Rule Update Mirodoll banned from DoA | updates in post #2 for September 2018

I didn't mean you did anything of the sort. I'm sorry to have confused you with my unclear wording. The "Dollshe Rhythmos" part refers to 70cm male body only.

 

I'm a bit confused.... so the company is banned but some of the previous existing sculpts are not? Some photos may be removed that are older and therefore those are also banned? I'm just trying to understand what is okay to post or not to post. No photos of Mirodolls anymore or dolls that are already in homes are okay except for a newer released and now removed female body? I'm so confused at this point about what is happening here exactly. I would hate for someone to post a photo of a doll that was recommended to them here, then find themselves as a user banned..... that would be very, very terrible.

I'm not really upset or anything but I do know that a whole lot of us have found friends from the hobby or our dolls are transitional objects which hold a lot of emotions. I also love that artists keep working and it's great when someone can make something and share it with everyone else an hopefully have a bit of extra funds come to them from their efforts. This is all very, very confusing. As I understand, there are some sculpts that are banned from certain companies when an error of judgement happened. So is that what the spoiler list is for?

 

@mollym well here's how it stands: the five bodies/dolls listed in the post are banned from DoA, as well as all future releases from Mirodoll*. (Older photos featuring those five banned dolls may be removed. Users would of course not get in trouble for having posted those pics at the time. As for if someone accidentally posts one in the future, they would likely have their photo removed and be informed of their mistake, rather than banned. I think. o-o) All other heads and bodies made by Mirodoll are fine to post on DoA.

*This all-future-dolls part could change because, as stated in the OP post, "The mod team is willing to rescind Mirodoll's ban in the future, as long as certain criteria are met" (in other words Mirodoll would no longer be banned, just those handful of dolls.) By looking into the sculpt's origins and removing the copied bodies from sale, it appears they are currently trying to meet that criteria, so...we'll see.

 

Saddened by this but at least Mirodoll have immediately gone mea culpa when called out I suppose... Not that they'd have been likely to do so without any prompting.

I admit that on several levels I'm rather annoyed by the handling of the situation, I'll not attempt to weigh in on the defense/indefensible issue itself since Mirodoll have held up their hands and sort-of apologised... But, well suffice it to say that the years-long lack of a decision on this means that I now effectively own a recast. One that, due to the info on DOA at the time, was purchased from what I'd been led to believe was a reputable company. I'm even more annoyed with myself since I didn't spot the similarities and the Dollstown 18F body has been on my 'to buy' list forever. However, since I managed to dig up a physical side-by-side shot I'm slightly relieved to see that people who actually had both bodies in hand at a doll meet were none the wiser too.

I do feel it's more than a little disengenuous to still be taking their ad money whilst proclaiming about this issue to all and sundry though!

 

Yes, and I would like a definite decision because I do like their Orlando sculpt. Maybe I can get an answer here though. This banning is a result of similar bodies. The head sculpts are not in question? I also recall many people saying that "no one would bother to recast a Miro". Is that the head or bodies? I don't get this. I obviously have gotten into an extremely expensive and very dodgy hobby. So much for "Art".

 

I'm not convinced Miro's statement is an admission of guilt more so it's an attempt at damage limitation. A lot of companies with half a brain would do this just to avoid controversy. it's easier to just say "sorry!" and remove the product than go through the huge hassle of proving your innocence. It's the simpler option. They know DOA is the biggest community and they know DOA could break them, so damage limitation is their best option here.
I can also quite believe they didn't realize because why would they? you hire someone, you trust them and if you don't know much about 3d modelling you just assume they're doing it right.

But I agree with what someone else said. At what point does reference become tracing? Where is the line between inspiration and direct plagiarism? Do we have solid proof these things are actually recast or 3d scanned or were they molded from scratch using references perhaps, in places, a little too closely?
I also don't quite understand why you would take the basic body shape and copy that, but not also take some of the engineering to make a better body. I mean, so many of their sculpts have absolutely crap joints and really amateur engineering. If you're gonna copy something to make a better product, why wouldn't you look at the jointing systems too?
(Does the new 1/4 body have a better jointing system and one that's closer to the iple ones? Because the 70cm body sure as heck doesn't)

Still this does set a precedent and means a great number of other bodies need to suddenly be looked at with more scrutiny.

It's really sad though, because it removes a budget option often suggested to newbies. It also means that suddenly there's a lot more doubt for everyone. Can we trust recommendations? Just because people say they're legit, are they really? Who else has been doing this and flying under the radar? Eugh. Terrible, just terrible.

 

Oh my bad, my part must’ve only been the “hideously misshapen bodies” quote.

Anyway, I have full faith that going forward, Miro will clean themselves up, just like Dollzone, Dollmore and any other company approved on this website and be in good standing again.

 

I think this proves the vital need for progress pictures. As a new sculptor, I’m gonna photograph every step of my body sculpting, as with the heads, from when it’s merely a masking tape covered core. Human bodies do come in limited configurations, especially when aiming for a certain aesthetic, however the recast issue has been well known for ages and every company and sculptor should know that these back up photos/3D files in various stages should be kept.

I’ll admit, I liked Mirodoll for being cheap and a different aesthetic to Resinsoul, but I agree with those who say that putting it down to coincidence is not enough in these cases. I’ve not studied every bjd body out there, there’s a chance my sculpt will look similar to something that already exists, but there will be photos available to prove hand sculpting and I would never work from another bjd as reference - human references are better. If the bodies do line up too well, then the verdict may be damning: even the same artist won’t get exactly the same proportions unless they take measurements with calipers etc. Even an ‘inspired’ cast won’t match the inspiration 95%+ unless measurements were taken: in which case it is a copy.

Now, as it seems they’re blaming a sculptor, the case will inevitably be reviewed by mods. If the moderators decide to allow them again, I’ve no doubt it’ll be under scrutiny that the future sculpts be evidenced during creation.

It’s a shame for those of us that own them, there will be a tarnished name even on the older sculpts when they were fully allowed. It does say something that at least they’ve admitted it and removed them from sale but whether or not a second chance will be allowed is entirely down to the moderators.

The worry is also where we draw the line with other similar sculpts: people spend a lot of money on these, and like to share them here. If other ($400+) bodies face bans too, there’s a serious concern about how that affects collectors who deliberately didn’t buy recasts but are still tarnished or have dolls banned from sharing.

In short, I’m in two minds... I defer to mods on this one.

 

I’d to clarify that as far as I am concerned, my issue isn’t with banning companies that have copied other people’s works. Obviously, not. I don’t think most who expressed discontent was trying to justify Mirodoll. Or defend them.

But they’re not the only ones whose bodies or sculpts line up “almost perfectly” with someone else’s and I feel like if future investigations of others will be handled in the same “guilty until proven innocent” manner, we are going to end with lots of banned companies and/or sculpts. Lots of confusion and problems if those same companies prove themselves and get reinstated.

I don’t think overlapping pictures for comparison and using it as proof of copying is substantial evidence, but it does serve as a guide to open the discussion of whether or not it’s a copy.

But...

What’s going to happen when people who have always suspected Company A from copying Company B bring up their overlapped pictures to the mods and ask for equal investigation and punishment of Company A?

If that and a long deliberation is all it takes to ban something, is there going to be a doll left that’s on topic while companies scramble to get evidence of their authenticity? What happens to the community who suddenly finds their beloved legit dolls turned out to be no better than recasts? My worry is for the collectors who own this brand, who trusted they were an affordable alternative for hybrids/full dolls, as recommended by users on DoA and advertisements found on DoA.

That’s why I say things like this need to be handled better. There needs to be more communication before action.

Throwing people who collect Mirodoll bodies/dolls into turmoil, then asking the company to meet criteria for reinstatement seems like a backward and messy route.

I really hope all further reports of a suspected copying/recast incident is handled a lot better.

 

And a lateral question pops up. CoA's are for the head sculpt only?

 

@dollsoflace , I think that this can happen to any company, not just Mirodoll. As the Mods stated in the first post, if any member wants to question any company's sculpt, they can post something in the Ask the Mods forum. And it will be reviewed. Some years ago, we also questioned Ariadoll, and then Ariadoll merged with Switch, and the body in question is still being sold there. Nothing has been done, and we who reported learns to live with it. O.o It's sad for Mirodoll owners, yes, but if Mirodoll doesn't come forward with evidences of legitimate sculpting processes, doesn't it mean that the blame should be put on Mirodoll instead of DoA? If they can prove that their designs are original then the owners won't have to go into "turmoil"... Why not ask Mirodoll for evidences instead of posting on DoA and trying to change the Mods' decision? I don't think it will change anything unless Mirodoll comes forward to clear things... As for other companies, if any other designs can be questioned, then go for it. The Mods have stated that anyone can do it to any company, of course with proofs.

 

Yea, I'm also worried there will be a guilty-by-association effect on both the Mirodoll bodies that are still allowed and the artist dolls that used Mirodoll as a casting service. I have a very old doll that is allowed on DOA but was made by an artist that had a "too closely inspired by another company's sculpt" scandal on a different doll that was made almost a decade after mine and have routinely been harassed on Facebook for owning her. Like there have been multiple times I've had total strangers pick her out of the background of pictures that weren't even of my dolls and start posting or sending me really nasty messages calling me a criminal for purchasing from that artist and demanding that I destroy my doll and provide them with proof that I had destroyed it even though the sculpt I have was closely reviewed and cleared by DOA when the scandal hit and was purchased years before there were any issues with the artist. I even had one girl try to get me banned from a local doll group because she knew I owned this doll even though by that point I had deleted all of the pictures with her in it/started hiding the fact that I own her and even though that group was using DOA's standards for which dolls were allowed (she didn't succeed at kicking me out but I left anyways because I didn't want to deal with the drama). It got to the point where I ended up moving the doll to my room at my parents house in another state so she doesn't accidentally get in anyone's pictures or seen by anyone, which is sort of sad especially since she's still considered on topic here. There are plenty of people out there who will go after someone for owning a doll by an artist/company that has had issues regardless of if that particular doll has been investigated and cleared, and it's a bit worrying because no matter what the resolution ends up being for Mirodoll, I'm sure these people will now be coming out of the woodwork for years to come.

 

This is my worry. That I’m going to be harassaed or sneered at because I own them. I was even tempted to take my hybrids off my profile until I can get new bodies for them. :’( (I had planned new bodies for them anyway, just not so soon. One of mine can’t even attempt to stand because he has one leg longer than the other)

 

Yea, ultimately I think I'm going to end up buying different bodies for my hybrids even though nothing I have is on the banned list because people are awful and I don't want to have to deal with that again. Guess I could pick up a couple of the not-banned Mirodoll heads to go with the bodies and they can join my other disgraced-by-association doll in exile at my parents place.

 

Gosh, this is so incredibly disappointing. I bought an Apollo head from them a year ago (I think I was mistakenly sent a Hector head instead, but it was like 30 bucks on sale so I can't really complain). I had hoped to purchase more from them to practice heavy modding because of their cheap price point.

I guess I can only reiterate what some people have said before: I totally understand and agree with this ban -- they seem like copies. I do hope that they were not singled out because they sell cheaper dolls than other companies, and that there will be equal attention paid to companies that might do the same thing but are more well established.

It's a bummer all around. I probably won't be posting my Hector on here at all for fear of backlash. I hope it was a sincere mistake and that Miro really cleans up their act. And I sincerely hope that no one negatively talks about those who have used Miro as a casting service -- they really aren't a part of this whole thing and it'd be a shame to see them dragged into it.

 

Moderators, what are the owners of the 70cm Girl Body supposed to do with them now? I only bought the body (just months ago) after researching and making ABSOLUTELY SURE it wasn't banned here on DOA. I take owning a legit crew seriously. It feels rather late to JUST NOW ban a body that you KNEW had been under suspicion. I thought because it wasn't banned, that it had been reviewed and cleared of suspicion. I just don't know how to move forward now. Am I to trash the body and waste over $100 dollars of what I thought was a legit purchase? I can't sell it. I can't trade it. I'm not here to defend Mirodoll, as their quality sucks, but I bought the body for a modification project and now I'm at a lose despite doing the proper research.

Edit: I can see the obviousness of the recent 3d sculptor's imitations. Even the mermaid tail they were working on is a copy of another company. My issue is the 70cm has been out for 4 YEARS already, as it was made available in 2014. If it was suspicious then, why is just now being banned?​

 

Oh, you just hit one of my biggest artistic pet peeves. A computer (and the programs on it) is just another tool you can use! It does not make the art for you! If you have no skill, there's no button in the program you're using that will create the piece for you or turn your unskilled mess into a museum worthy work. 3D printing from your own design is absolutely art, and there is absolutely no definition of art specifying that a master has to be destroyed--even for sculpting! Even in casting, most of the time the master is not destroyed. Your singular experiences do not define what is or is not considered art.

Plenty of companies use 3D sculpting to create their work these days (and as a result it may get more difficult to prove the origin of a disputed sculpt). That doesn't make them all "not artists" or "not sculptors." The sculpting programs they use are just another medium.

 

OK note the mods' words (and mods, please change the title- you're scaring people into thinking it's a FULL ban when you stated it's a partial ban)- SOME of Miro's bodies have been banned for appearing too similar to existing company dolls. Clearly Miro has some very original stuff and anything that is causing friction in this community has been removed from their sales pages, even the 70cm girl. They are back to their undisputed originals and those are FINE, folks. Hector and Apollo, Lightening and Thunder, Wind- none are being contended. Just the 70cm bodies, the new 43cm body and the new 28cm body. Don't worry about the other stuff. DO NOT TRASH your Miro stuff! $100 bucks is still $100 bucks. All but the 4 things I just mentioned are still on topic and safe.

Understand, too, that China is in the East and most of us are in the West. Believe it or not folks, mentalities ARE vastly vastly different. I had the pleasure of living in Taiwan for 2 years and the things I saw and experienced shocked me to my Western core, just as my mentalities and Western values shocked and frustrated them. Some say their removal of offending items admits to their guilt. Even the whole 'a mistake was made' by them, though, was in an effort to placate THIS forum and keep us from going completely rabid. It's the same kind of absolutely true confession you'd get from torturing someone- they had no recourse whether it was true or not. They are being bullied because of US. Maybe it's true- but if it is not, they still say it is to make us happy and keep us from doing further harm. It's not the most trustworthy confession and we all seem ready to think Miro is a criminal mastermind scheme when really, YES, from the years I and others have worked with them, they CAN be that clueless. Miro is guilty of hiring a guy who was not a sculptor but a 3D modeler who did not know dolls. They are guilty of not thoroughly checking every 43cm doll body out there for copies. So they're not totally innocent, but they're not as guilty as we seem to feel they are. My belief.

They have done what we collectively demanded and they have immediately cleaned up their act, as people say. New bodies will replace the old. The majority of Miro Doll bodies and heads (none of the heads were in question) are safe. Parade your Hectors and Apollos and Annies and Mikas- they are OK.

(shout out to @Blankqueen, girl I love you to pieces!)

 

The thing is: I’m not saying DoA mods should change their decision. ^^; I’m not asking them to reconsider because I don’t think banning anyone for copying is wrong. My problem isn’t their decision, it’s the order of things and how they went about it. And I’m not saying Mirodoll shouldn’t produce evidence or be held publicly accountable, I’m just asking why the mods couldn’t first try to talk with the company to ask them to produce their evidence or change their ways before making the decision?

“Company, we have reason to believe your body model 1,2,3,4 is a modified copy of other bodies from Company. You have X days to produce proof of originality by providing ETC. Failure to do so will result in banning your products and company from our forums as we are strictly anti-recast in any way, shape or form. We strive to support artists. We may rescind our decision to ban your products if CRITERIA is met. ETC. ETC.” <— this is something that should have happened, in my opinion, beforehand. Not after.

And then, the announcement should have been made with the final decision, having taken into account whatever they provided or complied with.

This would have saved the community a lot of confusion and stress. I mean, let’s pretend for one second that Mirodoll is able to produce evidence or admit their wrong, eliminate the copied products and publicly state they’ll do better moving forward — basically let’s say they do everything to comply with whatever the mods asked and meet the criteria again, so they can rescind the banning. Then what?

They become on topic again (except for the copied products, unless these are proven original) on the forums. That means that the strain of the current moment, which has been placed on the community, wasn’t necessary. Because through communication, the issue would have been “resolved.”

My concern is that if moving forward the mods are going to first place bans on companies that are suspected of copying, before they are given the chance to show their evidence, we are going to end up with a lot of confusion on the forums.

I’m only saying I hope the order of things could be improved for the sake of the community, not for the comfort of companies or anyone else.

 

Very well put @chalyss