1. It has come to the attention of forum staff that Dollshe Craft has ceased communications with dealers and customers, has failed to provide promised refunds for the excessive waits, and now has wait times surpassing 5 years in some cases. Forum staff are also concerned as there are claims being put forth that Dollshe plans to close down their doll making company. Due to the instability of the company, the lack of communication, the lack of promised refunds, and the wait times now surpassing 5 years, we strongly urge members to research the current state of this company very carefully and thoroughly before deciding to place an order. For more information please see the Dollshe waiting room. Do not assume this cannot happen to you or that your order will be different.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dollshe Craft and all dolls created by Dollshe, including any dolls created under his new or future companies, including Club Coco BJD are now banned from Den of Angels. Dollshe and the sculptor may not advertise his products on this forum. Sales may not be discussed, no news threads may be posted regarding new releases. This ban does not impact any dolls by Dollshe ordered by November 8, 2023. Any dolls ordered after November 8, 2023, regardless of the date the sculpt was released, are banned from this forum as are any dolls released under his new or future companies including but not limited to Club Coco BJD. This ban does not apply to other company dolls cast by Dollshe as part of a casting agreement between him and the actual sculpt or company and those dolls may still be discussed on the forum. Please come to Ask the Moderators if you have any questions.
    Dismiss Notice

Homage Dolls - One company's no-no is another's fortune?

Dec 21, 2010

    1. I think it is hypocrisy until I see the same people who were raising up the stink about those other homage dolls do the same for this doll. There are some who fessed up to the double standards in the Idealian discussion but not many. Silence is just a way of letting Soom slide with this homage doll because they are Soom.

      I don't think it's fashion so much as people getting sick of the double-standards. Volks gets a free ticket because they do deals with the companies holding the copyright et al but other companies shouldn't since they don't go that way based on the pulled dolls. Unless Soom has a deal with the creator of D or Yoshitaka Amano, I don't think they should be able to sell a doll by using the image of D, just the same as RD, AS and NobilityDoll couldn't sell due to their homage.
       
    2. I'm sorry, but that's outright bunk. You assume that anyone who doesn't come to raise a stink and try to cause drama approves? That's... seriously. Think about that for a second.

      Sorry, didn't see any. Links?

      Again, what double standards -- aside from the one that you are assuming exists just because people aren't rallying up to bang the same gong? You know, people who might be off doing holiday things at this time of year and not even paying any attention to DoA? People who don't follow or patently ignore the Soom threads? People who cared about Twilight but don't give a hoot about D? You are choosing to ignore a lot of very real factors here, enough blatantly obvious ones that I have to wonder if the person with the double standard isn't the people not posting, but you.

      Well, since I've bought art books with images of D since the 80s... Amano's art style has changed and there have been a lot of looks for him. I still maintain that my Sabik's head sculpt looks more like them than this sculpt does. The body type is also more accurate. They're also not using the name -- which actually is legally relevant, whether you like it or not. Is the allusion there? Absolutely. Blatantly, even. But there's still a difference -- and a very important one -- between even a blatant allusion and something flat out marketed as D merchandise.
       
    3. Hmm interesting... :) I myself don't know of any cases of pulled dolls caused by the general public, though that's probably my own ignorance. I had always thought that the process did involve alerting the artist and then they'd deal with it O_o;;..

      What if the artist is incredibly difficult to get a hold of?

      8Y Personally, I feel it is more of a feedback from the consumers than arrogance. If customers don't want 'inspired' dolls, they'll say they don't like it. I don't really think it is entirely on the customers' demeanors on which the decision to pull a doll rides. That alone is just the feedback. I myself have not seen any death threats [maybe again my own ignorance] about the sources of inspiration.

      But the company also has a decision, to pull or not pull the doll. I mean, of course a company will try to protect its reputation and seek to appease their customers' requirements for products; that's only natural. But they don't HAVE to. Forgive me as I'm not incredibly up to date with things, but I think a lot of things 'inspired' are still selling...? Dollmore still has many inspired items; they don't seem to care.
       
    4. I think the reason that RD, AS, and ND pulled there dolls is because enough of their fans said they didn't like it on the Q&A boards. And money talks. The last thing companies want to do is alienate their customers, and future buyers. It seems like most of Soom's fans aren't bothered by such things to this extent. And I'm willing to bet that most of these people also weren't any of the ones hounding the other companies or even making comments on the matter.
       
    5. I personally don't think it's a big deal. How many Ciel Phantomhive outfits were for sale after Kuroshitsuji came out? I know we talked about it, but I don't think anybody tried to drive them out or anything. I don't like it, I find it uncreative, but in most cases I think the dolls aren't close enough to get upset over. However, I think the Grell doll comes off as worse because the design is so striking and it's a newer series. They nearly match his design exactly. I don't know. =_= I like the cosplay-esque outfits in a way, but I don't think they should be so close. As for faceups and molds and such, that really skirts the line. Again, it depends on how close we are to a complete rip-off. Inspired by something and copied from are two different things.
       
    6. Laelen, I was referring/responding to the following (italicized) portion's of candy_coated's post:

      "To be fair, I hope they pull this guy off sales for the same reason the other dolls who were pulled. I didn't buy any of the pulled dolls so that's not the reason for my hoping, it's the hypocrisy of the fanbase reaction that makes me sick. But since it's Soom and it's a new (shiny) type of doll (Idealians are bigger aren't they?), I doubt people will throw enough of a fit for Soom to take him off."

      (My italics.)
       
    7. About people saying that other doll companies being blatant copies, just like someone pointed out, Wolfman looks nothing like Jacob and if you ignore the name and hair for Edward Moon, you can also say he looks nothing like Robert Pattison. ND even sculpted elf ears for Edward Moon so he wouldn't be 100%. Cullen doesn't have elf ears in case you didn't notice. Frankly, it was the name that set off alarm bells in certain people.
       
    8. Ah. ^^; Thanks hymn. That clears things up a little. In which case, I have to wonder at the deliberate intention to have something pulled. =u=;;.. i mean..It's one thing to say [general] you don't like it...and to have enough of those that a company decides to pull.

      It's another entirely to go in beating the war drum and hoping that the company will fold on the issue.

      To which, I do agree that the artist should hold most sway, and that customers should not be able to FORCE a company to pull an item. However, I do think that if the decision is of the company's own initiative in reply to feedback, that is ok. 8S I hope I'm coherent..
       
    9. This, many times over.

      Viacom is very, very litigious -- and they're one of the companies that will threaten legal action whether they really have grounds they'd really win on the merits of their case or not, and most people would rather just stop doing whatever than go bankrupt defending themselves. It's worth keeping that in mind when considering whether it was 'right' that this stuff got pulled -- there sure wasn't time for a court case to decide that issue.
       

    10. Agreed. If Soom decides to pull the doll because of customer feedback then that's their decision, they shouldn't HAVE to pull the doll just because other companies decided to after hearing what others had to say. That's like saying I should stop dressing a certain way because others don't like it and said as much to someone else who happens to dress like me, and they stopped.
       
    11. I'm certain that Soom won't pull the doll off their website. They are probably confident enough with their legal rights that they can get away with it. Hell, since they are big enough, they could probably afford the lawyers to help them deal with with any disputes that might come their way. Because they are so popular they are still gonna sell dolls no matter what even if they release a couple of questionable dolls.

      But with smaller companies like Ringdoll and Nobility Doll that are probably struggling to get through they don't want to take the chance of a possibly getting sued. It's sad certainly.
       
    12. Honestly I am lost here. You make it sound like Soom is this big corporation that can afford big lawyers etc...I seriously doubt that casting dolls is turning them into a big enough company to absorb big law suits.

      In the end I would prefer that none of the doll companies would copy the work of other artists.
       
    13. Who's to say they can't afford lawyers? And you can't deny they are currently the hottest selling company right now with their fantasy dolls that other companies are following suit by releasing their own fantasy line.
       
    14. No I'm calling out the people who specifically took part in the debate/debacle concerning AS, RD etc and their homage dolls, not everyone who's quiet. I'm talking about those specific people who aggressively protested against those homage. I'd like to see them jump into this one as well since I see this Idealian as a complete homage DESPITE me not knowing specifically Vampire Hunter D.

      Sorry it was bad reading on my part so ignore my comment. However, what I read wrong does allude to what I'm irked about concerning the reactions to homage dolls.
      http://www.denofangels.com/forums/s...eron-Dhampir&p=7248564&viewfull=1#post7248564


      What double-standards would I have? I have no problem with homage dolls themselves, I think cosplay is cool in both dolls and people. It's the reactions towards different homage dolls/companies that I don't understand. Even if they don't follow _______ company, people who're up and arms about homage dolls should also be offended by this doll. Even people who're not into AS or RD were in the respective threads ranting about the homage dolls. The holidays would mean less people on DoA but I'm pretty sure at least one of the people who were against the other homage dolls would be online on DoA. :\

      How is there a difference? Both are using the marketability/popularity of an existing artwork/character. Yes D is pretty old, but the fanbase is still there for marketing, especially in Japan and probably in South Korea. I don't know personally about the NobilityDoll one but the Judges alluded to Grell without being 100% true to the character's costume and using the character's name and yet that raised a huge outcry. The sneak peek of Dhamphir looks like D, feels like D and it has been, so far, met with praise. The only difference I feel right now might be how old D is (thus more obscure) compared to Kuroshitsuji but the use the fanbase still applies.
       
    15. maybe i'm in the minority, but i don't see "homage" dolls as a problem. it would be different i think if the artist was opposed, then yes, that would be disrespectful. i am an artist, and personally would be flattered if someone made a homage doll of my character. but i do understand that not everyone feels that way, and the artists feeling should be respected i think.

      i have to agree with this, totally.
      v v v

       
    16. I really don't like it when companies try to sell a doll created in the image of a character without asking permission from the original artist. It isn't "heavily inspired by," it's "blatantly ripped off."

      The issue of homage really depends on who, if anyone, is profiting. Dressing a generic sculpt as your favorite character is homage. A company creating a doll in the image of a character and selling it as that character (this IS what they're doing if the promotion pics are obviously showing it to be the character in question) is not homage. The word implies some sort of respect, which is clearly absent if a company is willing to rip off someone else's character for a profit.
       
    17. You're using 'guilty until proven innocent' logic to 'prove' an assertion that things are different because it's a 'popular' company.

      Also, wait... does that last sentence there translate to 'I know they're guilty of copying even though I don't really know what they're copying'? Because it sure looks like it. That doesn't even make sense.

      Ignoring the people speaking up counter to your claims and claiming that the people who haven't said anything prove them. Then again, that might not be a double standard, and instead just a complete denial of reality and the desperate claim that all the people who haven't shown up yet prove it by... not showing up. Do you really not see the flaw in this logic? People are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves. Assigning motives to the reasons they have not is supremely arrogant behavior. Assuming their motives for not speaking out (potentially just 'yet') is just... well, it's less than smart. Trying to use that to support what you assume to be true is like trying to build a house on sand.

      I'm giving you plenty of entirely valid reasons people may not be jumping in. Some people really only give a hoot if it is their preferred fandom being stepped on, but will happily wrap themselves in sanctimonious ranting, claiming high moral this or that, then promptly stop caring when it happens in someone else's fandom. Some will figure 'let that collection of fans fight their battle'. This went out, what... a little over 24 hours ago? I love how the fact that there isn't an angry mob pounding down their door already means 'oh no one cares because it's Soom'. It took the NobilityDoll thread more than a few days, and it rolled along through it's craziness for a lot longer than a day or so. Yep, some of those people will speak up! I gather that some of them have. It doesn't happen overnight -- literally.

      You make the claim that Soom is using the image of D for profit. I point out that that particular image has taken a few twists and turns -- and that they have an existing sculpt that already has a very strong resemblance, stronger (in my opinion, as a collector of D and Amano artwork since the 1980s) than the current one, so really there are a few images out there with some commonalities among them. Does that make both sculpts 'wrong'? One is more accurate to the art. One has the language 'vampire hunter' and 'dhampir' attached along with a hat that takes the commonalities of the images more than the facial resemblance. We still don't know one way or the other about the hand, which is a very defining feature. I'd even be uncomfortable with them if they went that far. The one with the outcry is the one with the allusions there -- not necessarily the facial sculpt resemblance. Are you starting to see some of the muddying of the waters here, and how many ways this can go?

      It's obviously an allusion. I mean really now: duh. Everyone has managed to figure this out. If they called it D, they'd be in it up to their necks, legally. No question about that. Why? The character is probably protected under law that way and the franchise is associated with that name as well as the likeness -- and yes, legally, that makes a difference. Seriously, have you never seen the sort of products I mentioned in an earlier post? 'Arachnid Lad' action figures and similar things cropping up when Spiderman movies come out? There were some great links to products like this in the Nobilitydoll thread; go to any toy store and you will see plenty of them.

      I rest my case, your honor. :roll: This is yet more outrage for the sake of being outraged. And this is how most things like this go -- people who don't 'know specifically' 'feel like' they do -- just in terms of law. That's a problem.
       
    18. Which, polyhumnia, is more or less what we've seen happen.
      To get away from addressing a single issue, I'd rather address the point here though...
      Personally, while I think the Dhampir is absolutely gorgeous... I think that I'm going to be contacting the copyright holders of Vampire Hunter D. It's a surprisingly easy matter to get in touch with lawyers like this - I'm the guy who got in touch with and got a response from JK Rowling's lawyers when someone decided to file a DMCA against me for "sporking" their bad HP fanfiction.
      In my mind, while I want it... I also wanted the Judge, and the Osiris, and honestly I can't accept the idea of one company profiting when people threw a fit over the others.
      My issue is that none of the people who threw tantrums over these other company's doll homages are throwing a fit over Soom... and why? Let's face it, we all love Soom. Soom is an amazing company, they've done amazing dolls... and we're always loathe to discredit or criticize the things that we love.
      But Ringdoll's Judge was an outfit, an accessory, and a repaint of an existing head, and the outcry was enough to get them to pull it. I'm sorry, but that indicates to me that it's a hell of a lot more than 10 or 20 emails to the company... The outcry was significant enough for them to decide it was going to have a definite impact to their business, and I can't agree with another company getting away with it simply because they're bigger and more popular or prolific or loved or whatever have you.
      So while I personally don't see it being a big issue (due to a very basic understanding of doujin and whatnot in Japan... VERY basic, mind you), I see an issue in no stink being raised.
      I'd rather all doll companies be held to the same standard. And while people can go round for round trying to insist this or that... google Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust and there's the face for you. Look at an assorted number of Yoshitaka Amano illustrations and you can clearly see the inspiration for the outfit. And for those of you on this forum (albeit NOT necessarily in this thread!), it's rather easy to catch your bias when you insist you have no idea who this or that character is, but link to liking the pairing on your CrunchyRoll account that you link to your DeviantArt account that you link to your DOA page :-/
      Look, we're all biased. Some of us around here just want to try to move beyond that bias and hopefully into a better doll market. If we're coming down on one company with protests, we're coming down on them all, or it has to stop.
      If you feel strongly about wanting the Dhampir to come out, write Soom in support then. And write Ringdoll, and IOS, and AS and tell them that you feel they should be able to do their tribute dolls as well. Or don't, and enjoy wallowing in your hypocrisy.
      Me, as I said, I'll be spending a few hours both brushing up on my written Japanese and searching for whichever lawfirm ultimately represents Kikuguchi-sama.
       
    19. So I have to ask...dose any one have a pic of what the ringdoll doll looked like? Is it Te same one they have in the outfit?
       
    20. Or, to roughly translate: "I wanted this other thing, and people whined, and I couldn't get it. So before I even see the complete doll to know how close it is, I am going to try to get this other company in legal hot water."