Homage Dolls - One company's no-no is another's fortune?

And I'll keep saying it. No other character carries a sword like the one shown in the background on Soom's promo page.

Yes, lots of characters have the other stuff going on but not that sword, and not the term Dhampir, which specifically means a vampire/human halfbreed. Hellsing's Alucard is a full vampire.

Nope, this is a plain a reference to Vampire Hunter D as there could be. The only thing that could be any more obvious would be if they put a blue jewel-doodad on the front of his cloak and a -- whatever he is -- in his left hand.

Oh, and yes, if you put him in a different outfit and didn't call him a Dhampir and didn't have him posing in front of the very specific sword, he can pass for another pretty pointy-eared boy, no problem. But that doesn't matter to the discussion at hand because THAT'S NOT THE CASE AT THIS TIME.

 

But most fan-made things are recreated in the artist's style. There are fanartists and doujinshi circles who do their best to recreate the original style, yes. I've seen some amazing Pokemon fanart done in that style (for OCs, mostly), but for the most part a fanartist/doujinshi artist is going to take the character and remake them in their own style. That Hyperon is in the IDealian style does not make him less of an homage-type doll.

 

It means that outside of the costume, he wouldn't be 'the character'. Stick that doll in the Pangen outfit/wig/faceup, would you still see the same thing? Absolutely not. We don't even know if they had the sculpt or the idea for the styling first, either.

I mean, nothin' for nothin', but nothing was said about Gluino in this regard and, well... http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/Alucard_Naruto/Castlevania.jpg -- even the outfit is close.

Edited to add a few more: http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/Raven6247/caption-558474-20090711053937.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/RightHandofDoom/alucardfigure.jpg

These look as close to Gluino as the Ringdoll Grell (thankfully there are still images in that thread) does to its source, or the D to its source, no? Someone had to notice -- but no screaming then.

 

I don't think there's that much difference between the two at all, they both boil down to a company making money from someone else' character designs, the number and the way they go about it -i.e. if they wait for the customers to ask for it or they do it off their own backs- makes little difference. If the full set 'cosplay' dolls where limited to say 10, would that make it any less infringement on someone else' ideas/copyright/intellectual property as opposed to 100? I don't think so. Maybe that's very black and white of me but that's the core of the issue here. Besides, if we're going to talk about numbers and availability, how many heads have DiM sculpted based on copyrighted characters? Even if those runs are only 10 heads each those numbers mount up pretty quickly and no doubt easily out strip the number of idealians Soom would probably sell during a month long order period so it's a very misleading argument to dismiss the comparison because Minimee's have small runs, yes the runs are small but there are a lot of them.

 

This.

 

I understand that, which makes me wonder if they'd axed the sword in favor of say a crossbow, and changed the color of his outfit, if people would still have had an issue with it. Because him being a Dhampir isn't what makes him VHD like to me. There are plenty of Dhampir characters out there, my favorite happens to be a woman.

 

Actually, there isn't necessarily a lot of any particular character, because it can be difficult to get enough people together to make it cost effective to order the heads. Not being readily available and marketed to the masses does make a difference. There are also limits to how often a character can be commissioned within a span of time. You aren't going to be having masses of Hypothetical Character X's head being reproduced.

Basically, commissioning a minimee head is commissioning a piece of fan art. Though fan art, fan fiction, making cosplay oufits for sale etc are all gray areas, I also see the value in them. For me, homage dolls with their increased availability and marketing begin to cross over into something else. Rather than fan art, they feel a lot more like a licensed figure, only they haven't been licensed. They don't upset me enough to really get up in arms about it, but at the same time they don't sit quite as easily. Likewise, hypothetically if DIM produced Character X's head as a regular item and marketed it as such, I would not be so comfortable with that either. Perhaps this feels like splitting hairs to you, but as someone who came into the hobby from a place where fan art is a popular and very accepted practice, it makes a very real difference to me.

Even if you dislike both practices, I hope you can see where I and other people might be coming from.

 

*taptap* Actually, I do recall posting somewhere that I thought Gluino would make one kick-butt Alucard.

Notes before I make my point:
I am a huge fan of Castlevania, a fan of Vampire Hunter D, and have seen the Twilight movies. I don't know anything about Grell's series.

So!

I prefer what most people call 'Cosplay' dolls. I like my dolls to be a character that already exist, created by someone else, and I bought Soom's Syen because I thought he made an awesome Chibi-Dracula ala Castlevania. My OE Syen is chibi- Soma ala Castlevania.

I bought a DIM MNM Legolas. Do I think DIM's practices are questionable? no. If they sculpted a head based on another sculpture, I'd scowl (unless it was the artist asking them too), but they are creating a new art based on a different art form. It's not a copy. It's not a recast. And, since no one else out there is selling a Legolas doll, they aren't hurting anyone's profits either.

and I participated in the Nobility doll Edward Moon and Wolfman J threads. For the most part, during that discussion I felt that, even though I am not a Twilight fan, I spent most of my time defending the thread from Twilight bashers, who seethed there. It was unfair to swarm a thread and bash on something that clearly some people were going to like. In general, its rude.

I honestly thought Nobility pulled those two dolls because the company that owns the movies or something had complained, not the fans.

With Grell, that was just sad. Clearly, it was the rage of fans that brought down a doll that hadn't even been sculpted to look like that character, just dressed up. I'm still pretty shocked that it happened.

 

Now I'm wishing I knew Castlevania.... :P (random pointless aside) ...

 

Likewise, my dear!

 

This probably makes me sound lazy/apathetic, but I don't see the problem with either Ringdoll, Soom, or Nobility having homage/cosplay dolls. Sure, I would prefer if the original artist(s) were contacted before these companies began marketing their dolls, but if they weren't, I'm not that bothered.

Considering the cost of making a doll, the wig, the outfit, the accessories, the eyes, and anything else that goes with the doll, not to mention the cost of marketing itself, these companies don't make as much of a profit as we'd like to think they do. If they contacted the artist(s) and got their permission, we're also talking about licensing fees and the like, further taking away from their profit. Also, a great deal of the creative freedom the sculptors, face-up artists, tailors, and others involved would be greatly limited. Maybe they don't want to make an exact duplicate of the original character, but an homage. Differences enough to respect the original artist's work, but similarities to have the actual homage/cosplay doll.

Also, considering the cost of everything, having artist permission and the like would only make the product more expensive than what they had originally - possibly to the point of it not being cost-effective.

I don't know about anyone else, and I don't pretend to even say this is my end-all-be-all of my opinion, but I'd much rather have to pay less for an homage doll made by the company, in the company's likeness than have to shell out so much more to have a duplicate so the artist(s) and affiliates can have extra money in their pockets (and considering the series in question) they don't really need.

 

lol, everyone should know Castlevania mwahahaha.
Its a series of video games (about 25 games dating back to original Nintendo) that has since spawned some action figures and a few mangas.

K done being OT.

 

Since it seems there was an unreported mass die-off of the mods and by decree discussion of Hyperon is no longer welcome in the thread dedicated to him. . . well, unless you want to hump Soom's collective legs anyway. . . it seems I must post here. Lucky (collective) you.

When I painted D I ended up putting my own impression on him, whether I intended to or not. And I just as often painted him in his clothes as described in the novels as being surmounted by a long coat. Sorry for the lousy scans (they were made long ago) and the links to my gallery pages (but the pictures make better sense with the text)

http://loneheart.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_info.asp?ItemID=182720
http://loneheart.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_info.asp?ItemID=166465
http://loneheart.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_info.asp?ItemID=136147

And that is precisely true. It's not the potential for how he could be different, this is the package Soom chose to present him in.

Probably because they were too busy screaming about "Edward" and "Wolfman J" to notice Gluino. They were all released within days of each other, you see. I thought Gluino was a mishmash of Alucard and Saint-Germain, but until the uproar happened over the Nobility Doll releases I never cared about any resemblance much.

But DIM isn't offering a fullset costume, wig, eyes, props, and face up to go with the Minimee service.

In case I haven't made it clear, these types of homage dolls do not bother me. What does bother me is the disparity of reaction. It seems that if you say "boo" in Soom's direction you will get their fans coming down on you like a ton of bricks and you'll get labeled a "hater." It seemed like the supporters of Ringdoll and Nobility Doll were drowned out by the "outrage."

Normally Hyperon would be just my giant cup o' saké and some way to afford him, no matter what it took. But the attitude of the rabid fanbase just puts me off. And yes, under most circumstances I'd ignore them but I'm still having a hard time putting the whole distasteful Sphaler deal behind me.

 

I have problems with any sort of "homage" (I personally hate this term. It allows companies and people alike to brush off the fact that they're riding off the popularity of a character rather than creating something original. "We didnt copy, it's a homage!") dolls.

I believe companies should always, without exception, say clearly and concisely on their page when they release these dolls that they're copies of popular characters. My biggest worry is that I'll fall for a doll, purchase it, and then find out at the next meet that I'd inadvertently bought a doll that'd connect me to liking a manga I've never read nor heard of.

To touch on the apparent double standard being applied here (at least in my own case): With the Idealian doll, even with it's default face-up, it's generic enough that it can be a character of your own rather than of Hunter D. Something that's impossible with the Ringdoll. In short; I can get away with buying the Idealian and put him in different attire/wig and have no connection to the D series. I cannot do this with the Grell doll. And that makes all the difference to me, though I do not approve of either of these dolls.

 

While the photos taken of Hyperon have a total Vampire Hunter D vibe, if I saw that doll in a different outfit/with a different wig, I definitely wouldn't think it looked like D, not like a doll deliberately sculpted to look like a specific person. I don't know too much about the topic outside of what I've seen, though-- I'm not really familiar with the other dolls mentioned, so I couldn't say how closely they resembled the object of their homage.

=^__^=
Anneko

 

Again -- that's not the point. Soom put him forward in THAT outfit and THAT wig.

 

I really love Hyperon's sculpt, but I can't even begin to describe how disappointed I am with Soom right now. Why do they feel the need to obviously make him out to be VHD when the sculpt would have most likely done well without the labeling? The doll is lovely, but the marketing ploy is ruining him for me.
Even so, that's my problem, and it's up to other people to decide if they wanted to buy an 'homage' doll or not; I'm still deciding if I'd be able to live with that. What bothers me is how it was acceptable* for ringdoll and nobility to get chastised and flamed and then Soom just gets a slap on the wrist, if that. The people in the discussion thread throwing around names and calling people Soom haters for disliking this blatant rip-off aren't helping either.

*(acceptable probably isn't the right word, but they weren't really defended as much either)

 

I can see the double standards here. It doesn't really annoy me, it's just exasperating - like all the drama that seems to surround Soom lately. To clarify, the drama I mention is generated by people in the hobby rather than Soom themselves.

I don't mind 'homage' dolls. I think they're pointless when done poorly - why buy an expensive fullset doll if it looks like crap, especially when it's not quite original? - but I admire them when they're well done. Making profit off of others' designs is shady, but I get the feeling that members of the fandom are quick to inform the artist of whatever copyright infringements. It's up to the artist to then pursue it legally.

I wonder if the same people who find company fullsets modelled after certain characters in bad taste also find DIM Minimees that are made after licensed characters or celebrities in poor taste as well? In my opinion, they're more or less the same thing.

 

I have to agree with Baakay.

The original creator is getting nothing from this. And you can bet that Soom will make a fortune from these dolls.

And actually, people aren't supposed to sell fan art/doujin/etc. Making a profit from someone else's creation is just disrespectful.

 

I have to just shake my head here, because I keep seeing this come up over and over and over again, but I have yet to see someone who said it was not OK for the others, but it is OK for Soom. People keep claiming this is happening, but I haven't seen it.

I know that I, at least, have remained consistent on this issue. I didn't see -- and thus didn't weigh in on -- the Ringdoll issue while it was going on, but I would be quite offended if someone made the claim that I thought that what the people shrieking at the company were doing was just fine and dandy simply because I was silent, and yet I see that very argument being applied here as 'proof' that people are giving Soom a pass when they didn't on the others elsewhere in this thread. Talk about twisting all possible circumstances to fit one's own worldview! It's downright disingenuous if not delusional.

To make it very clear: I don't think I have any right to tell people 'you can't complain to a company about -insert whatever you want to gripe about here-, just like I don't think it's improper for people to give any other kind of feedback. I do take serious issue with people trying to bully companies into dropping products just as I take issue with people trying to bully companies into carrying other items and so on. You'll see this in some of the Soom comments from way back in the few cases they haven't wiped the worst of them, where people are screaming in the comments that they made a girl doll when that user only wants boys, or vice versa, or wants hooves or no hooves or any number of other things, in very abusive language. There were even legal threats with re-releases there. It's the strongarm tactics I actually have the greatest issue with, when it comes right down to it. I am not a fan of the pitchfork mob, period.