Homage Dolls - One company's no-no is another's fortune?

@Surreality
Apparently you misunderstood what I was saying. I do think it's unfair that the smaller companies had weaker 'defenses' and were bullied as much as they were, but I also know that things are unfair and obviously the larger companies will have a larger following and therefore more dedicated fans to stand up for them in this sort of instance. I didn't post in the twilight thread either, but at the time that I looked into it it was a discussion, not a mob. And not once did I say that people who were attacking the other companies were now on Soom's side, so I don't know where you got that from.

 

I think also the size of the fandom for a particular character copy does also come into play regarding the number of complainers.

VHD was always a niche fandom at best, and therefore, a lower number of people will recognize it.

 

Apologies Savaille -- I mentioned it was being said elsewhere in the thread, and didn't mean you were the one who was making that claim. (It's a few pages back.)

I think that really might be part of it -- there are people who are not pleased with the mob attitudes, the rallying cries to ban or flame or defame -- and there have been two major instances of it thus far before this one, and that's not even addressing the outfits and such that people have otherwise complained about. I do think there are people getting quite fed up with some of it. I don't necessarily think it's because it's Soom, though. It may simply be that there are enough people who have had enough with companies being bullied.

Maybe because of the consistent stream of horrible behavior, they have a thicker skin and won't cave, but thus far, that's the real difference in this case compared to the others thus far. In all instances, people have argued both sides -- the other two companies pulled the products from sale. That isn't a decision in the community's hands, no matter how much people may want it to be or think it should be/etc. I don't think people can yell at the community (for good or ill) because the companies have reacted differently.

 

@thessaly
Agreed, which is why it'd be really awesome if the companies would say somewhere on the sales pages if the dolls had been homages to other characters (as revien said). That doesn't seem likely to happen though :/

@Surreality
No worries.

Soom and other large companies have an advantage though. They already have their fanbases and losing a few buyers would most likely not affect them as much as if a smaller company were to lose buyers, so it's not just a matter of having a thick skin. If the smaller companies want to stay in business they basically have to go with what the potential customers are saying (not that Soom and the like don't, but they can probably handle some small losses better) and if all they're getting are the messages saying to get rid of the particular dolls, then it doesn't seem like they have much of an option.

Sorry if I'm not making any sense, I'm kind of half asleep

 

One difference I've noticed is that in this instance the "defenders" are saying that those who disagree should go away and make their own "hater thread." I didn't post in the Ringdoll thread (but followed it) but I did post in the Nobility Doll thread. What I saw in the Soom thread, that I didn't see in the others, was the childish foot stomping because people had a different and unwelcome opinion.

 

That's common with anything that's popular, some people cannot take it when they find out not everyone loves their fandom/dolls/whatever. They stomp and cry like entitled little brats at the smallest negativity, even when it's civil and not downright flaming.

 

That's well over the top and rather insulting, considering that -- from what I can see (and what I remember anyway) -- the people who most notably took issue with yet another round of accusations and negativity went to another thread.'

This is supposed to be a positive space, without mountains of accusations and nastiness, with 'controversy' kept to this forum more than the others. Now, I could be grossly misunderstanding that, but the NobilityDoll thread was overly full with accusations (against the company and other members) and exceptional unpleasantness. I really don't have an issue with anyone saying they want to keep things positive and avoid a repeat of the same that we've all seen happen before in the midst of a pre-existing discussion.

If the request was so astonishingly out of line, I don't think the mods would have directed those participating in that discussion to start a thread here where controversial topics are appropriate and people know what they're getting into when they participate, and instead would have taken some other action regarding the situation, but I could be misreading that, too.

 

That's hardly over the top when it's true, I've been accused of being a hater when I said nothing of the sort, I merely pointed people complaining about Soom and Ringdoll's tribute dolls and that Soom is now doing something similar and someone took issue with that.

 

That's the thing. If it isn't the same people, why do you expect the same answers from them? Where is this assumption coming from that everyone has and had the same opinion on these issues? People disagreed about NobilityDoll. People disagreed about Ringdoll. People disagreed -- and are continuing to disagree -- about Soom.

I don't think this is the space for individual personal conflicts, though, and this is sounding more and more like one of those rather than the larger issue this thread is purportedly about. I don't think I'm one of the people you're talking about, but if I am, I'd suggest taking it to PM. (Even if I'm not, I'd suggest taking it to PMs with whoever it was... because painting a huge swath of people with a broad brush over what a few people are doing or have said is problematic at best.)

 

Very true, unfortunately. Something else I saw, when I went back through the Hyperon thread was. . . how can I put this nicely? Celebratory posts that the people who were not in lock-step with the rest of them had gone. Really? Is that the highlight of their day being able to post, "we took our thread back from the meanies"?

 

I don't know if it's the same people, but I have noticed people mentioning the similarities between Hyperon and D, but say they don't give a damn anyway because Hyperon is so beautiful to them, which seems somewhat shallow to me. I don't recall seeing such comments back in the Nobility Doll thread.

Heh, well, whatever. Let them have their small victory, they're probably young after all. I'm much worse when I'm "mean", lol.

 

What I'm saying is, if those people haven't objected to other fan homages, why should they be expected to object to this one?

There's an underlying assumption there that once it's recognized, it has to be reviled. That underlying assumption is faulty.

I'd get the hypocrisy angle if someone was all grrrrrrEVIL! at Nobility and Ringdoll, then said, 'but this one's purty/from Soom/from my favorite fandom/from a fandom I don't care about so it can stay'. It would be inconsistent. I didn't think the Nobility ones should have been pulled (or been a huge drahmah), and feel the same about this one, for instance. That's consistent. Similarly, if somebody hated on the other character-inspired dolls and hates on this one, it isn't hypcritical, either -- it's consistent.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that. This is coming from someone who has loved D and Amano since I saw the first anime in '89. I have a ton of Amano's books (plus a first edition Coffin from Japan). I would love, love, love to have a doll of D! Ironically, it's the rabid Soom fanbase that drives me away from this one.

 

Well, I'm guessing you actually are referring to my comment about it being fashionable to go after Soom, but it... is. It wasn't a personal attack then, simply an observation, (and I'm genuinely surprised it was taken that way, I had to go back and re-read to find that it apparently was). That thing about truth being the best defense is relevant there, however, too.

If you choose to let that drive you away from a dearly-wished-for-for-ages purchase, there's not really anything I can say or do other than say: don't assume all other Soom fans are all whatever I am, 'cause it's an awfully diverse group.

 

I admit that I haven't read this entire thread, so I could be repeating points already made. But personally, I've pretty much seen the same "outrage" over all of these dolls that have been put out by companies. People are crying hypocrisy, but honestly, like surreality said, not everyone was horrified by Judges or the Twilight dolls. People disagreed about it. I'm not offended by Hyperon, I wasn't offended by Judges, and while I thought the Twilight boys were tacky, that's because I think Twilight is tacky and I didn't care for their sculpts. I don't think people are suddenly converting just because it's Soom, I just think the less-outraged side is more vocal this round, probably because it's a more established company that more people pay attention to.

The real headscratcher for me is: where are all these offended people in the mass amounts of minimee group orders? I mean, you can talk about them being limited all you want, but you can't deny that DIM is raking in the orders for celebrity and copyrighted likenesses. Again, it doesn't bother me if they make the dolls, but it seems to me that's where the real "hypocrisy" lies. If you're going to threads about these homage dolls to cry outrage, why aren't you going to people's GO threads and crying outrage?

ETA: Not that I'm saying people should be doing that, it just confuses me a bit.

 

I've paid no attention to the other cases of homage dolls, because of zero interest in the dolls or characters they are representing, but the original D anime was pretty huge to me back in the day. That makes this hit harder with me. Just as sometimes you can be more forgiving because you like who does something/want what they make, it works the other way, too. And this looks a nice version, unlike what, say, recent Transformer movies did to my childhood -_-;. And still, I would never go near it unlicensed.

As for the Soom thread getting rid of its "meanies" . . . I can see why people would frown on that, and yet there is a point where people are just trying to chat and I don't see why they have to be exposed to constant unpleasantness. I've been in a waiting room where one person had a problem with the company and posted constantly in negative tones, and it got old. In a debate thread there's plenty of room for expressing negative opinions, the option of always expressing your dead honest opinion everywhere in all things on all subjects doesn't have to exist in every thread.

ETA: There's a whole other thread about MNM. If there's outrage, that's where is, although they've been mentioned in passing several times in this thread already.

 

Gah, I was just thinking maybe this forum needs a test for mental age and not just a statement affirming chronological age. It gets awfully grade school at times.

Maybe they should be rounded up and made to give their opinion. Just kidding people.

Unless you are one of those positively dancing with glee in the other thread that the "meanies" had gone, then no it wasn't you.

 

That's actually where I am now, ironically. I already have my 'D' that I feel fits the look better than this one (the ID body seems way too brawny to me) and like the Hyperon sculpt as a itself. I don't take issue with homage dolls, so it isn't a deep and personal issue to me on the same level.

I just know they've yanked another doll from the Idealian series -- what would have been the first -- and I adored that sculpt, too. There's no way to get it now, and from my understanding of the situation, that face won't be made available in the future. There will probably be no way to get this one if it vanishes into another homage controversy, despite the fact that the sculpt could stand alone on its own merit and as something other than a likeness.

In my perfect world, we wouldn't see the homages being released, and we would see more formal licensing going on if and when they were. 90% of my reasoning for that is because of the drama that seems to ensue about them each time it arises, which I don't think is healthy for anybody.

In that same perfect world scenario, though, I'd also want to see a better understanding of the law, and less of a hair-trigger on the accusations. Every doll with flaming red hair won't be whoever Grell is. Not every vampire is going to be a rip-off of Twilight. The fandoms... aren't always so clear in their understanding of that simple truth, however. Things like the 'school scarf' lawsuits mentioned earlier in the thread are a good indicator that the default behavior -- even of the legal entities authorized to act -- is to smite first and apply reasonable sense second, and that is fundamentally unhealthy for individuals, communities, companies, and so on.

It also makes the fact that two people can come up with similar ideas without ever knowing about each other's work -- not the case in the case of deliberate homages, but it can happen, and when it does, it can be mistaken for one or accusations can start flowing -- all the more problematic when the culture is to condemn first and examine later. Usually, once the condemnation is done, no one bothers with anything further.

 

I've been a professional artist for decades. I care a LOT about copyright.

But most people don't have a clue about what is actually copyright-able and what is not. Copyright is only about using existing images and words, and there has to be enough that is recognizable enough to the majority of people. Income doesn't have to be lost, but that can be a major factor.

Characters in books and movies and such aren't covered by copyright. They must be Trademarked. This is tied to company image, to protect it and not confuse people. It's not quite the same thing as making sure the artist is not ripped off, but it can act the same way.

Anyway--with dolls, they can look as alike as anything, but if they have been sculpted from scratch and not just re-cast from another company's product, it's not actionable.

When it comes to characters made into dolls, as long as you don't use the actual NAMES so that it seems like you're promoting an official product, it is usually OK. Some celebs and some characters are fully Trademarked, however. So things get tricky.

But I wish people would stop talking about such a complex subject if they don't know what they are talking about. It makes things even more confusing!

Soom having a doll that is a dhampyr wearing a floppy hat is NOT doing something illegal as far as I can tell. (Admittedly, I'm a bit better on 2D image copyright, which is my main business--when it comes to Trademarks and 3D stuff, I have less of a clue.) Anyway--if Soom had copied exact character designs, that would be a bit more egregious. But it's up to the owners of whomever has the rights to Vampire Hunter "D" to fight the legal battle. Not any one else. And I don't seriously believe they would have a case. As others have said, guys with long hair and floppy hats are all over the place. Yeah, we all know about "D" but it's NOT a "D" doll... and "hommages" are totally legal.

I don't know about the other cases mentioned, but unless they actually used the words "Twilight" or the names of the characters, they could make dolls that could be the characters as long as they didn't look exactly like them.

Hey--if you object, don't buy hommage dolls. Personally, they don't bother me unless they are not hommages, but have totally taken everything about a character and copied it exactly... and it just shows a lack of creativity. But making a doll that could be "D"-like is fine by me. I'd actually BUY it for that reason. I have an official "D" doll and it is ugly as hell, for one thing. So the license holder isn't going to lose money. And if you're worried about the actual ARTIST--it's unlikely they'd get paid even for the official doll version. (Sadly, that's often the lot of creative folk...) So don't think "oh, poor artist"--it's usually some corporation getting the money.

And... so what do you think of all the people who have dolls that are celebs or anime characters???

Or what about the minimees?

Well... the minimees don't look all that much like characters until they are faceuped and dressed, and that's all done by the owners. What they sell is the bare sculpt, and that could look entirely NOT like whatever they are supposed to be, if the faceup is different or they aren't dressed in an exact costume.

I think people need to relax a bit. Get after people who are actually doing wrong, like selling re-casted dolls. Beyond that, let people be free to sculpt and sell what they want.