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Homage Dolls - One company's no-no is another's fortune?

Dec 21, 2010

    1. If you want to overly simplify and twist my words, certainly, go right ahead.
      However, if you're willing to get off your ranty high horse, it could also translate to this:
      "I've had some time to pull my head out of my arse and really evaluate my ethics on the situation, and thus have decided to go the route of letting the professionals decide if this is indeed an issue that needs to be addressed by them."
      In the case of JK Rowling's lawfirm and Meyshi, they took a look into the issue and took the few necessary steps that needed taking - i.e. a cease and desist letter, nothing more. Were Kikuguchi-sama's lawfirm to deem it necessary to do so, the buck would stop there. Soom would be out a single sample doll, sample outfit, and some time. Would that suck for them, certainly.
      However, in your pessimism, you ignore something positive that could come out of this.
      In the case of JK Rowling's lawyers coming down on Meyshi, all that they came down on was this girl more or less claiming ownership via DMCA, not the fanfiction/tribute itself. It more or less stated to the fanfic/tribute community that so long as ownership wasn't claimed, homages and tribute of that form were indeed allowed.
      Now, should Kikuguchi-sama's lawfirm take a look at this issue, and deem it beneath their notice, that certainly gives a bit of a greenlight to homages from future companies. It should also remove most of the userbase rage.
      Moreover, you ignore the fact that I'm more or less potentially shooting myself in the foot over THIS doll too, Surreality, to try and score your tiny points against me. Honestly, if you're so certain you're in the right here... why are you trying to slam me for doing something that could just settle the argument?
       
    2. Actually, my point here is that you aren't even bothering to see the complete doll before going for the throat -- a point that, while tiny, is one you seem to have missed or deemed irrelevant. Lawsuits, on the other hand, aren't, and lawyers are in the business of making lots of them. I don't know if it was you or someone else that mentioned knowing the translator -- why not contact him/her, and get in touch with the author? As you yourself have mentioned, these things can work out very well -- they actually tend to work out best artist to artist, creative person to creative person. Going straight to the lawyers, especially before all the information is in hand, is not necessarily the healthiest method, since, like I mentioned, laywers are also looking out for their own interests. See what I'm saying?

      quick edit: zipping out to ooooh and ahhh over the eclipse. Hopefully this post made sense enough that the fact that I'm not trying to be all 'graahhhhhh!grrrr... ' came across, but if not... back after creepy red eclipse solstice fullmoon.
       
    3. Copyright doesn't Quite work that way... there is an implied copyright from the moment something is created. it has SOME protection by way of International Laws, particularly things like the Berne convention. (sorry once upon a time I was a Graphic Design student...a Looong time ago)

      HOWEVER, when we're talking about shifting something from say a Manga character to a Doll that might look very very similar but isn't a direct reference to the original work... then things start get get fuzzier. Is it an intentional copy? is it a "character type" or a "trope" that might have come up without the influence of the prior work? All things that make things more complicated. There's sometimes also a gap in whether or not a 3D item, like a piece of jewlery or a fashion item is copyrightable as it exists or if it's a patent problem... or "too much of everything in the field is limited by it's function, which determines/limits the range of it's forms..."

      Now if there IS a direct reference, there might still be the hurdle of a copyright that hasn't been adequately REGISTERED, and that's a fresh can of beans. If the artist/publisher of the original work doesn't have a clearly registered copyright, it can be a problem in defending their right to their own works/ideas. And i f the artist/publisher isn't wealthy, they can't drag it into court... also the issue of ...well CHINA. China's legal system hasn't quite caught up with the idea of intellectual property, or perhaps just can't see it the same way as everyone else... Simply, if a Chinese company is making exact knock offs of you item you may just be SOL... it's not considered an important issue.

      Fan subs (manga/anime) and fan art can also be a whole different category, but it depends in part on how the source of the material perceives the role of fan art. Some sources are ready to send a cease and desist order for something that even smells remotely like something that the original should be cashing in on.... other sources are "oh sure, you can make copies of this prop, as many as you like... here's a PATTERN even... Just don't SELL them." and others are "Oh cool! you are selling copies of *item from story/tv show* can I buy one from you..."

      It's kinda mind boggling if one is a huge fan of something, and trying to equip/encourage other fans with something made out of love for the source material.

      On the one hand, do we necessarily even KNOW if company A IS copying publisher/artist B intentionally, or sometimes what seems like copying CAN be co-incidence (this has happened sometimes in "Origami fandom" where artists on different sides of the planet have sent in IDENTICAL new patterns at the same exact time...)

      or sometimes the copying can be unconscious, (ie: saw the anime years ago, totally forgot about it, but the character type has invaded the artist's ideas... )

      It's even possible sometimes, that perhaps the apparent copy/homage has been produced with the permission/blessing of the source artist. Even if there isn't a huge announcement that permission was requested and given. (I've kinda been wondering about "minimees" don't the celebs being copied have any control over how their image is used in this sort of instance?)

      ____

      OK, further thoughts... many companies, artists-literary sources address these sorts of things in broad range of possible approaches.

      Rowling and Disney sometimes get a little too happy about sending out the Cease & Desist letters... (a red and yellow knit scarf tagged "school scarf" can get you a cease & desist letter from the H.P. people... even if YOUR school colors actually ARE red and yellow.)

      If the fan is offended by what they think is a "copy" perhaps the best approach is to send a letter or email to the source material artist/publisher etc with a link to what they feel is an unwarranted copy... and let the OWNER of the material decide if it's a problem worth perusing. In many cases, artists look out for each other, and to get a friend's piece down from a site where it's used without permission... USUALLY takes an email from the friend who made the art TO the site/site host about the copyright issue. It takes a 1st hand complaint to fix the problem, not non-owners of the work, even en mass, to fix the problem.
       
    4. At this hour, my dear, it is 11:20pm for me. As I work as a Systems Analyst, I'd think that it would be quite obvious that I'm not going to get this done tonight, but rather tomorrow, after the pics are slated to be released.
      redacted statements to be slightly less rawr
      Moreover, while I truly indeed to respect Kikuguchi-sama, the closest I or the translator would get to him is a publicist... who would forward everything to the legal department :-/ If a man that well-known had to handle everything himself, he'd never get anything done.

      Edit: It's late, I'm tired and very angry after a night of dealing with a drunken vagrant in my foyer threatening me all night. I'll continue this in the am.
       
    5. a letter to the artist/publisher saying "Wow, this is beautifully done, but are you OK with this? Did you give permission for this? I really need to know, because I'm a huge fan of yours, and I don't want to purchase something that rips you off." Is 1) perfectly appropriate 2)hopefully will get to the right person, 3) the most effective way to fix a problem if it's there, or to find out that it really never was a problem.

      Heck If *I* were the artist getting that note, I WOULD follow up on it, AND either way, get back to the fans (though possibly if a lot were writing it would all be the same note, or possibly just some kind of press release) saying "Wow, thank you for caring so much... this is fine I gave Mr * permission a few years ago and they're just now doing it. Go ahead, buy the doll if you want it, I get ROyalties " Or "Wow thank you for caring, the lawyers are on it... This doll was NOT made with my permission."
       
    6. Unfortunately, your challenge can't be answered, as many of the comments in the new doll thread for Judges/Grell were removed. So we can't compare who is whinging about what.

      For me the issue is consistency. I certainly don't want to see the new Soom IDealian pulled. (In my mind, the more IDealians the better.) But it would be good for people to be as tolerant of all companies as they are of some.

      Now, before you (that's a general "you," btw) accuse me of some anti-Soom bias, notice that my avatar is of the first IDealian. And I'd own the second if I hadn't foolishly hesitated. And I'd be buying this guy, too if he were tan. Noticing that attitudes seem to differ towards companies doesn't make me biased against Soom, nor does it make me a hater. It just means I've drawn a conclusion based on the evidence available to me. And what I've noticed is that the doll community (not talking about individuals here, nor do I believe bjd owners comprise some monolith-- rather, I'm noticing trends in general) seems very conservative about companies-- and even new product lines. The longer a company has been around, the more credibility it has. This is even true of new lines. How many people bought the first IDealian, for instance?

      So it seems to me that some companies do get a pass for crossing a line while others are penalized. And that bugs me. If we tolerate one we should tolerate them all.
       
    7. Soom is certainly one of the bigger players in a very tiny world of BJD's. However, I don't think they deserve to be painted as the "big company" throwing around their weight while the small players toil the hard way. BJD companies are not huge. Also being copied does not make you rich and all powerful. It makes you influential.
       
    8. I seriously can't be the only person who also thought of Van Helsing right? http://mlight.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c2c8b53ef01157152f8fb970b-300wi

      Right now I don't have a strong opinion either way, to me it seems like it would be fans of the company and/or the character that would be making a fuss. If someone messages Soom and/or the original artist, worded politely then to me thats fine. What I don't think is fine is the need to tell Soom to take down the doll and require everyone who disliked any of the other dolls to dislike this one. I believe it is for the artist to decide whether to pursue action or not and for the Company to decide whether to keep the doll for sale or not.

      For me, Judges was too close. There aren't many red tuxedo wearing shinagamis running around with glasses, a chainsaw as prop with a maniac grin and long red hair. But Vampire Hunters wearing hats and have long dark hair... there are a few more than just Vampire Hunter D.

      I suppose Soom could always do what Angel-Studio did a few years back, bring back the doll but not the whole 'look.' Angel-studio named their dolls Gabriel and Lucifer, posed, dressed, faceupped exactly like Yuki Kaori's Angel Sanctuary' pictures. They brought the dolls back in European couture and thats fine. If they can have Mix-black, Blue & Red who have similar style, font, display to kuroshitsuji's Ciel Phantomhive and Sebastian Michaelis but with alterations then I personally think if Soom's doll is just similar it would be fine.
       
    9. I've never seen a commercially produced anime or mange without a copyright notice, and as Vampire Hunter D has been licensed in other countries it's obviously one of those copyrighted properties. Foreign companies had to buy the rights to bring it over.

      This one would probably squeak through legally in terms of copyright laws, as those obviously-based-on type toys do. However, this one for me is really blatant. Homage is only cool in a creative property when it's part of something that is your own idea, IMHO. I did not think the "homage" in Independence Day of taking V's signature image of the mother ship over the White House, for example, was cool. It felt like stealing. This dhampir - he's even a dhampir, like D, and how often is that word actually thrown around even in vampire stuff - is just too close for me. A fan taking a doll and putting something like this together I would admire, but a company selling it for profit turns me off. It turns me off from any company.

      That said, I'm not seeing a whole lot of "it's okay because it's Soom" sentiment. Silence from certain people may very well just because they haven't seen the thread, or they haven't heard of this new iDealian, etc.
       
    10. Yeah, this part is exactly what I'm not understanding-- people keep whining that it's not fair that Soom "isn't catching any flak for it" because they're popular. And yet, I AM hearing tons of flak getting thrown at Soom. Therefore, I see no "double standard" at work here. How exactly are Soom "getting a pass"?

      People who don't like homage dolls are throwing flak; people who are OK with homage dolls are not throwing flak. Same as has been happening every time one of these companies does this same thing.

      (In another few days' time I'm sure we'll hear whether Soom will pull Mr Dhampir off the shelves or not.)
       
    11. I guess I'm a little confused. There seems to be some double standards going on. If you're OK with the Grell and D dolls, are you OK with one doll company mimicking another's style/sculpts? For example, if Company B starting making Cerberus Project homage dolls would that be OK? I've seen a few dust ups that suggests otherwise (the most recent one being B&G's Nailo). So if you are against "sculpt homages", why would you be against celebrity/anime homages?

      I'm also a little confused about the doll companies themselves. If they're so keen on making an homage doll, why not release a statement about it? "Hey guys! We're gonna be selling a Grell doll soon. We've got the full support of the Black Butler people. They're really excited about it!" Seems like a win/win situation: everybody gets a doll they love, and the company doesn't get flack for "stealing" somebody else's work.

      I'm not sure how international copyright law works, but I'm all for alerting the original artist and letting them know. It's their creation. They have that right.
       
    12. This is pretty much where I am, too.

      I don't go with the 'let's get a mob with torches and pitchforks' thinking based purely on the fact that there have been some before. Or that people are giving Soom a special pass (or not) simply because the mob isn't there.

      Shrieking fan mob vs. small company is not fun. I know I had the joy and delight of dealing with one that was demanding I make something I have never produced, cannot produce, and is wholly outside of my skillset to produce purely because they wanted it and liked the things I did produce -- but no matter how irrational this demand, I got tarred brutally for a year or more over it, and have taken a hit to this day for replying with an entirely ethical-beyond-reproach 'I can't do that'. I literally was flat out called a laundry list of names I can't repeat here (and aren't accurate) for not dropping several thousand dollars in resources and spending over a year in training to deliver what this particular subset of customers wanted, and screw my ability to keep a roof over my head doing what I'd (legally/ethically/wholly originally) been doing all along -- I didn't really need a roof over my head if I loved my art, did I? (Note: it had nothing to do with issues even vaguely like this one outside the conflict with a random mob mentality.)

      I see the same trends and tendencies at times from portions of the community here at times, and it is quite worrying. The pitchfork mob, as a general rule, is not interested in actual right, wrong, legal, ethical, or any of the rest of it -- it wants to punish and it wants its way, and it wants to cloak itself in self-righteousness while doing it. If you look through the debate forum here, there's even an example of 'these promo images are styled after a manga, it's complete theft!' -- and the garments advertised are similar, but not the same. People who know or have studied costume history know the manga isn't the only source of the style, but you can watch as the newest outrage junkie piles right in to ignore that in favor of photo staging over, and over, and over. And guess who has the loudest voices?
       
    13. I'm not condoning the behavior (and I agree with you). However, I think people get so riled up because 1) it's a series or character dear to them and 2) it toes the art theft line. Nothing generates rage like those two things. The intentions are pure, but we all know about those and the road to hell. ;)

      Seriously. If this bothers you (general "you") so much contact the original artist and doll company about it. Be polite and be factual. And always remember you can vote with your wallet.
       
    14. If the doll company went to the original creator, they would have to pay licensing fees. And the doll really would have to be named after the character then, I would think. Really, just licensing and releasing a resin version would be a tidier thing to do, (and in this case would be especially cool because they could do the hand, they could do his weapon . . . omg his horse . . . *wipes fangirl drool off her chin) but I doubt any of the Korean companies could really afford to do it. When Volks does it, it's of properties from their own country, the legal negotiations are in their own language, and the laws are all domestic, keeping it more straightforward.

      Pitch-fork wielding mobs seem to show up over some odd issues. Soom gets lots of flak just for releasing/not releasing/re-releasing. Although how much of the commentary that happens here ever gets over to them, I really don't know - I'm just thinking of the comment boards on their site, which by passing glance can get pretty crazy.

      Homage over theft is a really tricky issue. I tend to go with my gut on it. This one crosses the line for me, but my pitchfork will stay safely stowed.
       
    15. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes to all of the above.
       
    16. There's the issues of likeness, though. While everyone says, "ZOMG, that looks JUST LIKE... " it doesn't really. There are actually likeness guides and standards for officially licensed products. A friend of the roomie's, for instance, worked with D.C. Comics on the official licensed merchandise style guides for the Batman animated series. The Tonner fashion dolls based on Twilight? All the actors depicted had to sign off on and approve their likenesses for the series of dolls -- so if they didn't like it, it meant more revamps for the artists. The ones from NobilityDoll? Bwahahaha. As much as many people here were screaming about them being dead ringers for the actors -- which they really weren't -- they never would have passed that sort of review.

      Not all companies are as strict about these things, and some will say, 'I'd love to see your take on it, run with it, just show us what you've got before you go live for approvals!' -- but not all of them. In a way, that strips the ability to have 'the (insert other artist's style) version', which is what a lot of these things really are. The Soom D-inspired doll doesn't look the same as the official sculpture I've seen in any way -- and if it was official, it might have to.

      See what I mean about this stuff being way more complicated than a lot of people think at first glance? And this is wholly separate from the licensing fees -- those licenses don't just come with fees, but with a lot of other baggage that may or may not be beneficial.

      Soom gets a lot of intensely rude people with shocking frequency. In a way, it makes me wonder if they won't have a thicker skin over this than most other companies might.

      I know I'll be a uncomfortable if they went so far as to do the hand, for instance. That's one of the undeniably defining traits of that specific character -- and I would feel 'not ok' with that being replicated.
       
    17. I never need to bother posting in debates, because you just steal the words outta my brain.
       
    18. I don't think it's at all fair, this whole situation, but I am definitely not going to set out to make sure it IS treated fairly. I know that sounds horrible but, I believe what happened regarding the whole RD Judge doll was overreacting at its worst. Because of that, I don't WANT to see it happen to another doll just because it happened to others and I don't want a repeat of customers overreacting and making assumptions. Had all the dolls taken down over customer outcry been actually taken down because the owners of the idea/intellectual property/manga/copyright/etc had demanded them down, then I would agree that this one would have to go too. I look at it and see Vampire Hunter D, whether they had that in mind or not. I think a copyright case could be made but I, for one, don't think it should be taken down based on the assumption that no legal channels were followed and that it's this or that when we have no idea what they actually have the right to do or not do. It could be there are things about its entirety that make it legal enough to sell. And even if there isn't, I don't think it should be left up to us in the first place.

      Sorry! *hides*
       
    19. I have had no problem with any of the other dolls. I stick by the saying "good artists borrow, great artists steal"
      Soom took the idea of this character and put it into another art form, that is what I think of it
      also, people sell "fanart" all the time, customizing it just enough to be recognized but not cause a copyright issue. I feel this isn't very different.
       
    20. UGH I wrote out a long post to put up and it got lost -_-'

      So this one will be very to-the-point.

      None of the homage sculpts (with the exception of the Grell one which I only saw in passing once) would look anything like the character they're homaging if it wasn't for the styling. The Soom Idealian has very long hawkish features that is not new to the BJD world. The Nobility 'Edward' looked nothing like the Twilight dude to me, likewise on the 'Wolfman' one. However the styling, consisting of hair/clothing/accessories is what makes them copies/homages etc.

      I don't know if the idea of a homage comes first and then the doll is sculpted or if they sculpt the doll and then come up with the idea for the dolls 'theme'. In cases like these where there don't seem to be any special body parts, or fantasy bits it seems they maybe have the doll, need a promotional fullset and go from there. I don't know how involved the sculptors actually are in that process, so it seems unfair to me to jump down the sculptors/artists throat when for all we know they weren't involved in the styling.

      In which case, it seems a tad unfair that people mob and call for the doll to be brought down when a simple restyling will do.

      As for one company being able to do it and another company not, I feel the Nobility ones could have restyled and been released for reasons previously stated. I thought the Grell doll was too close to source material and should have been brought down. The face sculpt actually reflected the face of the character it was a 'homage' of. As for Soom, somewhat poor styling choices, but with different styling there'd be no issue from me.

      Edit: Just realized I tagged the Edward wolfman ones Ringdoll not Nobility.