Imagination? Or psychosis?

To me, it's silly to judge anyone. I mean let's be real. how many of us have not gotten annoyed with something like the TV? Or the Stove? Or god-forbid, the sewing machine? For example, I had my sewing machine acting up on me. No matter what i did, the stupid thing kept stitching losely. I'd fix it, or so i thought, only to find it was still doing it. I'd start saying things like "What the Heck is WRONG with you???" why won't you work?" Do i believe that the sewing machine has a soul? Or can hear me? no, it's more about me talking to myself, and projecting that onto the machine. I think it's human nature to treat things as living things in many ways.

So yes, i talk to my dolls. I treat them like living things. But heck, i do that with the remote, the TV, the Refrigerator, the sewing machine, etc.

I've seen (OH SO OFTEN) how men treat their cars like women. Naming them a girls' name, and patting the dashboard to make the car start etc. And god forbid you speak about the car as though it's a thing. u'd get responses like "No, she's my girl." LOL

So, i judge no one

I think "normal' society is too wrapped up in what is 'normal' and what isn't. People laugh at me cuz i'm different. I laugh at them cuz they're all the same.

That's my philosophy.

Whenever people make fun of me for collecting dolls, or even interacting with them the way i do, i just look at the source. I pity them, that they live in such a small, closed in world, that the only things they can deal with are those things that make up their small world.

You don't have to 'agree', but judging just makes more of an ass of you, than making me look stupid, which was the intent.

 

It doesn't really bother me, I mean; Who am I to judge? So long as whoever it is is happy then there's no problem really is there? They're not hurting anyone.
I mean, sure.. If believing their dolls are alive in some form or another is causing them to think that they're going to come alive in the middle of the night and cause trouble, or if they hear disturbing voices in their heads and link them to the dolls then that's a different story, because in that position that person can become a danger to themselves and the people around them.

Personally I enjoy sharing a remark or two with my dolls, I'll tell them they look nice or complain that their wigs won't stay on right, or ask them where their shoes are while I'm looking for them (thought I ask myself aloud when I'm looking for my own) so really, yeah... It's like talking to myself only not. And I know people say talking to yourself is crazy but really I don't know anyone who doesn't do it, you know?

So yes. So long as they're not hurting anyone then I see no problem in it, When I see people talking about their dolls like seperate little people, it makes me smile - I think it's really sweet ^_^ besides, little kids do it all the time. I used to think my teddy bears came to life whenever I wasn't in the room xD

 

Hmmm, coming from a world of science, western society, and no particular faith in general, I seem to note a number of opinions in this thread which stem from owners who regularly immerse themselves in their imagination. Writers, artists, etc... It's fascinating, really. And the facets of religions traced in here are thought provoking as well.

I don't feel disturbed by smaller actions like someone talking to their doll, giving them a personality, etc.. I do it myself. Judas is clearly a projection of qualities which I have decided upon to create an imaginary entity, imho. Practices of imagination are perfectly healthy and enriching to life. Psychology encourages it. I think it is especially tempting because dolls resemble humans and great fantastical creatures that are deeply embedded in long-standing fantasies and myths. The importance of imagination is backed with science time and again. New inventions, new discoveries, even in the world of science, depend upon imagination and a sort of faith to pursue. I don't believe that imagination, however "strange" or new, should be something that hinders a person. To me, unless a person is treating their doll like a human [feeding, talking, bathing, going to the bathroom and closing the door for them, etc in the full belief that the doll is doing it themselves] there are plenty more urgent reasons to seek a therapist with more dire consequences. Even if that was the case, there STILL are many more serious things that a therapist should be dealing with.

However, I will distinguish that I do draw a line for myself ; to me, the only energy that my dolls should have is the molecular energy which creates their materials 8D;. I suppose I do have reasons for this choice, as it is consciously done and I'm sure that those people who choose to believe that their dolls house souls and are animate are welcome to do so; it is a little incredulous to me, but I respect this entirely. My world is forever small. I chose this for many reasons, one particularly fueling one [and you may criticize me, but I stand firm] is indeed because of the way western society is. I'm sure a great many of us have found negative reactions towards our beloved hobby, regardless of geographic location, but I think western society is pretty close-minded towards many things. I wish to avoid having my hobby interfere with my [particularly] work reputation and social life. I very much value my opportunities to move forward towards greater things in these two areas. Having my hobby take away a potential promotion is heartbreaking, however irrational I know it to be. Even if it's in the Charter of Rights, if you scare your boss or do weird things, if they don't like you, they -will- find another reason to inhibit you. My personal life is a VERY VERY tiny circle of people, perhaps 10, and even then I would only really reveal dolls to my immediate family. I cannot say that me having a doll does not lessen my romantic chances either, for obvious reasons. You could say I am a very careful person.

To me, there is a time and place for everything. That being said, should another owner feel that there are more opportunities for their dolls to do things than I allow for myself, I wouldn't be disgusted. Or consider them as suffering from psychosis, even in the most clinical of definitions. I am in the study, but in no position to diagnose anyone with a mental symptom.

 

I love reading everyone's views on the subject.
Personally I think arguing over this is pointless. I have my beliefs and others have theirs. Only under some circumstances where beliefs harm others should they be confronted. Example, some believe in god, some don't. Neither sides have proof, you can't preform an experiment and clearly prove either side, at least where everyone would be converted.

As to the original question, I could not draw a clear line between another person's imagination or if they should seek medical help. I personally wouldn't say for sure if someone was crazy. I do not have a degree that would give me the authority to do so. Though I would feel immensely uncomfortable if someone said they hear dolly voices or see them move by themselves.
If someone did have psychosis the doll would only be a symptom, if the dolls where removed from the person they would still have the disorder.

I see my doll as a beautiful work of art, any personality she may seem to have comes from me. She is not living, but a representation of my character. Sometimes she seems to give me looks, but I know its because of how I positioned her eyes or tilted her head.

I would not want my doll to have a soul, without one she is completely mine. But that is my view. I talk to her some times, but I hope she never answers back. When I watch tv she often sits on the coffee table but I do not beleive she watches tv - she is just there for me to look at. She is sitting right beside my laptop while I'm writing this but I don't believe she can read what I'm writing.

If my doll where to start talking and moving it would scare me. I wouldn't know if I should go 1) to the psych ward, or 2) bring her to a preist for an exorcism.

Imagination and diversity is a good thing. If everyone was the same it would be pretty boring. My opinion is that reality can be different for everyone. Three people can watch the same event happen but there would be 3 different stories of the event.

 

I agree with much you say here. However, argueing is one thing that people do by nature. It is very human for people to judge. While i TRY not to judge, i'm sure that on some level, we all do. That being said, argueing is one reason i don't usually come to the 'dolly debate' thread. Some people just do not know how to respect the views of others. If you say you believe your doll has a soul, automatically, people think something is wrong with you, when the proper response, should not be that at all. They should just say "Well, if that's what you believe, that's fine". Instead, it's judgement all the way around. Everyone has the right to believe what they believe. That's their god-given right, as a human being. When people step in, and start pointing the finger at people, accusing them of being 'psychotic', or mentally ill, or needing a therapist, just because "you" (using the term generally here) do not believe that way, well, then there is much more wrong with you, than with them. (again, used generally). I think much of what you said here is VERY well said, and gets your point across without being judgemental Congrats. Well said

If i state that i can hear my doll, that would be to say that i can imagine what they would sound like IF they could talk. I know what the character sounds like. NOT that they actually open their little resin mouths and talk, or use telepathy to communicate. LOL Even I, as strange as i can be sometimes, think that a bit odd, but i too would never try to say that the are "ill", or need help. I do not house a degree of any kind that can authorize me to make such a comment, and it's not my right. People seem to think it is their right to say whatever they want about another person. It's not. It's slanderous, and in a court of law, you CAN be sued for this. I think people really should be careful of what they say about other people. THINK before you speak, U know?

 

I like to pretend that my dolls are people, well sort of... And I do think about how they look, how they might feel and all...
But once I start considering the possiblity that they might have a soul, really have a soul attached to them, I start freaking out.. really seriously... I mean, if they had a soul like the way haunted objects have souls, wouldn't my Loren be seriously mad when I change her body??? Ugh!
So I guess that's where I'd draw the line...

 

Well, I understand that the word soul is related to or created by a religion, but if I'm not part of that religion, do I still have to believe I am/have this religious aspect? And if it's something immaterial and also *undefinable* by the dictionary or even by its own text, what am I suppose to believe about it?

Does soul just mean thing? "...and the man came to be a living *thing?*" If so, I guess dolls are souls, because they are definately things. If it's just a word made up thousands of years ago by people who are too dead to explain it to me, and none of the definitions in the dictionary count, do I have to go along with it? And if so, do I just have to go along with people telling me that something made of resin has one/is one too?

I think in order to believe that a doll has a soul, you have to believe in souls first, and if soul doesn't just mean thing, I don't. You can believe in magic if you want too, but I kind of prefer not to. In my opinion, I do not have a soul. Animals, no matter how sweet, don't have souls. Most of all, inanimate objects such as dolls don't have souls.

That doesn't mean people, animals, and dolls can't be wonderful things. They can and they are. I love people, and I think I can be a good person. I love animals. I enjoy dolls, I can't say I love them like I'd love a person or even like I would an animal. If a building were on fire and I could save just one thing, I'd rather it be a cat than a doll, and I'd rather it be the arsonist than a cat.

Why does this relate to people being "crazy?" I'm not sure. I'm fairly certain that dolls are kind of theraputic for mentally ill people anyway, so I don't think people with mental illnesses should be alarmed that they have dolls that they talk to. I use to see a woman at a nursing home who had a doll she would hold. I heard it helped her cope a lot. She'd carry it around and talk to it like it was a real baby. Maybe that was what she needed. If she hadn't been carrying it around, she would still have had all her other problems, so why worry about it?

I think it's normal to talk to your dolls a little bit. That's part of playing, isn't it? We all did it as kids, and as adults, we do talk to all our major appliances when they screw us over.

As for people on this forum believing their dolls have souls, they're not "crazy" they just believe things that I don't. Maybe they're creative, maybe they're religious, maybe they just feel connected to the material world.

My honest opinion is that it's a combination of the three things. They're creative, religious, and they feel connected to their material posessions.

 

Well since you don't actually know what MY beliefs are, I'll explain
I believe in one god. He created us. When we were created he gave
us life..our life is our soul. BUT...that soul does NOT leave our body
and travel to hell or heaven. I do not believe in ghosts...what people
consider ghosts are something else entirely, but such topics have no
place on a doll forum.

Science will never be able to prove or disprove what a soul is/means
or wether their idea/societies idea of soul exists. But science can't
prove a lot of things....it doesn't mean that much in the end.
Science didn't create us.

On another note: I CAN tell people they are a soul. Just like
you feel you CAN tell me what I can't say. Because as far
as you (and most on here arguing about it) believe it's merely
my/an opinion. So as far as opinions go I can think what I want
and can say what I want as well...and you are allowed to do
the same. I don't agree with your opinions either, but you have
the right to express them.
But, if you feel the need to argue more, about who has more
or less right to state an opinion based on what is thought to be
facts or nonsense because science hasn't proved it...then I
suppose I'll be back to state the obvious...again.

I CANNOT believe that this thread is being allowed to stay
open STILL. It is no longer OT, clearly and all it's doing
is breeding hostility. What's the actual point to it?

I only came back here to edit my original post (where I
called my Gran crazy ) only to find myself being
attacked.

 

I don't think you're being attacked, I think you're being taken to task to defend your opinion, just as you've taken me to task to defend my lack of religious beliefs, which I might say I've earned.

I was raised in the American South. When I got to college, it just slowly came together for me. I don't believe in one powerful god or many gods or anything of the like. I believe the fact that I'm sitting here talking to you is a total fluke.

You're completely entitled to your opinion. I've enjoyed the discussion so far. I'm sorry if you feel you've been singled out, I'm not sure how that happened. I think there are only two atheists here, and I don't think either of us set out to be intolerant of your views. We just don't share them, and when somebody tells me that I have a soul, I feel like I have to explain my opinion to the contrary.

I just came back here today to see if anyone had replied to me, I've been caught up in my doll shopping and my Christmas shopping.

Edit: By the way, as a Mad Scientist, I have to say, science can explain a lot. It doesn't create much, but it does come up with some interesting things some times.

One thing I've noticed in my short time here at the Den of Angels is that for the most part, people in the discussion threads don't address each other directly, they just come in, state their opinions, and never come back to that thread. Part of what I've liked about this thread is that there are so many people talking directly to each other about how they feel about people who talk to their dolls or whether religion applies to dolls. I find this kind of discussion encouraging.

Edit: Removed holiday related information.

 

Sorry for my use of the word attacked lol, clearly others have
gotten the brunt of it far worse than me XD I only wanted to
explain why I was here (again).
Anyhow, I understand where you are coming from and respect
your opinion, and I agree that while this thread has been volatile
it is also very different from other threads. I'm just surprised that
it's been allowed to continue considering the content. But np.
And I probably shouldn't say this in here (please don't comment on it..)
but while my beliefs are Christian based neither me nor my religion
celebrates Christmas. But thank you for the kind words and thought!!

 

No no no I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I was just saying that I don't think it's right to push your beliefs onto anyone. I just personally don't believe in them. In no way what so ever did I mean to upset you, and I tried my best not to sound upset, because in all honesty I wasn't. I don't mind if other people believe differently than me ^_^ ! It makes the world more exciting. Whatever you have to do to get yourself through another day is fine by me!

 

This thread is an awesome read, but to explain myself fully I could probably write my college thesis on it, so I'll keep it simple.

As I've mentioned before in another thread somewhere, I like to roleplay/write with my friends. Hence, I have a lot of experience with people who have a sort of 'psychosis' about it. Sure, they don't actually BELIEVE it's real, but they take it much, MUCH too seriously - friends have started hating each other (and still do, as far as I know), people have wanted to kill themselves, people have thrown up, and couples have broken up over things ROLE PLAYING CHARACTERS DID. Just to name a few.

Now, I admit this isn't actually believing it to be real - that is most definitely, undeniably psychotic. But it is still harmful to oneself and others. Imaginary characters should in NO WAY affect someone that much, EVER. Sadly, I see it much too often for my liking or comfort, and I've all but dropped out of roleplaying because of it.

The same applies to dolls - if someone says something rude about a doll, even out of simple ignorance and not malice, and the owner goes away in tears because they can't believe someone would say something like that to their boy/girl/kid/what-have-you, that's taking it a little too far, in my opinion.

I'm not really going to touch on the souls thing. The general consensus seems to be 1) the people who believe their doll actually has a soul, 2) the ones who believe in a 'doll soul' which is more like believing in projected human energy, like a kind of feng shui, and 3) those who don't believe in it at all. That's just to summarize, and I'm not going to give my opinion on any of those views.

Anyway, that's just my bit. Don't take offense.

 

I would say that as long as you realize that you PLAY with dolls, it's totally fine to talk to them, to have them "respond", to think that they have thoughts and feelings and that's not crossing the line to psychosis.

The border line for me would start where a person can no longer control the outcome of such play (say, when a doll is becoming an independent thinking and acting identity in their mind and they no longer feel that they put certain feelings and thought into a doll, but the doll is doing that on its own) and when they're no longer able to stop playing, either unwilling to, or feeling forced to continue in their imaginary reality.

 

This is a fabulously interesting and well-written post. I loved reading it. Bravo!.

 

Well, I personally do not think my dolls have souls or are real entities that I should treat as if they were humans. However, I have affections for my dolls and treat them with kindness and tenderness. Because to me; they are like precious pieces of my soul. They do not have souls; but by me giving them such love and affection, I believe part of my soul is "housed" in them.

But the deffinition of a soul is all in the eye of the beholder. I've always viewed a soul as a spiritual part of you where the deepest parts of your faith, hope, aspirations, personality, and emotions reside. So by saying a part of my soul is inside of my dolls, I mean it in a way that a part of my deep emotions and part of my personaity are also a part of them.

I made their personalities and they made part of mine. It does not mean they have feelings. But when someone hurts my doll, it hurts me. If someone says something mean about my doll, it is harmful to me. This direct stream of emotion between me and an inanimate object forms a deep bond that I can only describe as a branch off of my soul.

I have felt this way about things that are precious to me since I was a little girl. The stuffed animals I had for 15 years were so worn out with love and affection. And when I lost one, it felt like a piece of my past- a piece of me- was lost as well. And you can't get that piece back.

I don't think it makes you crazy. It just means you have a higher value on something than another person. Or it means that you cherish it more than they do. Everyone constantly judging each other leads to labels and accusations like "crazy". There is a HUGE line between crazy and imaginitave; and my deffinition of those two are probably way different then the next person's. So I think it's best to rate someone by the value they hold on something; instead of classifying them into a category where they might not belong.

 

Please don't feel that your Dolly Debate thread was a stupid venture - this has been a pretty vibrant and lively discussion. The Debate subforum is different than the rest of the forum in that lengthy and opinionated posts are encouraged and topicness is far more broad as long as there is some tangential connection back to abjd. This thread has been great for all that!

Posters need to realize that "debate" usually consists of intelligent back-and-forth "arguing" in which they can and will be called to defend their words.

 

I have no problem with doll owners believing whatever they want to believe. In my limited time in BJD community I noticed it is very tolerant of any "weirdness" (I use this term loosely and without any intention to offend). I am one of those people who talks to their electronic devices and sometimes even books, and I have no doubt that when I get my girl I'll talk to her as well, and project a personality onto her that I invented.

What I do have a problem with, though, is the people who believe dolls have souls/characters/etc and then going on crusades professing what should and shouldn't be done to them by other owners. According to such believers scar mods are inhumane, BDSM photosessions are abusive and selling your doll is a crime worse than child abandonement... It maybe harmless but every time I see comments like this I feel like someone peed in my mouth >_< I feel like if more supernaturally-minded people who believe in dollie souls are not subjected to any scorn/insults/accusations, more pragmatic and materialistic owners should be allowed the same courtesy.

 

I feel a strong bond with my dolls because they are handmade and take effort on my part to become objects of desire. There's a lot of human involvement going on here from the artist creating the doll to me realising a doll's potential. I find BJDs surprising in the fact they can look so alive, as if on the verge of becoming sentient. It is this that makes me give my dolls personalities and histories.

I love how people approach their dolls on a more deeper level. I do believe this should be a highly personal experience that should not be open to debate by anyone else. This also goes with selling dolls, modding, etc. It's not a person's business on how another should treat a doll. If someone went on at me on how I treat my dolls, I would consider them mentally ill.

 

Well there are two very different sides to this. I take my dolls almost anywhere I go. Luna is almost always stowing away in my pockets or I have her nestled safely in my arms. It's just become who I am. Without these I feel like a different person. I'm not saying Luna talks to me about what I want for dinner or if I want to see a movie but I have had times when I've needed someone to confide in or hold close to feel comfortable and my dolls are it.
I think of my dolls as being alive in the sense that they are there for me and comfort me like any of my living friends. Whether they have a soul or not I don't know but I'm not gonna say they don't cause if trees and rocks have souls maybe they do too.
My therapist has told me in the past that if you believe they are real or are talking to you then thats a serious problem. I think she's crazy for telling people their beliefs are wrong but who knows.
As far as I'm concerned though nobody should have the right to tell you you're crazy for believing they are real. If you do then as long as you don't listen to them if they say to kill anyone you're fine. Lol.