Is it OK to... ? (Approval or permission-seeking and the community.)

Where do you feel the question itself comes from?* Is it a desire to be accepted by one's peers? To find out what might shock them? Insecurity with one's own wishes or choices and/or a need for reassurance?
Being the person who started one of those debate threads... I can honestly say that I wasn't looking for validation or acceptance, but was honestly curious about responses. But, meh.

I do think there's a lot of people seeking validation in the hobby. It's incredibly artistic, and artists are notorious for craving validation in some way or another (yes, I do, too).

Is there anything like this that you have wondered about personally?
Sometimes. Mostly, I don't care what other people think of me or my dolls, but I can't help but want to know what and where people draw the line on. I find people in general to be rather fascinating.

Do you personally go with the "to each his own, it's your doll, do what you want with it" theory? If so, are there any exceptions to that? (Beyond the things noted below, or things that are outright illegal.)
Definitely. None of us want someone to judge us or our dolls, and I give everyone the same courtesy I expect in return. If someone wants to put their doll in a sock dress, with a sharpie face-up, take pictures of it with a messy background and blurry/over-exposed/grainy, then that's fine with me. Whatever makes them happy. I won't look at it, but if that makes them happy, who am I to judge?

 

Maybe they want to test the waters with an "Is it OK to..." thread to not start anything? I remember a couple of years ago, someone started a thread about the whole gay/yaoi/cross dressing doll thing that seemed to be everywhere, and wanted to ask others on how they felt about it. Eventually, I seem to remember it came down to some kind of "elitist" thing (I mean they didn't say there were elitists, but from what's going on now with the whole 'elitist' issue, they seem pretty similar). So when people thought that whole phenomenon was overrated and overused, people got overly upset about it. I wonder if this thread is still somewhere in the depths of time (as I said, it was a few years ago)?

And I agree that it might be an age thing - though we all know that not every 18-25yr-old is going to post one; however, I also think we're stretching how deep the meanings of them are. When we're young (like me) people know we seek acceptance, but I don't think we ever stop.

Now that I think about it (since I did post here before), I think it's probably a matter of fear. There's the whole 'elitist' rumor going around, and I think a lot of relatively new members may feel intimidated by experienced members, because they're knowledgeable, and maybe they think that because they might have a lot of dolls that they're somehow superior? Maybe they feel that owners who seem superior (in their eyes) will think that their lack of knowledge is laughable? And I get how they'd feel that way - if you entered high school, you probably felt somewhat intimidated by the students already there.

I think the OPs use these threads to not let anyone see that they're novices, or just don't know. Saying that you modded a head, to many, holds a different value than saying you modded a limited head. Sure, I may not like the idea (and personally, I don't) but that doesn't mean I'm not going to like you(general) because you did it. Sure, I may be peeved that you might have done a very poor job (imo), but if any kind of mod attempt is done well (again, imo), it earns my approval - limited or not.

I think the OPs are trying to locate the unwritten code of conduct among BJD hobbyists so they don't commit some 'horrific' faux pas and get ostracized for it - like if they did mod a limited head, and there was an outcry of "OMG - how could you do something like that?!" No one wants to cause any big issues, so I think that's why most people ask.

But, to go back to my previous post, I have been getting a little sick of them. I mean, I could understand someone asking if something was a smart decision (so they didn't majorly mess up a $500 doll), and seeking advice about how to do it. But some of the topics mentioned in the "Is it OK to..." threads are just begging, in my opinion, for someone to shout "It's your doll; do whatever you want with it." And really, it only takes one person to say that, and I don't have to post another version of that for the 100th time.

 

Because I have the social cues of a brick in text based form - There's an elitist rumor happening?

Surely, though, going by some of the responses in this thread, making an 'Is it okay to-' is certainly a bit of a faux pas. What I believe is we should have a forum that is dedicated to this sort of questioning, or instead of the 'Is it okay to-" have a "Would you, personally, do - " Then have people respond with a why/why not. That way, the writer is feeling the waters, getting opinions, and maybe even seeing the results of people who have done it before. ("Why yes, in fact I have! It's here: [link]")

To be honest, I think this forum could benefit with splitting the 'incoming doll' forum into two - the Waiting Rooms in one, and Doll Concepts in another. At the moment, any brainstorming and idea-mongering that could occurr in the incoming doll forum is being lost under the much more active and populous waiting rooms.

 

Yes, there does seem to be at the moment; it happens on a periodic basis, in my experience. People get riled up over something, panties get twisted, and then the accusations of "elitist!!" start flying around for a bit - usually until the mods get sufficiently annoyed to slap down the worst offenders and lock a few threads, whereupon it all simmers down again until the next time.

It mostly seems to be happening over Soom dolls at the moment, from what I can see; it reared its ugly head in a couple of Volks threads for a while (*rolls eyes in boredom*) but got dropped thankfully quickly. Last time around I think it was over Bobobie and Chinese dolls in general. God only knows what it'll be next time.

It comes and goes, and I imagine it must get pretty confusing to any poor newbies coming into the hobby just in time to cop a faceful of it, so it doesn't surprise me that we seem to get more "Is it OK..." threads started at those times.

 

A lot of those threads seem to start with closed-minded questions and the OP never posts again because they receive a bunch of responses disagreeing with them, most of them along the lines of "it's their doll, they can do what they want." I don't think it's approval-seeking so much as underexposure to different walks of life and varying cultures. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Sometimes it's just a way to get the discussion started and not really the OP asking for group approval, but rather individual responses.

 

As of now, and it irks me to no avail, there's an elitist rumor in full force. As soon as someone says (politely) that something isn't their cup of tea, someone else has to go and say that because someone doesn't want to do X to their doll, that there are people who are trying to be elitists. And then there's tons of us who have to go in and *try* to say nothing's going on.

Sure, there are some people who actually do fit the definition of elitist - but those are probably 1% of all BJD owners. And yeah, sometimes things get *very* intense, and the Mods have to either issue warnings or lock threads in tandem with banning some members either temporarily or permanently. If you search some of the debate threads that have been locked (the one about sock dresses comes to mind), you'll see a lot of members trying to clear up any misconceptions.

It was just from what I've remembered in the thread from a few years ago, and compared it to the cries of 'elitist' going on, the atmosphere seemed similar. As I said in my post before, that second thread was a couple of years ago, and I meant to reference it to sort of suggest that the 'elitist' issue isn't anything new.

And I like your idea of having a "Would you, personally, do..." thread. Maybe there will be a lot more of those, now? A lot of the things I question have to do with what will be aesthetically pleasing. I don't ask if it's ok to do something; I have asked to see certain things in the Picture Requests to see if they'll jive with my ideas of aesthetics. One I can remember is about boy dolls with unglossed lips that I found after I had wondered about it.

 

I think the cries of 'elitist!' definitely started with that thread about Chinese companies. And frankly, I'm kinda sick of the whole "Oh, you don't like X (low priced) company's sculpts? ELITIST."

This apologetic way of talking is all over the board- and even I do it. People don't want to make a definitive answer in case it gets someone super upset and it gets out of hand quickly. This could be why it's difficult to get a properly interesting debate going, as someone forgets that no one's personally attacking another person and/or someone can't back their opinion up and gets upset when we don't accept "Because I said so!"

 

Dang. I totally didn't see this until it was pointed out for me. I could have totally gone on in blissful ignorance of it all, but I much prefer to see the truth of the matter, not the fairy tale.

It's a shame that people can't be accepting of the fact that others can have different opinions to themselves and still be good people.

 

Usually it's not elitism -- or at least I don't think it is. Often it's miscommunication -- to be fair there are times when people will phrase opinions in ways that are easily misconstrued. Then combine that with people who tend to jump to the worst possible conclusions and everything goes up in flames. Of course sometimes things go up in flames anyway even when everybody was really playing very nicely, and you're left standing there scratching your head wondering what the hell happened.

Which almost never happens, and the most recent examples that come to my mind (it was in a debate thread about hybrid dolls of all things) where so out there it was just laughable.

 

I've read only 2 first pages so please forgive me if I would repeat somebody.
Insecurity in their own choices? Yes.
Wanting to be popular/trendy/accepted by community? Yes.
Simply wanting to talk about their feelings? Yes.

But I see also another reason. We know that the DoA is a kind of artifical environment where everybody should be nice and give no crit. Moderators struggle to keep it that way. Other places are not that friendly, I mean BJD places, local forums, communities etc. There IS some rough critics, sometimes it's rather blunt, e.g.: "I hate this person because she plays with her dolls this way! I think she has some sort of mental illness or just is a loser and compensates for the luck of private life", or "Look at those dolls! Their faceups are horrible, their handsewn clothes are of poor quality" etc. etc. Or even: "She posts photos of her dolls too often, it's impudent!"
So, people with hurt feelings go to DoA and ask, is it OK to do amateur faceup or to play their dolls in a certain way, just simply wanting to hear: "Yes, it's OK, you may do this". A sort of therapy))))

I asked this kind of question only once, not here, because I know the answer, but on the local forum. The question was: "Did I owe something to the community?" This really bothered me because I felt pressure, so I decided to bring the question to the attention. I wanted to have a place to point to each time somebody would tell me I owe him/her something.
So, it's a pure community justification of a certain behavior in my case.

Being in our kindest-ever-possible community for some time helps to build a thick skin))

I'm all for creativity, but some things I just can't stand, e.g. pedophilia, vertical incest. So such themes, as sex, gore, rape, self-mutilation etc. should have their place and proper warnings. And everything would be fine.

 

A lot of the more heated threads that start with the "Is it ok to.....?" and place a moral or ethical judgement on DOLL OWNING, of all things, usually also start with "I keep seeing this around the community.." as opposed to "I do this with my doll and was wondering...." I always see those posts as the OP having a bone to pick with whatever the issue at hand is and using the thread as a validation of their anti-whatever feelings in the only way they can publicly on DoA. They can't post something negative in the gallery thread or whatever that they saw, but they can go post a vaguely worded debate thread to try and feel morally superior.

It always makes me roll my eyes, though I do acknowledge my own failing at being unable to stay quiet in those threads.

These threads really do boil down into what are essentially self esteem boosters (or attempted self esteem boosters) for the OP, whether they can get on their soapbox about something they dislike, want someone to hold their hand and tell them it's fine to have (insert whatever is being discussed as ok to exist here), or are looking for ways to fit into the community and feel better about their interactions.

 

^^I might have overlooked this, but as I was reading the posts before it, I had vaguely wondered if there's a small percentage of people who do ask just to bash others.

It'll sound super cliche to everyone when I ask "Why can't we all just get along?"

I mean we're DOLL COLLECTORS. We're in no way celebrities equal to Paris Hilton, or Conan O'Brien. We've all probably had an instance where we've had a hard time with people who don't understand why we like these dolls, we've had issues, we've had questioning stares. I know it's probably a given that some kind of social hierarchy *tries* to develop in every subculture, but no one really has a right to judge others in this hobby.

We can only do what we can do. If you break your back to get your doll, and I didn't have to (which is not the case, I promise) don't go crying that I'm not a "true" doll owner because I didn't suffer to get my doll.

And vise versa: if I break my back to get my doll, and I end up sewing my doll's outfits rather than buying them, and I take pride in the face up I did even though I didn't do a wonderful job - don't look down on me because I couldn't afford expensive, perfect face ups or exclusively DollHeart outfits.

The only thing that I believe ANY hobbyist should be concerned about is if the love is there. You have to tell yourself (and once won't be enough) that you don't have to go to a fancy face up artist whose work you don't care for. You don't have to make your photos look like they were expertly done - Lord knows how many times I've tried and failed at that one! You don't have to get it "right" the first try or the tenth try. As long as you feel good about what you have and what you've done, that's what matters.

That is to say, others might not express the same affection or find what you did as great as you do, but that's normal. I'm sure everyone has seen face-ups, or outfits, or wigs (professionally done, or not) that we've never cared for. I've seen them, but it's really none of my business to go to someone and say "Hey - I'd never be into a doll like that, but..." That probably wouldn't go over well with them (I know if someone started it off that way while discussing my doll, I'd get a little miffed.) Just like everyone is different, so is every doll. I don't have to like what you like, but I wouldn't put down your ideas because of that.

But back to asking these questions because the asker's intent was to just make fun of others. If this is true, then these people are cowards. These people would rather cause a disturbance "in the force", and try to get individuals to rally around to blindly* attack others because the OP wants to make people feel bad. What's worse is that other posters who may say they don't like something don't know they're being used for bad things.

In this case, I'm thankful people say the generic "To each his own" message. It takes the rallying power away from a person whose intent was to harm.

*Blindly, as in people not knowing that their opinions are actually aimed to hurt people, rather than as benign opinions.

 

This is a good question since it seems like so many threads do start out that way.

Without personally knowing anyone who starts threads like this, I can only speculate about why they do it but my instinct is that it's really more of a semantics issue than anything else. I don't think that people are really seeking permission to do something because most people do whatever they want to despite advice to the contrary (that applies to all aspects of our lives, not just doll collecting!) and I think it's really just a way to get a discussion going about how community members feel about something and whether or not they would do it themselves.

I don't think it's the best way to start a discussion since it comes across to me as tentative and hesitant but I do think it's important to keep in mind that not everyone here is a natural-born writer and we all express ourselves differently.

For myself, I am not going to ask anyone's permission or seek approval from the community if there is something I want to do with my dolls. They exist to make ME happy, after all!

 

While some of these validation seekers might be young, I'm always disturbed by the number of adults I meet who need validation, approval and reinforcement for virtually any decision they make in their life.

Having never experienced a this sort of mindset, I can't say I understand it.

 

I know I'm guilty of posting one (maybe more, I don't remember) of the "Is it okay...' type questions, though not phrased that way. Several people have pointed out the usual peer approval or testing the community values thing, but I'd like to put something else out if I may... admittedly having skimmed the middle pages, but I don't think I saw it listed.

Some of the posts (at least I know mine, so there are probably others) are in no way seeking general approval of the community but rather the opinions of fellow collectors. It's interesting to know where people stand on different issues and why, and it allows one to expand their understanding of the hobby and the people we interact with. Most of the discussions start out this way: "I think X and this is why." The "why" is always the most interesting part. Maybe 20 people follow the motto "you can do whatever you want with your doll," but each person may have a very different reason for subscribing to this beliefe.

My two cents, anyway, for whatever it's worth.

 

The point I will make was briefly made in a few posts already, but I will repeat it in my own words because I believe I can say it more clearly ^_^

I think the "Is it OK..?" threads are just suffering from poor word choice, stemming from seeing similar titles and believing its the norm (which it kinda is, in its own way).

I had a friend who took several 'Women's Studies' classes and she made a point to me that has always stuck with me:
Girls almost always being sentences weakly...by saying "I think..." even when they KNOW they have the right answer. Example: What is 2+2? And a girl answers "I think it is 4" even though she knows it is four.

I think we've been conditioned to be meek and timid. "Is it Ok ...?" is a weak beginning of a topic. (And I'm not trying to say we're all a bunch of girls.) But if the topic begins "Why do you cross dress your doll?" It comes off as a bit aggressive, perhaps a bit demanding. "Is it OK...?" does not.

 

Interesting topic! I would guess that some of the need for approval in these permission-seeking threads stems from the fact that women, especially young women, face a lot of societal pressure to please others. The stereotype is that girls are sensitive and caring, and if she hurts someone's feelings, she's a tactless b**** (but if a guy does the same thing, he's "just being a guy.") Obviously these old-fashioned stereotypes about gender roles don't affect everyone equally. But in a hobby populated mainly by women, they're bound to come into play for some people.

For example: I had dinner last weekend with a woman who was so concerned for my feelings that she agreed to go out for Indian food even though she doesn't like it. Instead of telling me that and suggesting someplace we would both like, she ate before she came and then picked at her dinner while I was devouring my curry. I suspect she would be the kind of person who would post asking if it was okay to mod her doll, for fear that she might be making someone else uncomfortable or angry with an "inappropriate" mod.

 

I guess it's just a shift of focus. I mean every time when somebody become a part of the small community which is not totally accepted by society in general (not everyone around tells you "expensive dolls is the best hobby for a girl") he is trying to get an approval of his behavior and decisions by comrades in many ways, coz when he become a part of some community he kinda looses a part of approval giving by society. And if he depends on society's opinion he'll depend on this small community's opinion too.