Homage Dolls - One company's no-no is another's fortune?

Actually, I disagree with the Minimee orders too. Unless it is actually a mini YOU or an original character, they really shouldn't be done.

 

I've never run into anyone who thinks all vampire stuff is a rip-off of Twilight . . . I'm a little afraid of my reaction if I ever do O_O. Best case scenario is I laugh at them like Shigure at Tooru . . .

And while I do agree that accusations of copyright infringement can fly fast and furious, and what companies do with copyright can certainly cross the line, I often find that fans misunderstand laws in the opposite direction. Fanworks, for example, are not always legal, and I've run into any number of fans who think they are.

Just an opinion, but I think the copyright holder could have a case on this one. He has the gacktdamn sword, this is not a particularly generic image here. But regardless there is a spirit of fandom I feel gets trompled on in cases like this. Fanworks are done out of love and enthusiasm, and (from what I've seen) do no direct harm to the creator (and may do indirect good, drawing in new fans -- I've seen it happen).

But you don't get to play individual fangirl/fanboy when you're a company. And that fangirl with the painting of D, labelled as D, sold as fanart of D, feels more honest to me than what Soom's doing here. At least the hypothetical fangirl would tell you who the original creator is and most likely also where to get his stuff for yourself . . .

ETA: In the case of Japanese mangaka and character designers, they tend to actually *gasp* get paid for spin-off stuff.

 

Actually, the Idealians sword is quite different from Ds. Though that's coming from someone who has never watched Vampire Hunter D, but instead did a quick bing for images. So unless Ds sword evolves into some half winged-handled sword, there's no resemblance (Mihawks sword is more similar to Ds than this dolls...).

As I mentioned a page or so back, I don't agree with 'homage' dolls, but they'd fall under the category of "doujin". As long as the doll isnt being advertised in a way that makes it seem like official merch, in competition with official products, and is sold in limited quantity, it flies.

So, the Grell doll would also be considered a-ok. The Twilight ones I'm unsure of, since those characters wouldn't share the same thin line relationship as Asian-based publishers do with fan creations. I find I see a lot more distress over this kind of thing with the English community (cultural difference? maybe just more outspoken about it). I find it very strange that contacting the characters creators keeps being brought up again and again. Do you see other creators of fanwork and doujin contacting the creator? No. So I dont understand why this would differ, unless views are being twisted simply because the doll costs more than, say, a printed work.

 

Thank you. I was beginning to think I was being overly sensitive. Because, although maybe he's too tiny to notice, there is a Sphaler in my avatar. Why on earth would I (thanks to the kindness of friends actually) have a Soom doll if I "hated" them? I'm sure they (the other people posting in that thread) would dislike being labeled unfairly, so why did they feel it was okay to do it to others?

I also didn't appreciate being called out (not by name of course) on reporting the doll to the creator. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't really want me to do that. . . although I could see it as an excuse to make a scapegoat of me.

I could see that if the people expressing a differing opinion had been rude about it. It struck me that they simply didn't like the opinions being expressed and wished to shut down the conversation. Had any posts truly been out of line they would have been deleted. There's a "report" link for objectionable posts. Just as, if you click on a user name, you can go to their profile page and put them on your ignore list.

My reasoning for not objecting is that I do sell fan art, so it would be hypocritical of me to complain otherwise. But my take on Hyperon being D is the sum of the package, not the individual parts.

Just a note, D of the novels is also described as a "well-built youth" so the Idealian frame would not be out of line there.

There are two things that bother me. First, how could Soom be so unaware of what is going on around them that they wouldn't have noticed the controversy surrounding the other "homage" dolls? It does make me wonder (right or wrong) if they went ahead figuring they had enough cachet/fan base to be able to pull it off. Second, it would have been a simple matter to do one of two things. Contact the author and ask for permission. Mr. Kikuchi has monthly get-togethers with his fans, he has even given away short stories (and the rights to publish them) at these events. He loves the fans. I think he would have been willing to work with Soom over licensing. Also, Soom could have done the details differently. Why make the costume black anyway? In Japan anyway, white is the color of death not black. Why give him long hair or a sword? Why the hat and the long coat? Why pick that particular archetype of a vampire hunter unless they were hoping people would make the connection? Given their past performance, couldn't they have come up with their own legend? Why use the dhampir at all?

The previous Idealian became the Mega Gem. Not the face of course, but a comparison of the body leads me to that conclusion. There's no telling when the face they sculpted for the original release will turn up, if it hasn't already. But when I saw the previews for Monzo I thought they either had come up with a buffer Super Gem or found a new use for the first Idealian body.

It will be interesting to hear what people will say when this Idealian hit the Soom store in Japan.

 

I've tried to read the whole thread but, I'll be honest, 7 pages of mostly repetitive discussion..... is a lot to take in

I want to make it clear that I sincerely doubt that there is another person in the world who loathes and detests Grell as much as I do. I actually stopped watching the anime because I couldn't cope with more than three episodes involving him, despite having a great deal of interest in the story.

Yet I was actually quite impressed with the ingenuity of the "Judges" doll from Ringdoll and was incensed when I found out that a bunch of bratty doll owners had picked on Ringdoll until they pulled the doll. Similarly I cannot stand Twilight and don't understand the fascination but I didn't really have any problem with Nobility Doll's Twilight dolls either.

In this case, I absolutely love Vampire Hunter D and actually would have squealed in joy when I saw that picture earlier in the thread, were I not at work. I would love to own that doll, although I won't as he's much to big for me and Xmas has near-bankrupted me, but I do have to agree that the lack of... anything about him is a little... odd. I would have definitely expected more "OMG SOOM ARE COPYING!!" rather than "hmm... I guess he does look like the character... but I'm not going to go yell at Soom" which does seem more to be the case here - maybe VHD fans are more, um... mature?

Surreality, as little as I want to get into a debate with you I feel I ought to say; you keep saying that you're not seeing the same people uproaring about the Soom doll as did about the other dolls and that this absolutely disproves the view that people think it's 'okay' because it's Soom and no-one else and that the people who disagree just want to pick on Soom but... well, I disagree I think you ought to consider the point of view that the lack of uproar is not because no-one cares, but either because it's a less well-known and therefore recognisable character or... because it's Soom. I'm sure I'll get a snarky earful for suggesting it, but I actually really love Soom as a company and absolutely do not want to see this doll get pulled - but then, I didn't want to see the others get pulled either. However, it very much does feel that there is a mentality that if you're a larger/more popular/more well-known company you're less attacked for doing things that other companies cannot - NOT JUST SOOM. The point is that the lack of an uproar over a D-styled doll speaks as much volumes as the outrage over Judges.

The difficulty is that both of our arguments are equally valid, as we cannot hope to read the minds of the entire fanbase and make a factual decision based on our findings We are both making grand assumptions based on our own points of view, opinions that are both equally viable but no more or less factual than one another.

Within the entirety of the BJD hobby, not just with cosplayed/copied/homage dolls, I have noticed a massive amount of... well, I'm not entirely certain I would call it double standards, so lack of consistency is more accurate I think. I have quite literally seen one person violently shot down for an idea and then another praised the same day for a very similar, if not almost identical idea. And I'm not necessarily talking about on DoA either, before anyone starts demanding thread links.

I think this lack of consistency is something we just have to learn to live with. No-one's going to attack a company they love, that would just be silly. However, if it's a company you care little or know nothing about it is much easier to climb up onto one's high horse and rally the troops to the Q&A boards. And it's not just within this hobby either, unfortunately, although I do feel it's particularly bad here (in the hobby, not as in the forums) but that is probably more to do with lack of personal experience of anything else. But it's definitely nothing new or unique to our hobby. As a member of the anime & manga community I have seen countless people arguing over why fansubs are terrible and damaging to the industry, only to find them posting in scanlation threads squeeing about the newest chapter of their favourite manga... This, I feel, is not much different. Diversity is the spice of life and all that, and while I would love to see some sort of community solidarity in the case of homage dolls (i.e. it's okay for anyone to do them/it's never okay to do them) I won't hold my breath for it.

TL;DR: I love the VHD doll, don't want to see homage dolls taken down by companies even if I don't like the character it's portraying, think there's a lack of consistency in the community, wish there was better consistency.

I think that's a fairly accurate summary of my loooong rambling post Sorry, I tend to get easily distracted when typing >.>;;

 

Yep.

This. idrisfynn. You completely called it.

I wasn't going to mention this to any but a few friends but I think I will. I sent a concerned pm to one of the "foot stompers" expressing my opinion that she misread my intention (and many others', I suspect) -- that we neither hated Soom nor hated this particular doll, but rather dislike the uneven way people seem to react to these issues. I was concerned primarily because I have enjoyed this person's postings in the past and didn't want to create friction where none should have existed.

What I received in response was a very pleasantly worded reply that basically said "I don't care to be in the same thread with people who don't share my opinion about the doll." It also failed entirely to acknowledge my concern for her opinion, and ended with the polite equivalent of "go away."

Well, as Surreality mentioned, Dezarii was completely correct in asking us to bring the more heated portions of the discussion over here so that the squeeing can continue in the discussion room. There's nothing wrong with that at all - that's what this area is for. But excuse me? Some other member-at-large gets to decide who can and can't share her space on a public forum, in a thread supposedly dedicated to discussion of this very doll?? The mods get to decide this, not someone who just doesn't want rain on her happy little flower parade. (*cough* that was a bit spicier than I had intended but you see my point, I think).

Um. Childish. I *adore* this doll; he's breathtaking. I'd still rather not give Soom my money for it unless VHD's creators are getting some of it too. But don't go labelling me (or anyone else) something I'm not just because I happen to find the whole issue an interesting philosophical and intellectual exercise and one that really needs to be worked through.

I mention the personal instance here not to call that member out, or to yelp "woe is me," but because it's such a perfect illustration of something that really bothers me. I don't understand how we've arrived at a place where everything is black or white, and you get a label from which no deviation is allowed. I think all the convoluted thought processes in just this thread point out how many and difficult the areas of gray can be. I always thought the idea of discussion and debate was to open your brain and let other ideas in to percolate - not just to stomp your feet, slap a label on someone else and slam the door in their faces.

Call me old. Call me Ishmael. Just don't be flipping RUDE to me when I am attempting to understand you. Yes?

Onward.

Oops, ETA: Just read this from redfeathers: "ETA: Not that I'm saying people should be doing that, it just confuses me a bit. " EXACTLY. It is confusing, which is why I raised the issue in the first place in the discussion thread. There's a grand lot of contradictory thought and behavior, and while nobody is ever able to be thoroughly consistent (though we try, yes?) it seems reasonable that we talk about some of this stuff. As idisfynn said, it's ultimately a personal decision; but getting as much information as possible before arriving at the personal decision is usually a better way to go about it.

In... a non-antagonistic way.

And we are ALLOWED to do that -- unless the forum owners and operators say otherwise.

Unfortunately it's way too easy to get lost in the wall of words and take people the wrong way... *sigh*

Stick a fork in me, I think I'm done.

 

... What lack of uproar?
I dunno how much you were hoping for, but we're already on Uproar Page 7.

 

I don't always agree with what you have to say, but man oh man I do like the way you say it. This in particular made me nearly snort cocoa up my nose and onto important paperwork.

 

Isn't that the truth???!! I hooted out loud.

Loves me some JennyNemesis, that I do.

 

From what has been discussed about them before and from what information they've shared with us, they tend to plan things well in advance. It's entirely possible they had this guy started already when all of that hit the fan, or were already committed to the design at that time. It wasn't too long ago, at least for the Ringdoll issue, from what I can tell. I don't know if this is the case, but I would consider it an equally valid possibility.

Also, they've done these before without incident -- Onyx (actually credited on her MD page I believe) and Gluino (not credited) being examples.

I don't disagree re: discussing the possibilities with the author, but as to the design choices... dang, I'd love to discuss how many different directions they could have gone with it (because I think that's fun in a brainstorming sense), but in a sense, that's monday morning quarterbacking at this stage, and it's easier to make those calls in hindsight. As for the dhampir, a quick web search on them the other day just to find out how prevalent the term was turned up at least three in modern fiction that are vampire hunters, so while I'm not saying they weren't going for D resemblance with that choice, it's actually a fairly common choice and not as distinctive as even I thought it was. (Probably keys off of the notion of self-loathing and self-control, which are interesting, but not uncommon, story fodder.)

Unfortunately, I think, when asked, they said it wouldn't be turning up. The body is definitely the MegaGem.

Totally agreed. In a way, I am curious because the mentality surrounding items like this there seems to be quite different than what we see in the states, though -- in a sense this whole issue makes me a little uncomfortable because while I know something about where the legal and cultural limits are in the US about this, I am not as familiar with the same things when it comes to Japan. I just know there are some pretty significant differences in practice, even if many of the laws may be quite similar or are part of international treaties/collaborations on copyright/trademark/etc. I get supremely uneasy when people seem to be trying to apply the standards of one place to another (in either direction) because it can lead to some very bad misunderstandings and misconceptions, and can create some impressive problems as a result of it. (I have little coffee in me yet, and this is probably a huge issue unto itself that could some day have its own thread, but hopefully that made a bit of sense. )

There actually was some from what I remember -- the thread got a housecleaning.

It's certainly possible that there are some people who feel it's OK just because it's Soom -- I'm just not seeing them. No snark about it, really. It's simply an accusation that went flying fast and furious, repeatedly, based solely on the lack of commentary. (Maybe the outrage budget got used up on the lack of outrage?) I just don't like people insisting that because there's not ninety pages of flame-fest, it has to be that 'just because it's Soom, they're getting a pass', when there are a lot of other factors in play that were being deliberately ignored. That's really all there is to it from my perspective; I don't think the jumping to conclusions, particularly ones that assign positions to people who are staying silent (perhaps just because they don't want to be involved one way or the other). It's like... which side gets to claim the silent? Both will think they have a right to do so, when both could be wrong. The people making the claim didn't even seem to want to consider it could be anything but what they were assuming it was, and that makes me a bit uneasy.

In part, because I am so with you on being weary of the drama over the lack of solidarity on this issue. And that's probably a factor, too. How many people really feel like diving into it again so soon? I totally missed the Ringdoll one while it was going down, but the Nobility one left such a sour taste in my mouth that I wasn't looking forward to another round, no matter which company it was about. (In my head, I pause to wonder how many of the people raging over 'copied ideas' have illegal music or movie downloads on their computers due to the same weariness over some of the real hypocrisies that people seem willfully blind to. Separate issue, I know, but it's one that always pops into my head when things like this come up.)

Apologies for what are probably ninety zillion tense or spelling errors, the coffee is still blurbling.

 

First I'd like to point out that just because people admit that he looks like D and is more then likely a D homage doll, but then say they don't care does NOT mean they've somehow switched sides. Because I NEVER care when a company does it. I have other things to get angry about then how a company markets or shadow markets their products. So I don't think I'm some how being inconsistent.

I did see one person call someone a Soom hater, which I thought was uncalled for as well. I personally just thought most people like myself just didn't feel like dealing with it (and perhaps for many of them again) and just trickled out and then came back later when the discussion was mostly over. For me it has nothing to do with not wanting to hear others opinions on the matter, but after a certain point there's really no need (for me anyway) to continue discussing it. It really just goes back and forth continuously, like what this thread has done. Which is all well and good in a debate thread. Which is why I think we were asked to make one so that other things could be discussed in the other thread and those that don't/didn't want to get involved didn't have to wade through posts talking about whether homage dolls are okay or not. And why Soom "seems" to be getting a free pass.

And honestly I don't see the inconsistency either. That whole assumption seems to be based off the fact that people seem to think that there should be more outrage based off of previous experiences. And that Soom should have to pull it's doll to. Just because Soom isn't cowering under the fear of it's own fandom doesn't mean they're just skipping by unscathed. There are so many other factors involved in this.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for making my morning.

 

I see this as more of a licencing issue than one of trademark. Dark Horse is is currently manufacturing and selling a line of "official" Vampire Hunter D figures, and I would assume* that they have the exclusive license to make and distribute VHD toys in the United States (and perhaps elsewhere). If this is the case, then it is Dark Horse, not the character's original creator, that would have a legal cause of action.

Personally, I don't like it when companies profit off of other people's intellectual property, so I wouldn't buy this doll.

*yes, I know what happens when you assume

 

The reason people "demand" links is because no one should be making broad accusing statements on the forums without the facts to back them. Is we judge situations based on feeling I certainly can't wrong anyone for that. Most of us do from time to time. However posting on the DOA board that there is a double standard and pointing fingers at silent members is just not ok unless you can base it off more than a feeling. This is a public forum.

 

I'd never heard of Vampire D before.

Yet, the moment I saw Soom's first promo image, my mind said "vampire hunter."

Wasn't because of the "dhampir" text either, as I'd no idea what that meant until now (sup, Wikipedia?).

So I recognized the doll as a vampire hunter, generically, because the image of a vampire hunter is pretty ubiquitious in pop culture, east and west.

Personally, the doll reminds me of Van Hellsing--



--and one of my favourite obscure Japanese novels features a silver sword-weilding vampire hunter with long black hair, trenchcoat, scarf on his neck, oversized hat, etc.


Soom's vampire hunter is reminicent of other vampire hunters, without being an exact replica of any of them.

Grell, however, was... Grell.

No other way to slice it.

Having said that, my first reaction to seeing Grell was "hey that's pretty cool! They did a great job !" When I scrolled down and saw the "sorry, we're not selling this doll anymore due to massive DOA butthurt" message from ringdoll, I was amazed people could be so nasty as to get a doll discontinued.

Shouldn't the people attacking homage dolls also attack doujin circles, cosplayers and fan figure creators?

Anyway, Grell = specific; vampire hunter = generic. And I've no problem with either homage.

 

My mistake, I thought this was a debate on the 'copying/homage' situation and the lack of consistency in the case rather than the Soom issue as a whole

Aaaand this is why I should actually read doll discussion threads

I completely agree with you here, and I do see your point about the silence, I just felt that it was extremely odd given how readily people expressed their opinions with the smaller, more easily swayed companies.

Indeed it is a public forum, but I don't desire to cause drama. If you are desperate for me to give case and point I am happy to PM you the details, but posting them publicly when it was simply something I observed and not something I was personally involved in is not something I feel comfortable - nor that it is my place - to do. As I say though, anyone who feels that I am making a "broad accusing statement" who wants "the facts to back them" is more than welcome to PM me

Sorry that my post wasn't really as clear as I had intended....... I really need to stop posting in Debate threads at work, as I have to do it fast and don't think things through as much as I probably should in order to make them completely understandable to everyone who's not in my head

 

Personally I don't see why this issue gets brought up all of the time. Almost every company is guilty of it at one point or another and very few actually get the rights to do so (though Souldoll and Volks come to mind as those who get liscenses for their character dolls). Soom has been making dolls off of others people's characters for a long time. For instance the light and dark girls (can't remember their soom names) were from a Korean Online Game originally. -shrug- but onto your questions:

Why was it not okay for X company to make homage dolls but it's okay for Y Company to have a homage doll?
Easy, 1 popularity of the company and 2 how big of a fan base said homage character has. Is it ethically correct? no. Is it fair? no. But then that's life.
Also, if we feel there's no problem with these dolls, should we let companies know that it's okay? Freedom of speech, if you feel something is good, bad, incorrect, wrong, etc...then you have the right to express your opinion. Just know that they have the right to ignore it. And personally if you're really that in love with the artist who originally did the artwork shouldn't you tell them first instead of complaining to/about the company? Maybe some artists would like the publicity.
Also, if you feel there is no problem, how do you feel about people who are a part of this community emailing these companies to tell them to stop? To each his own. I've been on both sides of that particular wagon at one point or another.


BTW, personal opinion here: there is nothing different in someone doing a homage doll than someone selling fanart/costumes on DA or at a convention. People should stand on one side of the other. Do not be the one to complain about a homage doll and then draw/sell/buy fanart/cosplay or pirated goods. It's all the same issue.

 

i also didn´t know vampire hunter D.

but the face made me like: ohh a vampire hunter
I may think it´s just :you know how a vampirehunter looks like? /:

 

Would opinions change if the Soom sculpt wasn't wonderful?

Same company....... lousy sculpt........... same opinion?

 

Ugh not this argument again,

And Yes I am stating the fact that is thread is not an discussion, but rather an argument of two sides.

I see no difference between a Homage doll that may resemble a character silghty made by a company or a Cosplay Doll put together by an owner that is exact to the anime/movie/manga ect ect?

If you complainers hate Homage dolls so much then why don't attack Cosplayers too?

It's pretty much the same thing, you pay for a costume to look like a character, the only difference I see is the size of the costume.

I like Homage dolls companies make/put together, I like seeing them, it give me ideas on how I might put together my own "Character" doll.



This was my post on Ringdoll's Judges subject I think it's appropriate for this thread:

 

Oh interesting, kaourika... I'd never actually seen Van Hellsing before except in quick little preview shots and he was moving too fast to get a really good look at the accoutrements. I see now why people were saying that but... does he have pointy ears? ^_^ (serious question, I actually have no idea).

And... isn't the "obscure Japanese novel with a vampire hunter" -- Vampire Hunter D? I mean, that IS where the anime came from. Except that they're not so obscure any more now that you can buy the novels in translation (looks to her right... 14 of 'em so far...)

With all due respect, elysion_gear, debate often does resemble argument. Why? Because it is ARGUMENT in the root sense of the word: taking one side or another of an issue and ARGUING its merits or lack thereof. This is what we do in school, yes? "My professor wants me to pick a controversial issue and find some scholarly articles to support one side or another. What's a scholarly article?" (yes...we've just come through finals season and I'm a university librarian, can you tell?)

It's what our elected politicians do for a living. They USED to do it in a civilized manner, but now so many of them don't quite understand the difference between a fact and an opinion that the civility has gone all out of it, as it has here.

What IS wrong with raising the issue, anyway?

Are we afraid of something?

And if not, and you're just tired of the issue, (the generic "you", not any particular "you") well... nobody says you have to read it, right? I actually have learned quite a lot and reconsidered a few points while reading this thread, to say nothing of having a great laugh or three.

And, um, it's not really my place to say what anyone can or can't discuss here. Seems to me it's not anybody else's place, either -- except maybe the ModSquad.