Homage Dolls - One company's no-no is another's fortune?

I think he looks awfully like Gluino - facially, I mean.

 

I really have no desire to get mired in this debate. Really. But I just wanted to clarify here that Ringdoll did not produce a special doll to be Grell, or Grell-ish, or whatever you want to call it. Spencer was an existing sculpt of theirs already available as both a separate fullset and as a blank doll. It is my understanding that for their Judges line they wanted to make 'doujinshi' or cosplay dolls of their already-extant sculpts, only dressed up in ways reminiscent of characters they liked, to be available like that already styled if people wanted to get them that way. These were not dolls sculpted deliberately to be available only as a character homage, they were not produced only as the homage character (Grell). They were dressing up a doll they already had as a character the company designer liked, and making him available that way to their customers.

Whether or not that's legal or ethical or better or worse than anything else, I really don't want to get into. But it is a difference in the way these homage dolls are designed, planned, and presented, and I feel it should be pointed out. Spencer was not created to be Grell. He was dressed up like Grell. That might make a difference or it might not to some, ymmv.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. Now I don't have to.

 

I just want to put in that while Soom is doing creative things doll-wise, we already know that they are inspired by video games (Onyx-"Shaiya", it says on their page) also, I thought Monzo may have been inspired by WOW's Illidan Stormrage. I don't think it's a bad thing, I love the fantasy world inspired characters, but they do this homage/inspired by thing often. Couldn't you argue that most of their doll were this?

 

I second Cloudedmind. I was just about to say this because it definitely should be understood that Spencer came first, the company just was cosplaying him as Grell. Thank you!

 

Oh thank you I only saw it in passing to be honest. And I don't/didn't have history with Ringdoll when I saw it. I guess I'd lump it into the 'good idea, questionably styled.' I thought that the teeth had been sculpted in which seemed a bit iffy to me.

I also noticed I made the Edward Moon and Wolfman stuff Ringdoll... when it was Nobility *sigh* Teach me to type without having my coffee first. ^_^ *le sigh*

But I guess, my own opinion still stand. Unless the doll is sculpted to close to source material (or the thing that inspired it) there really is not 'artist' issue with me. Just the questionable styling for marketing purposes.

 

Sure, no problem! Honestly, there are so many companies now it's impossible for any one person to keep track of everything every company is doing, which is the power of our community as a whole. I only knew about Spencer being an extant doll because Ringdoll is one of the companies I watch. And I know nothing about Black Butler, and didn't even know he was meant to resemble one of the characters until I saw someone else say so. I just thought they were doing a more zany fullset option for Spencer. ^_^;

 

Fourthing the thanks on this. Spencer has been on my wishlist since he first came out, and it REALLY confused me when they pulled the Grell set. @_@

 

Im personally not into homage dolls, its something that would put me off buying a doll if it was cosplaying or based on a popular character, because it would instantly limit my imagination. I would be trying to mod it away from looking anything like Vampire Hunter D just so people wouldnt relate it back to how it was promoted.
Imagine if you didnt know who Vampire Hunter D was and bought this Soom doll and you thought it was really original looking only for other people to always say to you hey it looks like Vampire Hunter D! And then you find out who Vampire Hunter D is and youre like, dammit!!
Its fine if you like Vampire Hunter D and want him as a doll but I find dressing your new doll up as a popular character on your site to sell them really unoriginal and it excludes people who arent fans or knowledgeable about that character.
I found the Twilight dolls really really tacky, as though they had to stoop to a really popular culture reference so people would take interest in the dolls.
So in my opinion it isnt attractive *to me* for companies to do this.

 

Alright, I've a question for you all:

If we are so offended by these dolls, which are created in the likeness of another character, then why are we not offended by the Minimee's that are created by DiM? They use many, MANY copyrighted designs, as in here http://www.dimdoll.com/shop/step1.php?number=337

Personally I would like to see that any BJD artist who is "copying" had permission to use the characters they use.

 

At first glance, I saw this, but in black:


Was that Vampire Hunter D?

But anyway, I really like the idea of dolls portraying characters of Anime and Real Life. It's so cool. But a lot of times, they don't look like what they're impersonating, to me.

 

... That looks more like Carmen Sandiego to me.

 

Thank you.

No, none of the "homage dolls" -- NONE of them -- were identical in every detail to the characters, and yet they were perfectly recognizable as being based on the characters. Frankly I think you'd have to be blind or self-blinded not to see this guy as a VHD homage doll, and again I turn to the image of the UNIQUE sword in Soom's promo shot -- unique in the actual meaning of the word, that is, "one of a kind." No other character, including Van Hellsing, carries a sword with that particular shape. It's Amano's D's sword.

So, all that having been said, it does come down to "what's good for the goose is good for the gander." They're either all ok, or they're all not, regardless of where they come from.

And yes, I agree that whether they are ok or not is a REALLY dicey issue to discuss... I just firmly believe that the response should be even-handedly applied across the board.

 

Yeah, they probably don't do it because it would be difficult and expensive. But on the flip side of that, just because it would be hard for Korean companies, as I said, doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't do it or shouldn't be obliged to do it.

As for likeness, seeing the two pics next to each other on the first page of this thread . . . that's really close, IMO. The structure of his face, the style of not only his clothes but his weapon, there's quite a lot of likeness there. But if you're going that close, I think there should be some credit, and preferably money going to the copyright holder. It's hard enough for artists of all walks to make money without people using their work for free.

And I do distinguish between Jane B. Fangrrl selling a couple of fanart paintings at a con to cover her hotel cost and art supplies, and an actual company.

But the actual topic of this thread is why is Soom getting away with it when others haven't, and I'm still not sure that Soom has gotten the get-out-of-jail-free card from the community. I think it's too early to tell, but I suspect some s is going to hit the f for Soom. Because for Soom, it so often seems to.

 

Aw hell, if I were an artist (and still a doll nut -what DO we call ourselves?) and got a request from a doll company for rights to use one of my characters, not only would I a) work out a deal, but b) demand one of the first dolls as part of my royalties.

gawd I'm SUCH a nerd.

 

There's already a discussion of that in a different thread. MNM project and homage dolls don't operate the same way -- one is a commission service that deals in very small runs, the other a finished doll made available to all who want one. So it is possible to take issue with one and not the other, or neither, or both -- it just depends on how you look at the situation. All of these things operate in a gray area which is why there isn't always a lot of agreement about what is and isn't ok.

 

Personally, none of those are "okay" by me. I think it's tacky and incredibly uncool from anyone, especially when it's so completely blatant. I thought the Ringdoll Grell doll was horrible. The only reason I didn't comment on the Soom Vampire Hunter D one was because I'm not familiar with Vampire Hunter D and though I thought it looked like a copy doll, I wasn't sure until my bff showed me comparison photos... last night at like 3am.

I see absolutely no problem with people emailing the companies and respectfully telling them they are not comfortable with the copy/"homage" doll(s) and asking them to please reconsider. As long as you're polite and don't go off the handle at them, I think that's a positive thing - it might discourage them from continuing the practice.

I have no problem with dolls "inspired by" whatever (or, obviously, when doll-owners "make their own" individual homage doll - it's the mass production of them that bothers me), but when you (the company) do such a blatant copy that even someone who has never seen Vampire Hunter D outside of a few pop culture references recognizes it as explicitly him? Or when you (again, the company, not any specific "you") set the photos specifically to emulate an anime image/sequence and deck the doll out with all the character's props and everything, like Ringdoll did with Grell/"Judges"? Yeah, not cool.

 

Hmm... perhaps it's just me, but while I can see the likeness to Vampire Hunter D, I also think the whole 'hat + long coat + long hair (of any color) + pretty face' look is rather popular, if not a bit generic almost ^^;

I'm completely fine with the new Soom doll and remain unconvinced that it's a blatant ripoff/homage/copy/etc of Vampire Hunter D unless he comes with D's creepy hand and other details are close/exact because, as I've said above, the general design just looks really generic to me (kind of makes me think of Hellsing actually, both the movie AND the anime, and Black Blood Brothers - sure the two Hellsing characters aren't pretty boys per se and Alucard in the Hellsing anime is a vampire, but we have the same long coat + hat + long hair combo going on ~_~ ).

As for the Ringdoll 'Grell' doll though? While I think it was a pretty awesome cosplay of the character, I can see why people were concerned about copy right infringement and other legal stuff. Sure the doll they used wasn't specifically sculpted with Grell in mind, but for the fact they more or less replicated every little detail of Grell's features (props, face up and all), it somehow makes it a little iffy. Honestly though, if Ringdoll had chose to keep the Judges doll and sell it, I wouldn't have minded much, I'd just be a little worried for Ringdoll in case they get sued in the long-run or something like that.

 

Now that tenshi_no_korin reminded me that Grell/Judges was the Spencer sculpt, this presents an interesting conundrum.

SOOM has made a completely different sculpt for their VHD homage doll. Ringdoll looked at a sculpt they were already selling, said "Hmm, this could be cosplayed as this character!" and created clothing and accessories for it.

Does this make a difference? And if so, does that then make clothing makers also in the wrong for their cosplay outfits? I know Dollmore has a few outfits that are pretty obviously based on various anime outfits. Are they equally "in the wrong"?

 

If the Hyperon sculpt looked notably different from any other doll in the Idealian line, I might think it an issue, but he's fully in line with their own style. In a different outfit, no one would raise a brow over it fitting in with their other sculpts, or likely consider it to look like any specific character en masse.