1. Become a DoA Archivist!
    Volunteers Needed!
    Dismiss Notice
  2. The Mod team regrets to inform the community that Mirodoll is now banned from Den of Angels. Please view the following thread:
    Mirodoll Banned from DoA
    Dismiss Notice

Getting a Limited on Behalf of a Friend: Right or Wrong? Why?

Feb 13, 2008

    1. OK, here's a nice little debate topic that I don't think we've had or at least not in a while. Let's say there's a contest for limited dolls. Your friend wants one really really badly and can pay. You don't want or can't afford one yourself, but you agree to enter under your own name, on behalf of your friend, with the understanding that if you win, your friend will pay the price of the doll (no more; this isn't scalping or flipping) and will adopt it and love it as their own.

      1. Is this right or wrong? Why?

      2. Would it be wrong to do if the person was a stranger and/or was paying you to do it, but OK to do because it is a friend and you care about them? Does it matter how close the friend is (i.e. a family member or super close friend, rather than just somebody you know more distantly off a forum and are a little friendly with)?

      3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest?

      4. Does the contest being perceived as somehow vague or inherently unfair make a difference? For example, if lots of scalpers often win, does it make it more OK for you to try to get a doll on behalf of someone who really is going to love it and not just turn around and sell it?

      5. Do you think this really cuts into the chances of people who just submit the one entry for themselves?


      Since we've now had this come up with a couple releases (Breakaway, Bermann) I thought it would be interesting to hear everyone's civil thoughts on here.
       
    2. LOL nice thread, bunnydots.

      Alright....I'll bite the bullet.

      1) I think it's perfectly fine. Why shouldn't it be? Unless there are specific rules outlawing the practice for the competition in question, then sure, go ahead. All's fair in love and war, and all that.
      2) I think the emotional aspect of it being a friend or family member would make it seem easier and a little less clinical, but I don't see any difference in practice.
      3) I would probably be inclined (emotionally again) to feel it is more like cheating if the contest is being judged based on individual skill or ability rather than a name out of a hat. But even in this context I suppose it boils down to morals - is it immoral to utilise the resources at your disposal to get what you want? I don't think there is a univsersal set of morals for this type of question. Maybe it even boils down to whether you feel guilty or not. Logically, I wouldn't see a difference.
      4) I would imagine people would try and justify themselves (if they considered it at all wrong in the first place) if they were obtaining for a friend against a bunch of scalpers. But I don't see there being a difference. The concept of fairness isn't something that enters into this for me when it's a business transaction (however dressed up).
      5) Interesting question. Statistically, if I had three people trying to win for me and someone else just entered themselves, then it appeares I'm more likely to win. But each chance in itself can only win or lose, you know?
       
    3. 1. Is this right or wrong? Why?
      Well, I kind of think that it depends on exactly how the situation goes...I don't think its that big of a deal if just one person "helps" you get it, if its your ultimate dream doll. If you go and get 6 of your friends to enter a contest for you, that's a different story, imo...I also think its better if you're keeping a piece of the doll for yourself (like a head or something)..

      2. Would it be wrong to do if the person was a stranger and/or was paying you to do it, but OK to do because it is a friend and you care about them? Does it matter how close the friend is (i.e. a family member or super close friend, rather than just somebody you know more distantly off a forum and are a little friendly with)?
      I don't really think it matters either way, if someone is willing to help you for no extra charge, out of the kindness of their heart, its a rare thing, especially if you're not super close to that person.

      3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest?
      I don't think that really matters either.. Tons of people are going to enter lotteries and it's a random thing so no matter what your odds of winning really aren't that great, even with two entries rather than one. I haven't heard of an essay contest before, but if there is such a contest I think you should write them both yourself...^^;

      4. Does the contest being perceived as somehow vague or inherently unfair make a difference? For example, if lots of scalpers often win, does it make it more OK for you to try to get a doll on behalf of someone who really is going to love it and not just turn around and sell it?
      If they want the doll that badly then I see no problem with it either way, so long as they don't have a whole list of friends going after it. ^^;

      5. Do you think this really cuts into the chances of people who just submit the one entry for themselves?
      In all honesty, I really don't think so...I know people will disagree with me, but honestly a lottery is a lottery. The probability of winning is not in your favor in any way. If its some sort of essay contest? Then possibly yes. It depends on how diverse your essays are and how many people enter..



      I'll be honest, I've gotten a limited doll for my best-friend. He's her ultimate dream doll and nearly died when I told her he was being re-released and she didn't have any money for him. I do have the money, and he's a doll that I like too, and he happens to come with two heads. So, I promised her the spare one, and I'll be keeping the body (she literally broke down in tears when I told her she could have one of the heads too). Since I was at work during his re-release, she placed the order for us and I paid for him when I got home.

      Honestly, I see no problems in a situation like this. I'm keeping most of the doll for myself, and this way she gets the doll she's always wanted too. Plus, we both worked for it (I think she had the more difficult end of the deal though XD).

      There are other situations that I've heard of that I have no issues with either. The only real issue I'd ever have with someone giving a limited/lottery doll to someone is if the person recieving the doll had recruited a large number of people to attempt getting the doll for them.
       
    4. I'm currently in this sort of situation regarding the Bermann release. There are two people I know who very badly want him, and one of them directly asked for help. Neither have owned a Bermann before and both have tried for them previously with no success. I know the chances are still next to nothing that I'll be the winner, but if I do, of course I'll feel a little guilty for only being able to help one friend get him.

      However, I would feel good, very good, that the chance was lowered for people who've already won one or more Bermanns, or who would scalp/flip it. I guess my opinion broils down to the fact that it is business. It isn't going to be fair all of the time, certainly not in this sort of situation where it's hyped up over a silly valuable item appealing to a mass of sometimes desperate people. I help someone because they asked, and because I've personally no use for the doll but am capable of entering.

      Another thing to consider is Volks lotteries. While it's not such a limited thing like Breakaway or Bermann where it's once, once only, and if you don't get him you're likely to never see him secondhand, when you ask someone to go to a Volks event to try and win you a one-off or limited, is that not the same thing? It's far more accepted, since it's Volks and the aftermarket will be saturated with scalped dolls very quickly after the event.
       
    5. OK, here's a nice little debate topic that I don't think we've had or at least not in a while. Let's say there's a contest for limited dolls. Your friend wants one really really badly and can pay. You don't want or can't afford one yourself, but you agree to enter under your own name, on behalf of your friend, with the understanding that if you win, your friend will pay the price of the doll (no more; this isn't scalping or flipping) and will adopt it and love it as their own.

      1. Is this right or wrong? Why?

      This is really a hard one because with it being a contest I would really want to help out my best friend and I know she would do the same for me. I know in the past when my dad wanted to try and win a Harley the entire family jumped in to sign up to help him out. I know at that time we did not really think anything about it.

      2. Would it be wrong to do if the person was a stranger and/or was paying you to do it, but OK to do because it is a friend and you care about them? Does it matter how close the friend is (i.e. a family member or super close friend, rather than just somebody you know more distantly off a forum and are a little friendly with)?

      I would only do it for a friend of family member. Kind of weird to think of someone paying me. If they said they would buy me several dolls that I want I may consider. LOL

      3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest?

      We hear about how 100s of people pull their money together to buy a giant lot of lottery tickets and then they all split the money. With an essay contest though it is suppose to be someones work and thoughts that are actually put into a project to help them win. With an essay contest I would for sure not do it.

      4. Does the contest being perceived as somehow vague or inherently unfair make a difference? For example, if lots of scalpers often win, does it make it more OK for you to try to get a doll on behalf of someone who really is going to love it and not just turn around and sell it?

      Knowing that it is a doll my best friend really wants kind of adds more to me wanting to help her out.

      5. Do you think this really cuts into the chances of people who just submit the one entry for themselves?

      Honestly I believe that if someone enters themselves that they have more then likely used a parent or spouses name as well to be able to enter in again to have another chance to win.


      This is really something that can be debated for a long time and we will find just as many negatives as positives into why many of us would help out someone. We all know that we would like to have someone help us if it was a doll we would like to win.

      Angie
       
    6. It seems like one of the problems with the Bermann release specifically is that the people least likely to scalp/flip, or even resell down the line when they decide they want something else, are also people who have already shown that they want to keep their Bermanns by having one or more. For example, if a person has a website featuring their Bermann and it's obviously a key part of their hobby life, that person has shown that they are likely to hold onto their Bermann(s) because otherwise they could probably sell them tomorrow at a pretty good price. Whereas someone who has no Bermann is a cipher. They could turn out to be a devoted Bermann owner or a scalper/flipper. There's no way of knowing because people will promise not to sell but then change their minds later and if need be, sell under the table so no one knows it's them selling.
       
    7. Because it's totally fair that 6 of the 11 Bermann winners last time already had Bermanns.

      All's fair in love, war, and dolls. I find nothing wrong with entering for a friend to increase their chances of winning. I would rather see the doll in the hands of my friend than a scalper who is immediately going to sell it for a ridiculous profit.

      I really don't agree with the whole essay contest they had last time. It just seemed completely biased. I'm with lotteries, VOLKS STYLE. Take all the applications and draw a name out of a hat. And no duplicate winners (you can't win like, ALL THREE).

      Statistically speaking, with the large number of people entering (probably hundreds of entries at the very least) having 1, 3 or even 10 out of that large number isn't really going to increase your chances of winning by very much.
       
    8. And this is another good point - does it matter exactly HOW limited the doll is? Like, if it's an OOAK or just 10 of a certain type, is that different from 100 or 1000.

      It seems like you're saying it is OK where there is a reasonably large number of dolls, i.e. Volks releases, because even if some people have extra entries, there will still be lots of chances to get the doll.

      However, on the other hand some people are saying "well with a very tiny number of dolls (such as 11 Bermanns) you have very low odds to win whether you have 1 person or 50 people enter for you, so it doesn't matter." Interesting.
       
    9. It all depends on the number of entries. 50 might not even make a dent. While you are increasing your chances of winning, if there are say, 3000 entries for this doll, those 50 entries are only 1.6% of the total number of entires. With only 11 dolls, the liklihood you will will that doll is still small.

      And realistically, i doubt you could get 50 people to enter for you. Chances are it's only going to be 10-15.
       
    10. If I remember correctly I think it was actually 9 of the 11 winners who already owned one or more Bermann.

      I agree with this post completely, and you've said it in a much better way than I could ever muster.
       
    11. And it means nothing that someone else has tried three or four times for a Bermann, never gotten one, and likely never will? They just have to shove it because Anu picks someone who already has one? It's equally as arguable that the already-a-winner will get their second Bermann and go, "Damn, I really don't need two. Oh hey, $6000." It's equally as likely for a previous winner to scalp/flip as a new owner is. I'd much rather give the chance to someone who doesn't already have a Bermann. If someone already has the opportunity to own a bermann and adore it, why not share that happiness with someone who has wanted it for a long time?

      And I'm in no way saying it's only OK in some circumstances. I'm saying it's always okay. While realistically, it would be nice if everyone, scalpers included, only put in one bid for themselves, that will never ever happen. So why not pitch in to help a friend, whether it's to get one bermann out of 11 or one volks out of 100?
       
    12. I personally would have no problem helping a friend by entering a contest or a draw for them. It would severely strain the friendship if they turned around and sold it right away, though. I would only do it if I knew that they really wanted the doll and were going to keep it.

      I'm so glad that I've never wanted a limited doll badly enough to go through this sort of thing. Bermann drama is so harsh!
       
    13. Exactly. If said friend turned around and sold it I would definitely be a little irate. I mean, at least share the profit! ;)
       
    14. My boyfriend and I both entered for the same one-off at the LA Dolpa. (He entered on behalf of me, of course.) He ended up being the winner of the doll, but I went up to accept with him. I was also the one to pay for her. The Volks employees saw all of this and didn't care a bit. There was nothing in the rules that said my boyfriend couldn't enter for me.

      So if the companies don't care if others enter for us, why should we? I fail to see why it's morally wrong to enter for another person. All it is is upping the odds for yourself or a friend.
       
    15. Guys, this is a debate topic, not a Bermann topic. Please do not base every argument on the Bermann release or the topic will be closed. Thanks!
       
    16. Good debate topic!

      Personally, I don't see the problem with getting other people to enter for you at all. I mean, if someone is likeable enough that they can get 50 other people to enter for them, so be it. That's life, and life isn't always fair.

      Besides, it's a doll, not a kidney. Dolls should be fun, not stressful serious business! D:
       
    17. I'm glad a few people think this is a good debate topic. I do too. I don't really have a position myself on the topic, and am mostly interested in hearing people's responses with respect to different forms of "contests". While I've never gotten anyone to enter a contest on my behalf for a doll, I've only entered a few doll contests (probably 4) and always figured if it didn't pan out for me I'd hit the secondary market without too much angst. (Edited to add that the majority of limited dolls I own have been procured on the secondary market and only 2 or 3 were gotten in doll company contests or lotteries.) In other words, although I wanted to win, it was more of just a fun thing and wasn't that important that I would bother to enlist help. On the other hand, I've also been in situations similar to the one someone described about their dad wanted a motorcycle so the whole family each put in an entry. I know if I really wanted, say, my mom or husband to enter a contest for a doll or any other un-critical item like that (i.e. not a kidney, not a case of me asking them to take an exam in my place, or anything ethically crucial like that) they'd probably do it without a second thought.

      On an even broader point, I've studied a lot of economics and law and it's very interesting how people react to processes. I've made the point before on these boards (mostly having it fall on deaf ears like most of what one posts on boards :-) that people are more likely to object to a process and start trying to strategize/game the system/"cheat" whatever you call it to maximize returns, when they feel that a process is unfair or arbitrary. Often this is because they simply don't understand how the decision is being made. For example, if you have a court case and one party feels like the judge is being unfair and favoring the other side, then the "wronged" party will be more inclined to do whatever it takes to help themself, even going so far as to lie or resort to "self-help" outside of court (like having his friends and relatives harass the other party for example). It seems like the same applies, to some extent, in people trying to get limited items. Where people don't have access to the decision making criteria or don't understand what's going on or feel like the deck is impossibly stacked against them, they will use whatever means they can enlist to help themselves.
       
    18. The type of contest does matter to me. If it's a contest that relies on luck rather than skill, I don't see a reason not to increase the chances of winning purely by getting more 'lottery tickets' or more friends helping to refresh a site to buy a doll for you. Look at it this way. When you buy lottery tickets, you can buy as many as you like to increase chances of you winning. In this case, if people put more applications in for the one friend, it runs along the same concept. You might not be buying a ticket or buying a doll for yourself in the end, but you're still doing what the company wants...which is to get your attention and sell more stuff.

      Just to add another two cents in (and it's nothing against this debate raised because I know it's an issue others are thinking about anyway), I feel that the moral issue of right or wrong gets too much contemplation sometimes and the business aspect involved are often forgotten altogether.

      To Bunnydots, I think it's human nature that we try to even the score a bit if the game is skewed and give ourselves a better winning edge. However, I know a lot of people who would hold onto their principles (whatever they might be) rather than increase their chances of winning. Whether I think that's admirable or idiotic depends on the situation at hand. ^_~
       
    19. Firstly, Junkets, this debate topic IS more than likely because people are going bonkers in the Bermann thread, so I think basing our position off it is more than salient. I mean, we can talk about Volks, Luts, and Anu in recent memory...and the positions of people on these releases are different, IMO hypocritical, and noteworthy.

      On to the questions.

      1. Is this right or wrong? Why?

      Not necessarily wrong.

      2. Would it be wrong to do if the person was a stranger and/or was paying you to do it, but OK to do because it is a friend and you care about them? Does it matter how close the friend is (i.e. a family member or super close friend, rather than just somebody you know more distantly off a forum and are a little friendly with)?

      Yep. Friends who know how badly you want that doll, and are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, not for profit. I think that a stranger paying you to do it smacks of scalping. It doesn't really matter how "distant" the friend is...if you want to do this for them, that's your business.

      3. Does the type of contest and the way it is run matter? For example, is it OK to do this in a lottery but not in an essay contest?

      Aha, Bermann rears his head. I say that it's OK to do it no matter what kind of contest it is, but many would disagree.

      4. Does the contest being perceived as somehow vague or inherently unfair make a difference? For example, if lots of scalpers often win, does it make it more OK for you to try to get a doll on behalf of someone who really is going to love it and not just turn around and sell it?

      Not to me. I would help a friend get a limited that they were absolutely pining for, regardless of circumstance.

      5. Do you think this really cuts into the chances of people who just submit the one entry for themselves?

      I do, but to quote Labyrinth, "Life isn't fair. But that's the way it is." If you really want the limited badly enough, you will find a way to get it, be it having your friends enter, paying unholy scalpers' prices, or whatever you end up doing. Those who want the doll badly enough will get it, period.
       
    20. Well, if you'd read my post, I did not say that the Bermann release could not be mentioned. I said that this thread should not be used purely as a vehicle to discuss discontent with that particular release. Thank you.

      On with the debate!