear, D.D have stated numerous times that they do not want anyone to feel bad about buying Mikhaila and they want them to enjoy their doll. I think the biggest issue here is the truth. You can argue that Leeke lying it is just a knee-jerk reaction out of pressure, but they had time to reply and think of a response and they chose to lie. They could have easily said they they used Puns as inspiration and that they did not believe it was a copy. Or even just had chosen not to make a statement until consulting with lawyers. I would have a lot more sympathy for Leeke if they did that than to say the artist never saw Puns.

And again, this isn't about body shape and no one said you can copyright an idea. No one has a problem with Leeke making a pear shaped body. That is not the issue at all. It is that they tried to copy the doll itself. You can see it in the curves of the torso. Even the belly button is copied. Yes, they changed things, but I believe they directly based Mikhaila off of Puns and the pictures on their desk help prove this. And I do know this happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right. It just gets to me more, personally, when it is done to just two artists to have worked hard for over a year on their doll. The curves and proportions of a doll don't just happen, they are the result of a lot of hard work and thought. That is why I believe copying a doll down to the curves is wrong. To me, it is the same thing as tracing in the illustration world (where as literally taking the picture, possibly painting in a few changes, and making copies would be like recasting). Not to say I wouldn't support a company if a small artist was stealing from them - but that small artist would have a much harder time getting defenders and support than a large company so it wouldn't be such a problem.

And the pictures are very obviously Puns. Both matched up perfectly to a picture D.D posted of Puns. And we didn't say Puns is an exact copy, it obviously isn't. Just a copy. They clearly changed things and it clearly isn't the exact same doll. The problem is that it is based directly off Puns, which we believe constitutes a copy.

Again, I am not the best with words or debating so I apologize if I said anything offensive, that is not my purpose.

 

That's just one of the skin-tones available. There are Puns with human skin tones as well and when they're wearing wigs (covering the ears) and clothes they look human

 

Taco > i totally agree with you.
And yeah, some love dramas u_u
About Fox' post, i wasn't talking about the sigs, but about the direct link to her Flickr with her sig, after the "angry Püns folks".
That would have been wiser and more diplomatic to bring things differently, and in another thread, especially after several calls to order of the staff.
Actually, i'd like the two sides to be concerned by the staff's warnings, and creators feelings too.

Kim > i invit you to see Esthy's pictures of Constance, her Püns, then =3

 

firefly5003 - Well, I guess I'm missing the aesthetic, but I don't see the curves as being that unique either. I look at the expanded belly features where they photoshopped the gentle body into pearshape in the making story and it looks like Mikhaila's belly. The main issue is that they changed the hip jointing for me. They said that they felt the joints they had weren't working - obviously they tried - so swapped to another style. Yes, Puns probably influenced that jointing, but similar joints have been used before, so they're not unique either. Which pretty much cuts out the copyright issue for me. As for morality and right - where do you draw those lines? How about Fair Trade? Have you made sure that the dolls you've bought were not produced in BJD sweatshops?

Yukito: Again, that post was probably stirred up by the fact that people were posting banners in their signature. I don't think it is necessary for ANYONE to have banners in their signature regardless of their viewpoint. Nor do there need to be negative comments made about Puns. From what I have seen, most of the people buying Mikhaila feel they would not be buying Puns but there are people who would buy both. I think that comes down to Puns head. She has very exaggerated ears and what I would describe as a 'cartoonish' look. I don't know how else to describe it. It's not anime, and the only place I've seen ears like that are in cartoons. I don't mean it as an insult, they could also be animal ears ie panda, even Koala. I'm just not sure how to describe her overall look. Describing her as part anthro just sounds weird. Posting negative comments on a petition is self defeating I would say as you then go in the vote against her.

 

I agree with you actually, i think Leeke could have done so many different pear shaped bodies without being anything like the Puns. It has too much in common in my opinion not to be a copy. Couple that with the fact that at the doll convention they where next to each other. It seems unlikely this happened by chance.

I do believe Leeke are in the wrong. Now keeping on topic, i can forgive Leeke for doing something like this if they put it right and seem to learn from their mistake. But until then i don't think i will buy anything from Leekeworld. And i think being suborn on this is fine for me, because i know this is not the first time Leeke have done this. And if they even did it a 3rd time, i don't think i would ever buy a product from them again. I do think that this is as bad as a copied doll, because the French artists did do all the work on the design and making it work.

 

*Points to thread title* I understand that this Leeke discussion needs to be had somewhere, people want to say their piece, but can we please move it to it's own thread? I feel like we're getting close to completely off topic on this one. This was meant to be about whether we forgive companies too easily NOT whether leeke copied.

 

Their photoshopped gentle body does not look much like their final result, while Puns does. I bet if you took the measurements of Puns and Mikhaila, and I mean complete measurements (like the distance from the chest to the belly button to the waist to the hips), and scaled them, the measurements would be very very close. I know it is impractical for me to say the artist directly copied Puns since I do not know what was going through the artist's head. But the pictures on the desk so that clearly the had Puns in mind, and I think the similarities in proportions make this more than just inspiration. And I only have a couple dolls, but I would never knowingly support a company that engaged in practices that I believed were unethical.

I think it is unfortunate the the picture most see is the one painted to look like a panda. And I hope they don't mind, but here are some pictures showing Puns a bit more like a typical doll. And I agree that the head is different so there will be different people buying it. But, there is so much more to a BJD than it's head. They body is what makes these dolls unique. Leeke could have easily made their own interpretation of a pear shaped body that wasn't so heavily influenced by Puns. I think they could have at least went to D.D and asked for permission to use Puns as reference. I understand this is a hard thing to do, but, I believe this crosses the line of inspiration, thus permission is applicable. They mentioned talking about compensating D.D but this was after the fact - after they tried to get away with it a lie.

I can understand how people don't see the similarities, or how people don't see the difference between Puns and Mikhaila and any pear shaped doll. I am a very visual person, and the similarities between Puns and Mikhaila scream out at me. I have seem many pear shaped dolls, but they all have far more difference than Puns and Mikhaila have.

I could forgive Leeke if they just admitted their mistakes and took responsibility for their actions. This is also not the first time Leeke has been accused of copying. Hopefully they will get the message that this isn't acceptable.

EDIT: I don't want to make a new post again so quickly, but just to respond, it is possible that Leeke started Mikhaila before seeing Puns, and that the similarities are just coincidence and Puns just gave them the final bit of inspiration. If this is the case I am truly sorry the accusations. But, since Leeke saw D.D's booth months earlier and took a ton of pictures of Puns, and since a picture of Puns was on the artists desk, I doubt this is the case. And, the are just too many similarities in the proportions for me to feel it is a coincidence.

And with that I think I am going to leave this debate. It is becoming futile - both sides (I hate saying "sides" but I am not sure what else to call it) already formed their beliefs and no amount of arguing is going to change them at this point. I would just like to remind everyone not to go attacking anyone personally, and not to make your decisions on the issue based of the behavior of others. If your problem is with Leeke please don't take it out on Leeke's fans - all it does is hurt credibility. Information can be spread politely without stirring up drama.

 

I just wanted to point out that it's not that hard for two dolls to have a similar shape/proportion/silhouette to each other and not be connected, not to say that that's what happened here. But I just saw an EID Jessica and a Chicline Lishe and although different sizes their bodies at least in the picture I saw look very similar to each other. Proportion and shape wise. People also keep mentioning that Leeke could have gone a hundred different directions with Mikhaila's design, you're right they could have. But if I'm aesthetically drawn to a certain shape/look why should I change my aesthetic just because someone else has done it already, if I'm creating something? Sure it might keep the controversy away but would it make me happy when I looked at it if in the end it wasn't what I wanted....

And I just want to throw this out there just because, is it possible that Leeke was already in the stages of developing a pear shaped doll, realized what they were doing wasn't quite working, saw D.D's Pun and her jointing and said THIS!, and so they changed the jointing on their doll so it would work better? So that's why the pictures were on the workdesk, not because they were trying to copy pun down to the letter, but to see how she worked better. I know for me personally if I'm trying to do something I haven't done before or just working on something new and it's not working I'm going to find something similar that does work and in essence learn from them. It's seems a bit self defeating to re-invent the wheel if someone already has. Granted for some this would still be copying to them, and in the end only Leekeworld knows what was going through their heads. And why they did what they did.

I know for me personally I don't think Leeke has done anything wrong in the actual -creation- of the doll. I actually think the dolls are quite different to the point I even prefer Pun because of her shape. Pun has a nicer backside to me, and there's something about her thigh and stomach area that just appeals to me more. But like I said that's me.

Anyway these are things I was just thinking about, pay no attention to the woman in the back. ;P

 

A few members were talking about the Leeke copying thing in the Mikhaila Discussion Thread, and one of the mods gave a list of three other threads that would be more appropriate for said conversation. Unfortunately for the OP, this thread seems to have taken the brunt of the load

 

I'd like to address Yukito's comment about my link and everyone else about a Leeke supporter 'copying' D.D supporter tactics just quickly. I was actually very very careful about how I worded that little tag I'm so proud of, I wanted it not to be directly supporting Mikhaila so much as it was in support of all pear shaped dolls, I didn't want anyone to see it and feel I was trying to make them feel bad or feel harassed. When I made the tag, I made it specifically for all the people who sent me private thank you notes on Flickr and DoA and DevientArt, saying that they felt my speaking out had put their voices into the debate, a debate they were afraid to be part of, because they were worried about suffering the same harassment I in turn have. When someone asked Buffalo about her tag I was very pleased, but realized people not following Flickr wouldn't know where to grab it from, or that as I said in the Flickr, that it was freely available to everyone.

Most of these people want to show support for their doll and their choice, but they -don't- want to debate or argue over it, they simply want to show their pride. I didn't mention anything from my Flickr or from my posts when I linked the picture, I only told someone who wanted to tag, that it was free for anyone to use. I'd like to know how my tag is different from other Mikhaila tags that are currently up, but possibly in a PM as I don't want to thread-jack, because to me and the others using it, it's nothing more than a normal picture tag showing their love and support for a doll, it wasn't meant to start fights.

And thank you to Petitle for pointing out that no, the thread isn't directly about this issue, but DoA did point people here who wanted to talk about it. However I think talking about personal feelings of either being able to forgive or unable, because of allot of personal feelings it HAS become a thread of just pages full of bickering.

I wanted to come in and share that I felt, oddly enough, that where as I can forgive Leekeworld, a company I have no history with, of anything they've done simply because of their tact in the matter, it was D.D. who's actions really stunned me, to the point where it doesn't matter how long I've followed them, I'm just not sure I can forgive their outburst of 'exaggerations.' Which, I have to point out to someone else who wanted to say it was alright for them to 'exaggerate,' when I use that word, it's a nice way to say, the have a whole page of lies, that I can't see past them posting to forgive. That, is what I mean.

That said, if anyone feels they need to specifically address other people and argue their points, this might not really be the thread to do it, on Flickr there are pages and pages of D.D. supporters ready to argue the same points as the few people here in this thread, and while I understand the need to defend yourself against hurtful accusations, or what come across to you as accusations, such as being morally wrong to buy a Mikhaila, understand that anyone who wants to argue about your personal feelings isn't going to say at this point, I'm sorry I understand your point even without agreeing with you, so rather than fill this thread with bickering I would say maybe if someone wants to challenge you on your feelings, remember that they can't change your words, even if they try to twist them around, just try not to comment when someone says something like, 'How can you still support Leeke when A) B) C) and D)...'

That wasn't what this topic was about, it was about sharing your own point of view on being able to forgive, or not forgive a company and not trying to derail other people's statements of support or disappointment. We'd all do well to remember it.

 

Plus some people might not forgive Leeke for what they have done. Others have said they might if they made it right. It is wandering a little but some people are still keeping it on topic.

 

Yeah, i agree, but she posted in different threads (in flickr too), and Mikhaila's thread wasn't the place.
That just encourages the "stigmatization" of the future owners of her...

To answer the thread, i think we can forgive once, give the companies another chance, but not twice =/
As i'd think for illustrators, character designers etc...

[Edit] Little-For-Lady > it wasn't just for the link, but i thought it inapropriate and encouraging reactions.
It is not a sig for Mikhaila, but for the Leeke's pear shape, and we can see it as an anti-boycott sig, so it wasn't the thread to link it (a pm to the asking member would have been great too).
I think it's time for the boycott sig to go, and i don't want to see Leeke pear sigs everywhere neither ^^'