How known is TOO known?

Errr excuse me? Have you not noticed that a LOT of people have the same model of dolls? That what the databases are all about....

 

Mmmm...not exactly. It's the community that ultimately decides what is a part of it and what isn't. There are already lots of bjds that aren't included here because they aren't Asian style, yet they're still ball jointed dolls and no one in their right mind would dispute that (they are bjd without being abjd). So if there were a lot of cheap mass produced dolls with ball joints, it wouldn't be wrong to call them ball jointed dolls, because that's what they would be. However, they would have nothing to do with the dolls that this community is all about.

Also, the people most likely to be interested in the hypothetical dolls you're talking about are really a different demographic than what you have here, so I don't think they would see any conflict with our community and vise versa. Plus, since our resin dolls have ball joints, they are obviously ball jointed dolls and nothing can change that--it's a fact that's not actually debatable. I also find it kind of amusing that people are so concerned about some imagined mob of people just waiting to take over our hobby when our hobby is really just a small subsection of another hobby (doll collecting) and isn't something the 'masses' are likely to ever take much notice of. People who go to anime cons or read magazines like Haute Doll do not the masses make.

You can't sue someone for making a doll with ball joints--people have been making bjds for centuries. You could only sue if they recast another company's sculpts. People really need to stop and think before getting worried about this.

 

Not to mention that I believe that, even in the case of a recast, you would have to be the creator of the original sculpt to have a leg to stand on in a suit.

I may be off on this, but what I'm interpreting as the cause of this wave of (in my opinion) rather irrational upset over a hypothetical situation is the feeling that if something that somehow resembles an ABJD is made available to the masses at large it'll somehow make their dolls less 'special'. Given the logistical nightmare of producing a fully customizable cast resin doll in large enough numbers to warrant distribution at a store like Wal-mart (and the attendant low prices) I'm of the opinion that this is a completely boundless fear. Dolls with ball joints may eventually appear on the mass market. Does this make them a 'threat' to our community? Hardly. A $20 plastic or vinyl jointed doll is by no means the same as a $200+ cast resin customizable doll, and trying to group them together is a bit...well, silly.

 

Very true--suing would be ridiculous on multiple levels

You aren't off--I think that pretty much describes the situation. The chance of it happening is well, it's pretty improbable which should become fairly obvious when people take into account the differences between our resin dolls and anything that's going to be mass produced on that scale along with the differences in demographics involved. Also, just because the hobby has grown, does not mean that it's anywhere near mainstream or ever likely to get there. I think people can get isolated in our own little group and lose perspective when it comes to our hobby's rather humble place in the world.

 

*jumps in late*

As someone who has grown up with the idea of not being swayed to buying brand over generic, since 90% there is no or very little difference in quality, the idea of mass produced and less pricey dolls seems like a great idea. I'm brand new to the hobby, and the idea of spending nearly $200 on the first doll I want is a little startling, and, to be perfectly honest, discouraging, since I already live my life on a budget. I literally balked at the $750+ limited edition dolls I've seen.

An expanding market would allow new companies come up with newer, cheaper dolls, and to force older, pricier companies to be more competitive. Accesories and clothes would be more easily obtained. New creative people would show up.

However, I also understand the argument that having a sudden growth in popularity would have short comings to older or more experienced fans of the dolls, such as copy-cats, cheap knock-offs, and so on.

I just don't see how the hobby becoming more mainstream could be a totally bad thing. I'm not trying to buy my first doll becuase it's not a well-known hobby or vice-versa, I'm getting into it becuase of how much joy I see it's bringing everyone here and the ones I know personally, and I want t o understand and have that.

 

Me Butting in........later.....I think it's helpful to look at these dolls as the 'art' they are...each is one of a kind... it is created from the artist's sculpt but then passes to the owner who designs the character. To compare them to theoretical mass produced bjd's, is like comparing a painting by one of the old masters to a mass produced poster quality print of the same. I don't think mass produced dolls would have the same appeal to the people who are loving the authentic bjds now. Two very different audiences for two completely different entities.

 

As for me, after reading many responses, I think I'll have to agree with the "this will most likely not become a mainstream thing" idea. But hypothetically speaking, as long as quality doesn't decrease, everything's fine.

 

Believe me, Mattel is *not*, I repeat *not* going to do a BJD or even a DD/Obitsu type doll. I know a guy who's a designer there. Mattel is all about THE CHEAP. Other than for the high-end collector dolls they are not going to do super jointed dolls, and even there they skimp. The guy in question absolutely LOVES BJD, the aesthetic, the craftsmanship, but he knows for a FACT that Mattel would never go "all in" on anything close to that.

However, that said, there's a Canadian toy company that's rolling out a new line...won't mention it or the company but suffice it to say they have swappable wigs, and bodies almost as completely jointed as 23-27cm asian fashion dolls. They even have acrylic chip eyes instead of painted on eyes...not replaceable or changeable, but they look...I dunno...BETTER than painted on. I think the influence there is on one hand the big-head asian fashion dolls and on the other hand the big-head domestic dolls including the line that got shut down by Mattel.

If said Canadian company did a large scale version of the line they might come up with something commensurate with the DD/Obitsu large scale dolls. I don't know if they have the guts to do it, but stay tuned. They'd of course not be welcome on this site, but things could get interesting if they did. I wouldn't be surprised if they became a "gateway drug" (heh) for our hobby. I know in my case the 27cm asian fashion dolls were my "gateway drug"...I still only have one big beauty in my collection but lots of cute little minions I cannot talk about here.

 

(emphasis mine)

This would be in the 10% where there is a HUGE difference in quality. Monetarily, mass-producing a customizable resin BJD with interchangeable eyes and wigs and whatnot at a "Wal-mart" price point is just not possible. I'm pretty sure (someone who sculpts/casts, could you verify?) that you can't even get the raw resin for that much money, and that's not even taking into account the specialized equipment, technically trained labor, packaging that's much more involved than your standard plastic doll boxes, the inevitable choking hazard of changeable eyes...suffice to say that it's probably not going to happen any time soon. A jointed mass-produced doll might be in the offing, but it would be so different from a resin ABJD that the only thing they'd have in common is being jointed dolls.

(Not to mention that it's really not possible to have a 'generic' BJD, since half the allure is that each company's sculpts have such an individualized aesthetic...)

@Taco: I do think perspective is key here. Sure, there's what...20K+ members on DoA? That's a lot, but then you expand that out to however many millions of people the mass market caters to...yes, I'd say we still qualify as a very small niche hobby. Even with, say, 20 new people joining DoA every day, it'd still take over a century to get to one million members. The ABJD collecting market is a looooooooooong way from being "mainstream".

 

That's apples and oranges once again, 90% of what you buy in Wal mart IS purchaseable in Mom and Pop stores. Bjds are not exactly canned beans that you can buy anyplace in town. Luxury goods are not and never will be sold in Walmart OR any other small Mom and Pop type of business.

 

It could, but I'm going to hit one point that -- no offense -- you're entirely missing.

These hypothetical dolls would almost certainly not be declared on-topic at DoA and therefore would have very little impact on our corner of the hobby.

The odds of them fitting the necessary criteria to be declared on-topic here are slim to none. In the end, it honestly wouldn't matter how much (or how little) they cost or how many people bought them; as has been said, it's apples to oranges. Entirely different dolls, NOT dolls that would be discussed here, and as such not something that would somehow "dilute" our hobby or push any of the ABJD ateliers out of business. "Made in China" =/= instant ABJD.

Obitsu and DD are on-topic here, but it's my understanding -- if I'm wrong, correct me -- that they were grandfathered in because they had been on-topic before DoA's criteria for what an on-topic ABJD is settled into the form it has today. The Volks EB dolls, while vinyl, jointed, and capable of taking changeable eyes and wigs, are not on topic for this board and I fail to see why some hypothetical mass-produced doll that has joints would suddenly be on-topic and therefore a threat to the ABJD creators we all know and love.

Entirely different creatures, entirely different planets. They can't really be compared, because they're so different.

 

I think there's a limit to that. There's less expensive relative to bjds and then there's truly cheap. With items made for bjds, there is a certain standard of quality even on those items that are less expensive, and you can't keep to that basic quality if you drop the price too much. While plenty of people are budget minded, if you look at a lot of threads in the buying and shipping and company feedback areas it becomes pretty clear that meeting a certain standard of quality is actually important to a lot of people--if a company ships out something substandard people are not happy campers.

Luts and Volks clothes maybe less expensive than some of the experienced seamstresses, but it's still nice clothing with plenty of detail and that is unlikely to up and fall apart quickly. It's also made specifically to fit abjds (which is often an isssue with clothing intended for nonbjd dolls) Also, while some people will go cheaper on clothes, dolls can be a different matter. The least expensive bjds are still far and away better quality than what you find in Walmart--they are also more expensive and marketed to a different demographic. I really don't think most hobbyists would be happy with the huge drop in quality that would occur if a doll was mass produced by a large toy company.

Except that bjds aren't pocket watches, and I think it's safe to say that the bjd community is quite different from the people who bought pocketwatches in the 1880's so you really can't make a prediction based on that comparison. I can think of examples that run contrary to your predictions myself, because not every thing operates the same way. Considering the function of abjds, and who the intended market is, it is more reasonable to predict that what people are worrying about just won't happen. Most big toy companies are primarily making toys for kids, bjds are intended for an older audience. Big toy company dolls are intended for child's play, abjds are made to be played with differently by adults and are geared towards serious hobbyists and collectors. Big toy companies may put out some collectors editions, but that's not where most of their sales are coming from. Do you see how different the two things are? It won't impact us, because the dolls wouldn't be geared for the same hobbyists that are into bjds. They would be too different, and there would be no competition.

Just to clear this up--they are not technically bjds, and that hinge joint thing you don't want to hear about is actually the reason why. When it comes to doll engineering, our resin strung dolls are considered to be ball jointed--what mechanics have to say about it has no bearing in this case. This is how it's defined in the doll community, and as we're talking about dolls, that's the definition that counts. Anyway, because obitsus are hinge jointed and also made of vinyl, they don't fit the criteria. However, they were grandfathered in because they had been allowed before. If Obitsus and DDs had never existed prior to today, then they would be considered OT on DoA. While I love my obitsus, and think they fit in really well with my true bjds, they are an exception to the rule around here which has been explained by the mods in several different places now, I believe.

 

I have to agree with Taco here, pocketwatches are not in the same category as bjds. Pocket watches are a functional item intended to be carried everywhere with you to ensure you - God forbid- don't miss whatever importnant thing it is you need to attend. Bjds are toys marketed to adults or near adults.

Now one can spend tousands on a watch, Timex certainly hasn't run Rolex out of business anymore that cheap table china and plastic pitchers have put Wedgeworth out of business. The people who want to spend several hundreds of dollars on one place setting aren't the kid of people lured in by a 30 dollar set for five. They are two separate things marketed to two very separate goups of people.

Really, quality with dolls clothes is kind of a snake biting it's tail argument to my mind, none of my dolls will ever wear out their clothes or out grow them. They are far gentler on their knees than my 13 yr old, and we won't even go into shoes, resin vs real. I prefer to buy where I can from seamstresses in the Marketplace because I'm not paying those hideous shipping rates that the doll companies charge.

 

BJDs becoming more popular, of itself, does not bother me. I woud still love my boys and girls just the same. What would bother me would be people with more financial clout looking for a status symbol being able to buy ...say a limited edition that I have become obsesssed with...and me being priced out of the "unique" market forever. It would break my heart for some resin darling to be abused through ignorance just because some one wanted one to show off. That being said, I don't think it will happen. Most people I try to talk to about my dolls think I'm nuts.

 

i hate it when things i love later become popular. it would actually reduce my love for dolls because it would be all i would hear about and it wouldn't feel mine anymore.

 

I'd love to see them become more popular because it would create jobs for more wonderful artists, create more beautiful dolls for us to look at and own, create more of a market for gorgeous clothing and accessories, and bring the price of BJDs down because they would be being produced in larger numbers.

I could care less about trendiness.

 

See, I'm really not too sure about this part. Would there be more cheap knockoffs around out of inferior materials? Probably -- but I don't know if the costs would necessarily drop very much on the ones we see here now.

Some of the people who have cast their own dolls can probably give us a better idea of what the cost breakdown is, but even a quick look at www.sculpt.com at basic casting resins and mold-making materials tells me that these things are -not- inexpensive materials to work with. (And they do have wholesale quantity pricing there, so I don't think there's much of a 'just selling to hobbyists, of course it will be more per item' cost issue with that site's pricing.)