Imagination? Or psychosis?

Most of your comments apply mostly to the other poster, but I thought I would clarify my own post, which is the other one you quoted.

Let's look at the definition of the word soul. These are from dictionary.com.

If you're counting, that's 12 definitions and a link to another entirely different definition. The word soul (as a noun) has at least 12 meanings in the dictionary. That means that in order for you and I to agree about whether I have a "soul," we'd have to decide which kind of soul you meant.

I would not agree with option 1, because I have no evidence that some immaterial part of me can be separated from my body. I therefore don't believe my doll has an immaterial "soul" that can be separated from its body. I would not agree with option 2, because this is a religious thing, and I do not have relgious beliefs that make me think I have a "soul" that will survive my death. I don't think dolls have these either, and I'm not sure if dolls can die anyway. Option 3 sounds pretty far fetched without 1 and 2, but I'm sure a haunted doll would make a great movie.

Option 4 is okay with me, so long as it's only a way of expressing human feelings which have a chemical and external source. I don't really think dolls can have that either, because they can't have chemical emotions without glands and they don't have ears or eyes that work so they can't translate their experiences to the brains they don't have. I'm fine with number 5, but again, dolls aren't people. People definately have number 6 if they have anything, but again, not dolls. 7 is mostly metaphorical, so dolls can have that. Number 8 is fine for people who are passionate about something, like us. Not so much for our dolls, because of the absence of chemical emotions. Number 9 is possible for both dolls and people. Number 10 requires you to believe in a god, so it's going to be debated both ways. I personally don't have number 11, but other people do and should. Dolls can't. Number 12 is an excellent human quality, but dolls don't have this either.

So, I think it matters how you define the word "soul" and whether or not you're religious (and if so which religion you're in). Earlier, someone made an excellent point about animism and western expectations.

And, I'm certainly not calling anyone crazy, I just don't believe in the metaphysical stuff. You're welcome to believe whatever you like. We just disagree on the point that there's something immaterial about being alive.

 

I would say perhaps you are! True animists aren't all that common in the Western world, and there are even fewer who follow that path consistently. For example, they may believe a doll can be imbued with a soul because it is beautiful and human-like, but for do not believe the same of the car their father so dearly loves, the kettle used in the kitchen, or the hand-carved object that they happen to perceive as hideous but to which their grandmother devotes much love. In short, I see animism come up more often as a theoretical justification for people's affection towards dolls than I do in the context of a true believer in the concept. (I'm not saying you aren't a true believer. But it has been my experience that most "animists" are only animists when it is convenient to them, so indeed, you are rare.)

 

I don't know about that...it can be hard to tell exactly where people stand and why unless they tell you directly (a group of people could all be interacting with their dolls but with some it's simply role playing and for others it's in recognition of some kind of spirit but from the outside the group of owners all appear the same). It also depends on how a person defines "soul" and how they believe a doll came into having one. For instance, I believe that there can be more to dolls and that it comes from the owner putting a lot of energy, emotion, attention into them. Therefore, some dolls may seem 'empty' while others feel like there is really something there--but it might be kind of on a spectrum as to how strong that comes through.

Believing that there is some kind of soul or spirit attached is also not necessarily the same thing as believing that they are alive in the way, say my dog is alive. They don't need to be fed, watered, have medical attention etc. Most people take pretty good care of their dolls, so there is little need to fear dolly abuse. And quite frankly, even if there is a doll I were to feel sorry for, it's simply not my place to say. The US is a pluralistic society--I simply can't dictate that other people follow my spiritual beliefs. I can ask that they respect my own, but that goes both ways. So no matter how I might feel about a particular doll, I cannot expect or ask other owners to feel the same way that I do.

*ETA* Also, when people come into this hobby they bring other things with them. Sometimes it's other interests, but it can also be religious/spiritual beliefs, and plenty of people have religious beliefs that would be considered outside of mainstream organized religion. My spiritual beliefs do effect how I view the world around me. Nor does one have to be an animist in a strict sense to believe that it's possible for a doll to have some sort of soul or spirit attached--there are other viewpoints that are also compatible with that belief. It's also possible to encounter nondoll people who express the opinion that your bjd is housing something, which has happened to a friend of mine on more than one occasion. I guess what I'm trying to say is while there are lots of people who view their dolls as just dolls, I don't think that believing that they are more is quite as rare as you maybe think it is.

 

I thought of Lars and the Real Girl the moment I saw this thread topic (if you haven't seen it, check it out, very good movie).

Lars (extremely avoidant and antisocial) orders a Real Doll and believes she is his girlfriend. She has a highly developed character/personality including reasoning for why she is unable to walk (disabled) and talk (shy). Not only does Lars believe this but he expects his, actually real, loved ones to understand and be supportive. It's not a question of his loved ones not believeing what he believes, it's a question of Lars not understanding why someone would think his doll wasn't real.

The line, for me, is drawn when someone can't or avoids interacting with the real world/people, which doesn't have much to do with dolls. The doll could be a symptom, but if the doll was taken away, the behavior would crop up elsewhere.

 

To me, this sounds a little worrysome? If you can recognize that the "voices" of the dolls are really your imagination of their voices (like imagining what a character would say in a story, based on their personality), that's one thing. But if you honestly think inanimate objects are speaking to you, that's a hallucination in my book.

Generally, hearing voices that aren't there (maybe you're religious and believe that God is speaking to you) isn't always indicative of "internal stimulus" as referred to when somebody is having a psychotic break from reality. But, in many cases, psychotic breaks are progressive, often deteriorating, and the longer the psychotic episode continues, the harder it is to return to your previous level of functioning. Basically, sometimes it's hard to distinguish between being eccentric and being certifiably crazy, but if you see that you're slowly believing more and more eccentric things, be careful?

 

I noticed something and this is me being nit-picky...in Lizzard's scale wouldn't the 4 and 5 relate to #3 and not #2????

Before I read these two threads I was/am a "5". I expect people to tolerate my behavior when it comes to my dolls even thought they may not like it...it is that person's choice whether they associate with me or not. I am now trying to grapple with the fact that not everyone has to like or approve of the way that I do things...but I am going to continue to ask that they deal with it the best they can at least until I find another way.

I think people are too concerned what others think of them...it's said that you know your body when you're sick...a lot of times you know when your mind is sick too...it's more of a question of acceptance for fear of others' reactions.

I know I'm taking it to another level but is this thread more along the lines of "Will people think I'm crazy..." as opposed to "Am I crazy..."

 

when i was a kid i lost a mitten. i then spent a couple of hours looking for it because i was worried the other mitten would be lonely without its mate. i think i have a more mature outlook now, at least i hope so, but i do ascribe personalities, and to a certain extent, feelings, to my dolls.

 

I've been there too! Lost hair ties & such...but my worries were
about the lost item being sad and hurt. It definitely took a while
for me to get over those feelings/beliefs I had as a child, but I did.

@xMadxScientistxWell, the dictionary simply stores and explains
all the meanings of the word "soul" that exist. The dictionary did not
create the word. So my basis of what "soul" means comes from a scripture.
(no I'm not preaching) "....and the man came to be a living soul"
The first record of the word soul. How the heck did this discussion
go from crazy people to dolls having souls to people NOT being souls?

 

Well but that's easy though.. grass clippings don't look like a house, they don't function like a house, anyone can see they're not a house. But dolls look real, like real people or creatures, and our brains are made to react to that.
And our brains are also made to try and make sense of things, but when there's nothing there to construct a hypothesis with, we kind of tend to try and put stuff there, so I can see how people can easily put a soul in a doll and believe it like so many people have believed so many supernatural things throughout history.
I guess it IS sort of crazy, but it's extremely common for humans to do.
I know I've crossed the line before. >_<;; Not with BJDs though.

 

I think that as important as it is for people to respect your interests, it's important to understand and respect other people's discomfort or disinterest.

Even though I would be a 2 on Lizzard's rating scale, my family and friends think I'm rather eccentric. For that reason, I don't make them uncomfortable (or bore them!) by talking about my doll hobby. Instead, I focus on the things that we have in common - other shared interests or normal "real life" stuff.

I talk to my dolly friends about dolls. We share the interest, we know the lingo, and we're not boring each other. A lot of my online doll friends have become normal, real-life friends as we've met in person and gotten to know each other beyond dolls. I really feel that people will gravitate naturally to others like themselves.

I don't think it's an issue of everyone needing to approve of your dolls. You just need to find who relates to you about them.

I'm with Lizzard, and I think that religion (or mental/emotional disorder) is cited more often than when it actually is the genuine reason behind a belief or behavior. I think that this is partly because there are a number of areas where it is "small-minded" to voice opinions... and some people fear judgment and want to have a shield to hide behind in case someone else thinks they're weird.

It's like when someone posts something really idiotic, then comes back later to say that they were drunk at the time, or high on FtM hormones. No, you just didn't do any research and said something stupid. Man up, take responsibility!

Again, I'm not doubting that there are animists or people who practice religions that allow seeming inanimate objects any sort of life force or presence. (I'm also not making any judgments on the validity of those views!) I am just saying that I think that true practitioners of these philosophies constitute such a small portion of our population that they should be considered an exception rather than a generalization.

Except that even the largest dolls aren't even waist-high to the average adult and have completely different proportions than humans of that size. Dolls are hard, cold, and immediately recognizable as inorganic. The faces are recognizably human, but more from the arrangement of features than the features themselves.

I will agree that they are human representations, but not that they are not something that our brains could be tricked into seeing as living human.

 

Animism seems to me as valid a belief system as any other, and perhaps more so than some.
Therefore, whether or not we ascribe our dolls souls - along with whatever capability for perception or emotion that goes with it - first and foremost reflects our philosophical and/or religious outlook (or astuteness, depending on said outlook). For my own part, I certainly would not venture into diagnosing this as a "psychosis".

However, firmly believing that our dolls are actual biological life forms, with attendant behaviour and requirements, now that would be an entirely different matter!
Hearing a doll vocalise its thoughts or seeing it walk about the room would certainly seem to indicate a deficiency in the individual's ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality and thus, I believe, merit such a diagnosis.

Now, bearing in mind our hobby's Japanese origin, a Shinto perspective on our dolls may actually not seem wholly irrelevant...

 

How horrible for our dolls (& other inanimate objects) if they did in fact
have souls!! Just think of all the things they are subjected to that
might actually inflect pain or discomfort upon them.... having them sit
or stand for hours/days on end, living in dark airless boxes, being sanded,
being moddedbeing dipped into hot liquid for dying. Getting dropped,
having fingers (or other things broken!) Does a dolls "soul" feel pain the
same way we do? If so how can a dolls soul be consoled? A simple
band-aid over a glued on finger (that will never "heal") won't do anything
for pain, will it? But if a soul simply constitutes consciousness & not
"feeling" (in non-living things) then you have to admit that's quite
convenient thinking, isn't it?

I'm thankful I don't believe in Animism, I believe only living/breathing
things have souls...everything else has energy. But I suppose the saying of
"if it's real/true it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not"might be applied to this.
If that's so then I feel really horrible for all the things that get mistreated
in the world, it might account for why the world has so many hoarders too.

Does your doll AND the box it came in have a soul????
I'd still like to know how this topic went from "people talking to dolls...
to .....dolls have souls"

edit: If your doll does have a soul....what if it doesn't like you?
After all, it didn't choose who it was sent to.

 

Interesting subject! I think that my doll has a soul, but I am only imagining that she is my live resin companion. When I think about it, I was imagining a bit of a sweet and stubborn type of girl, and finding the face mold seemed to sprout out ideas on how she would be if she were a real person. I think it is up to the user to believe when or when not their doll is truly real, and 'crossing the line' is probably to the point where you focus your entire life on the dolls until you don't see the world around you. I think the whole 'imagination' aspect is adding the fun to the customizing of these dolls, and in no way are we mentally disturbed for believing something which may not be true...

...Unless your dolls are like those in Rozen Maiden and actually walk and talk and move on their own. :XD I don't think it's psychosis unless you want it to be, but I've seen many depressed people find therapy and comfort in these dolls. In any case, I believe it is up to the user's views on their doll and the doll's purpose.

...To sum it up, I think it's all really a matter of perspective, and that we all have very broad imaginations.

 

This is such a horrible thread. If I were coming into this thread when I as first became interested in dolls, I would have backpedaled myself out so fast I'd have ended up on the other side of the spectrum collecting Bratz dolls or something.

There should really be a BJD-spirituality forum for this kind of thing. In the end it really has nothing to do with BJDs, because if you think your dolly can talk to you then it's either a religion or spirituality issue, or you're insane.

 

I'm trying to phrase this right, and I'm having trouble this morning, so bear with me...

The problem I'm having with this, is that your line of reasoning basically assumes that people are either intentionally lying or deluding themselves the majority of the time they say they feel their doll has some kind of soul or spirit. It's extremely annoying to have someone put words in your mouth--it's like saying "I think my doll has a soul" and someone else patting you on the head and saying "no you don't really believe that, dear." Other people aren't me and I'm not them, so I can't say what they truly believe or not, but I'm willing to respect them enough to assume that if they say they believe something they mean it. The exception being if they're saying or doing things that are totally contradictory. People who feel that their dolls are only dolls get rightfully irritated when people insist they should believe differently--however, it's equally irritating when it's the other way around. Also...if people really are trying to avoid negative reactions from other people, saying you believe your doll has a soul no matter what the reasoning is so not the way to do it.

My biggest issue with Lizzard's posts was the assumption that people who really did believe there was some sort of soul or spirit attached would of course try and push this view on others and that if they didn't, then they couldn't truly believe their doll had a soul/spirit. This immediately wrote off everyone that believed that there's something more to their dolls while being tolerant towards other community members. If you go by that way of thinking, then no, there aren't very many people who truly believe that their dolls have spirits attached. However, that line of reasoning is pretty flawed, IMO, as people all over the place have strife-free daily interactions with those who hold different beliefs.

I bump into quite a few people on-line and in daily life (both doll and non doll people) who do not hold mainstream religious/spiritual views, which is one of the reasons why it surprises me less that quite a few people (relatively speaking) say they believe their dolls have souls/spirits. Granted, since my own religious path is not really mainstream either, I may naturally just run into other folks like that more, or tend to take more notice of them.

I do agree that mental health stuff gets brought up way too much, but that's in a bit of a different realm than spirituality--it's quantifiable where spirituality is strictly personal and can't be proven one way or another.

 

I'm not sure if you were quoting my post because you were replying to it specifically or if you were just using it as a launch point for your post... but I don't think you understood what I was saying. (Or perhaps I am misunderstanding your response, or I expressed myself poorly. Who knows?)

I did not say that I believed that people were lying when they said that they believed their dolls had souls or an animating force. I am certain that a handful of people genuinely believe their dolls are spiritual vessels for reasons that are completely logical and supported by their religion. Alternatively, I believe that there is a very slim group of individuals who have the underlying mental conditions that would support a genuine belief that their dolls are alive.

My point was that I believe a greater number of people believe their dolls are alive for reasons that have no basis in anything but a healthy imagination and a desire for companionship.... and that attributing the phenomenon to either religion or mental health would be inaccurate in most cases (and as I think about it, disrespectful in some). I believe that some people will shout "I'm crazy!" as a way to justify their belief even if there is no underlying condition, or claim religion even if they do not practice. It's like this in any group on the internet, so I don't think that the doll hobby is immune.

 

Heh! There are lots of crazy beliefs out there, wholly sanctioned socially and by the state. For example the belief that there's a grumpy old man in the sky that cares what you do. I always thought that was rather loopy, but a lot of people are quite sincere in believing this wholly imaginary personage watches out for their bicycles when they go into a store or something, or that the son of this grumpy old man is their personal atm (I'm not exaggerating one bit)!!

As long as one is not dangerous to one's fellow man I don't care what he or she believes.

Raven

 

Taco, we'll just have to agree to disagree. This thread is about debate, and stating one's positions, and this is mine:

I find it hard -- if not impossible -- to believe that anyone would state, "Dolls are alive and can feel. However, I'm tolerant of others. So treat your doll however you wish, ignore that it's got a soul, and behave like it can't feel or care about what you're doing to it. I'm OK with that even though I think it's alive."

You state that it's an illogical position since those of different beliefs live together in peace. True. However, I am not talking about simple differences in private faith. I am talking about disagreements over the fundamental needs of living creatures. When those crop up, peace disappears. I am sure you have noticed the violent anti-abortion campaigns, been horrified at the old tradition of sati in India, and have learned about the history of African tribes and Native Americans fighting to protect the relics and lands they believe are living and breathing. Wars are fought over this issue, and "toleration" is a word that almost never comes up in those cases.

Outside this community I have never seen anyone -- animist, Christian, naturalist pagan, or anything else -- with a genuine belief in a creature's soul state that it is OK for others to ignore that soul. It is a bizarre definition of "toleration" because inherent in it is the acceptance of the mistreatment of others. Think of it this way... Would it be logical to hear someone state that they believe animals have feelings, but have no problem with others neglecting their dogs? Would it be logical for a person state that they believe babies can comprehend more than we give them credit for, yet have no problem with people cussing one out on a regular basis?

I think in society today we have become so concerned about being seen as politically correct that sometimes we claim to be tolerant even where toleration is not required -- or even right. It also makes us afraid to point out what we perceive as serious flaws. People are welcome to disagree with me, of course, but I am just as welcome to have my own position on a matter. I'm tired of being expected to be ashamed for having an opinion, and I'm tired of people relying on political correctness as a shield behind which they can hide.

Please note, that latter part is not addressed directly to you, Taco. It's a general statement to anyone shocked at my "intolerance" for questioning odd logic and calling a spade a spade when that is what I see.

 

Lizzard, I agree with you completely on your point as outlined in your last post. If a person believed that ALL dolls are alive and can feel, then tolerance goes out the window as the desire to protect takes over.

However, I think that an important distinction can be made, that I at least (I won't directly speak for Taco) was trying to emphasize. I won't speak to the life/nonlife concern, as I don't have any personal belief or experience with it, but as to the souls question: When *certain* dolls are believed to be ensouled, then the protections that are naturally extended to all souled entities must then be extended to them. But not to the dolls that are not believed to be ensouled. And so - depending on the thoroughness of the person in question's belief in object ensoulment/animism/etcetera, that tolerance toward other manners of treating dolls can slide around, depending on the individual persons who take it up as part of their personal canon and the criteria for which they decide a doll will/won't have a soul.

I also think that the difference between those who believe in souls in objects/dolls, and those who believe in LIFE in objects/dolls, is an important one that's getting a little blurred in your demonstrative quote. I think there's a difference between:

and

"Dolls can have souls."

And I think the latter is one of the belief systems that can produce, to quote Taco's post above,

 

Nightengale, you make an excellent point about someone thinking only some dolls have souls. But that is a minefield through which I don't know if I'm prepared to walk in a debate, as everyone's criteria for what gives a doll a soul (or not) seems to be different. I can only speak to the general issue of "people who think dolls have souls" rather than splitting it down to all personal permutations. It may not be thorough, but it's the best I can do without writing a novel.

You also make a good point that having life and having a soul may not be considered by some to be the same thing. However, in the end I think that is an unrelated argument, since both "lives" and "souls" are things one would expect others to respect.