Modification Ethics

There is, I belief, a huge difference between 'finished' art and art that is considered a 'half-product'.

Take screenwriting for example. Without the input of other artists a screenplay will never reach it's full potential, even though it is still a good read on its own. The input of others, however, will almost always give a different final result than what the writer envisioned. A writer in this business could of course demand that his product isn't in any way altered, but I doubt he will sell many scripts this way.

These dolls are half-products, because they are customizable. They are meant to be customizable and many companies, together with their dolls, also sell the tools to modify them. If someone in this hobby creates a doll and expects of their customers to keep it in the exact same condition as the artist envisioned, I think he/she chose the wrong market. He should've sculpted statues, or dolls that are meant to be showcased.

So, no, I don't think it is unethical to modify a doll - no matter how unorthodox or brutal the result may be. I think it is a vital part of this hobby. And speaking as both a screenwriter and a doll-artist: seeing what other people are doing with my art is excites me. Of course, not every project will turn out to be a masterpiece, but at least they had fun with it.

 

In my mind the exception would be the limited edition full-sets, altering one of them makes me think of someone buying an expensive lithograph and then drawing mustaches on the people (or whatever). Unethical, maybe not. But the other side is that should they wish to sell their modified "limited" they may not get the full value. *shrug* But then, that's just me and I don't expect anyone else to share my particular views on this or anything else.

This isn't a big deal to me either. But some brought up the idea of buying something rare with the sole intent of destroying it. And "artists" have done it before and it always comes across as crass attempt at shocking people or for attention. But maybe this hobby is too young to have its own standard of ethics, beyond the business side of things of course.

*laughs* On the screenwriting example that can be true, that the final script is improved. But the other side is "too many cooks spoiling the broth."

 

I actually don't see how it's an ethical debate. It's dolls for goodness sake. XD

But my 2-pieces of fake money here...well...I buy dolls usually because I like the sculpt close enough to the characters and the characters aren't 100% fleshed out in my head, so they finish it for me. I figure mental characters (I will not say imaginary) are going to be interpreted different per reader anyway, so I can't force everyone to see what I see.

But I have modded before. I modded my Mythdoll Little Leroi like crazy. Because he's cheap and soft and yellow. He was my practice doll, and he has the scars to prove it. He has wide eyes. He has scratches on his resin from use. He has gears. He's happy that way. He's mine.

If someone came to me and said, "Dear God, what the heck were you thinking when you did that?!" I would reply, "Do you want to see my attempt at zombie mod? It's much worse. Oh, and I had tattoos before that. They stained a little here. Hey, why are you screaming and running in terror? I have a MNF Rheia head I messed up on and cracked an eyewell with! She's got uneven eyes so I put a scar there!"

Which, by the way, I didn't plan. I love, regardless. Because her faceup and scarring turned out so perfect. I let the dolls tell me their stories. And I have fans with her because my niece at 2.5 years patted Tati's head and said, "Ohhh, she's beautiful!"

A scar faced, uneven eyed doll. I think we have a future BJD fan, guys!

I digress. My point here is, I do mods. I like scars the best and I will cut on faces. I have separated toes and fingers. I have hacked at wigs, too. I have had one person get skittish and ask why I did that, they loved their dolls as they were, and I said, "Well, I happen to like my children with flaws, I guess. Maybe it's because I have my own."

tl;dr: I think the line is for the individual to choose. Not the community.

 

i think that "its my doll i can do what i want" is suppose to be the right thing and not at all unethical. but just hearing you guys say it over and over again "its mine i can do as i please" yes its yours and yes you can do what you like, but this brings me back to elementary school it just sounds so selfish, and spoiled. so i think i would have to agree with Leenah. maybe its just me but i grew up with a Asian and European mindset(parents are eurasian) and i have been brought up to believe that you should have respect for your things. i mean if your mom saw the extreme modding you are doing to your doll wouldn't she be mad that your destroying the origin.
i think a more artistic thing to do is to learn how to make you OWN bjd.

 

On the contrary to "it's mine nyan nyan", I'm very respectful to everything else I own. I do not write in books. I keep DVDs and CDs with their cases and covers. I do not eat without a napkin. I never write or stick things on my furniture. I clean and vacuum once a month if health allows. I keep things neat and tidy.

That said, this is a customization hobby. Just like a car, a BJD is meant to have certain things done to it. It's expensive because it's meant to be modded and changed. Just because someone lacks the skill, tools, and moxie to do it, doesn't mean they should be shocked because someone else does.

 

My mom has nothing to do with my doll hobby, and no one else does either--I got involved in bjds because I love the dolls and thought it would be something I'd enjoy. The doll related decisions I make are all my own, because ultimately I know what's best for me and what will bring me the most enjoyment. I don't expect other people to necessarily play with their dolls the way I do and vise versa, so I don't feel that hobbyists can make decisions for other people. That's why I believe 'it's your doll, do what you want' is the correct answer. It would be selfish of me to dictate what I believe other people should do with the dolls they bought -- it's not my business plain and simple.

Look, you may not like it as an answer, but how else does a person put it? People aren't doing anything wrong by modding their doll, and realistically speaking, not all mods are going to turn out great. However, modding is part of the hobby. Choosing to modify a doll even if the results aren't expertly done does not necessarily indicate a lack of care or respect -- it indicates that the owner is interested in that facet of the hobby. It's not a personal insult directed at the doll community at large.

There's a difference between working off a base and making a doll from scratch. Some folks can do great mods, but aren't necessarily great at sculpting something from nothing. Really that suggestion doesn't even make sense, since these dolls are supposed to be customized! That is one of the big creative parts of the hobby that's been a huge part of it from the beginning. If people can't handle the fact that hobbyists customize their dolls, then they're in the wrong hobby.

 

Gwydion, [More OT] I believe when Jenny said "but, as long as they're not breaking the laws/rules of wherever we are, it's not for me to tell them how to control their kids." kind of underlines that yes if you are in a nice restaurant and kids are running around, they are breaking the rules and the staff will have a word with those parents about getting their kids under control or leaving the establishment. Places of business know that allowing rowdy kids/adults disturb other patrons, will upset their customers and people will get up and leave. I do agree with what you said, it is wrong for parents to let their kids run wild, and if their bad behavior is directly affecting YOU then you have the right to say something.

I think a better example would be: Say parent A is trying to get their child into the car, and the child is screaming and yelling "NO, SHUT UP!" to their parent. <-Parent A is not breaking any laws or rules, but I'm sure many onlookers are passing some judgment on Parent A and the kid. Some are probably very sympathetic to Parent A, while others think she's an idiot for letting her kid act like that. Let's say, Parent B passes by with their well behaved child and sees the commotion. Parent B thinks "I would NEVER allow my child to speak to me that way." and decides to tell her so. <-That to me is beyond rude. Parent B doesn't know Parent A. Parent A could be a single parent just having a bad day, the kid could not even be theirs. Even if that child looks like the biggest brat in the world they weren't breaking laws, or disrespecting anyone else walking by so it's no one's business to run up to them and give them a parenting lecture.

What this boils down to is that everyone will see each situation differently, and have their own opinions about what is right or acceptable for oneself. It's the same when it comes down to dolls. I totally agree with what you said...'mods have nothing to do with ethics' Everyone will make up their mind about what is right/wrong to do with their own dolls, but you cannot expect anyone to follow your 'rules', and like Parent B I think it's rude to tell someone they did something wrong because they've modded a precious OOAK LE or 'destroyed' it for their own artistic endeavor. Feel free to THINK it...but it's not your business to tell them they've done something wrong because that is your opinion. Someone standing right next to you might think the mod is the most amazing thing they've ever seen.

I've seen people mod LE's I LOVE, and basically mod the feature I love the most about the mold....thereby ruining the doll in my eyes. However, I still don't believe the person is wrong/unethical in performing this mod. In their eyes, they fixed the doll [they PAID for] to suit them. Similarly if someone bought 6 Bermanns and decided to melt them together in a giant lump and call it Mt. Bermann...while I'd be shocked that lump was once valued at over $24,000, and maybe even be appalled at the fate of those poor skinny Bermann's I wouldn't go up to them and say "What you did was UNETHICAL. Those 6 Bermann could have belonged to me!!!!" <-I didn't have the $24,000 to save them in the first place, so...you snooze you lose? Life's not fair? Pick one.

 

Perhaps a better title for this thread would be "modification aesthetics?" If you're going to apply ethics to a group then it seems there should be a group standard for what is acceptable (like doctors) but with such a diverse group as BJD collectors. . . maybe it's not possible. Business ethics, on the other hand, are pretty well entrenched and standard no matter what the hobby.

Heh, some complain that certain sculpts aren't detailed enough and they won't buy them. I guess not everyone is cut out for modifying, customizing, or enhancing their dolls. My personal ethics, if you can call them that, I wouldn't buy a limited doll (say an edition of 10 or whatever) with an eye toward customizing it. I can already tell I won't want to customize the Miguel I'm getting, he's too awesome as is. If I wanted to do much in the way of re-sculpting, customizing, or modifications I'd definitely pick a sculpt close to what I'm looking for but not so detailed that I'll feel bad for changing it.

 

We are not the judge and jury.

All of these "is it ok to.." or "is it ethical to.." or "is this going too far..." threads are geared toward judging how others enjoy their dolls. Some of you might think a rare doll is wrecked with an intense gore mod because everyone just adores that mold and would kill for it etc... However, the owner might just love it that way. How can anyone sit in the judge's seat here on DOA and tell them they are wrong? This hobby is about customizing and if someone likes a scarred up face on their doll they don't owe anything to this community to do otherwise.

Also, these are not Rembrandt paintings. We are not talking about national treasures here. I would hate to see something with historical significance destroyed but BJD dolls just are not in that category. Also, Rembrandt never painted with the intent that someone should customize his work (can you imagine?) BJD's are made to be customized. At this point in time the world is not loosing a rare piece of history with a BJD mod. The molds are still out there and the companies are alive and well and can still reproduce those dolls even if they claim they never will.

So to answer the OP's question. I will say because I just don't think it is okay for us to gather in judgment of how others enjoy their dolls.

Unspeakable pain sounds pretty extreme What I mean is, I have felt unspeakable pain in my life and there is no one in this doll community that can inflict such pain on me. My doll is resin not someone I loved and lost etc...

I believe that we as owners are not responsible for how others might feel about our doll customizations. If you try to please everyone that leads to a creative dead end. Really someone could be upset by a blond wig on an African doll or a short skirt on a SD13 etc...I strongly feel that if you see something "artistic" that upsets or offends your tastes you should try to recognize that others might not feel the same way and move on.

*Edited the above because I had a typo

 

I would have to agree with some of the other people here; BJD's are generally not finished pieces of art, and the modding equipment many sites sell should be proof of that. There more like stock art if you realy think about it. Yes, rare full sets are most likely "finished art" but I don't think our hobby has progressed far enough to truly feel the pain of a rare doll being gone for the rest of posterity. I don't think we are to the point were someone would tell there kids "... made this wonderful limited ... doll, but it has been lost to history." When that day comes, I think views will change some in the community.

I also think that modding to the point of destruction is more questionable, and depends more on culture than anything... Me having a slight animistic leaning, carelessly destroying something that may be aware could be unethical. but I'm blurry on this point... depends on how far awareness goes. As a side note: I'm not the kind to flip out about someone treating an inanimate object cruelly just because I believe in animism... If I can't prove it, there's no way I'm going to try and push everyone else into my vein of belief. I just thought it would be interesting to bring this point up on a discussion of ethics.

 

Sorry if I'm repeating anything said exactly the same in previous posts (I lost the heart to read it all 3/4 into page 2) but I'm 100% with "my money, my doll". Once somebody buys the doll, it is all theirs to play with however they see fit. They saved up (or just had) the money, they chose the make, they can smash it with a toaster if they want. It might not seem logical to everyone, but possession is 9 10ths of the law (wow, I never thought I'd actually use that phrase!) and the last 10th doesn't get a say. It doesn't matter if you wanted that doll or if it's the exact same model as your favourite doll which you hug at night. To you, it might as well be a chunk of resin (which, funnily enough, it is). You haven't held it, didn't bond with it, you have no connection to that doll at all, and thus, no say in it. It's resin. Not a person.

Now, in saying that, I do see these dolls as something more. I understand people love their own dolls and, though I only have parts of her, I love mine. It is possible to see these dolls as parts of yourself. But for tghe sake of this arguement and other peoples dolls, they are big, shiny, pretty lumps.

Really, ethics has nothing to do with dolls. Unless it's living or will severly damage someone living, I don't see ethics connected to this at all.

So boys and girls, mod your dolls, just don't kill people with them and we'll all be sweet

(Sorry this isn't better written and for any spelling mistakes. I haven't slept for about 2 days and it's 8.30 am, so my focus isn't at it's best)

~Grey

 

I'm not talking about mods in general I thought this debate was about changing the dolls competely i don't think itS wrong to mod I'm just bothered by the views that is commonly brought up "it's mine I can do what I want" just because some one has the right to do something docent mean they should. This is not about dictation it's about limitation. Think everything good in life has bonderies and people should know when they have taken away enough of something good that it becomes something bad. It's true these dolls should be costumeized but if they were made for only extreme modders then there wouldn't be so many types of molds. And what dosent make sense is why would some one buy a doll to modify it to look like a completely different doll, modifying is a skill just like sculpting so it's something that can be learned which I think can be more rewarding to say you made your own doll.

 

Even with the many sculpts that are out there, it is still possible for a person to not be able to find a doll that's just right for their purposes. Or they simply enjoy the modding process and want to make their doll very unique. Or they're really into horror mods and fantasy creations that doll companies simply don't produce themselves. There are many many reasons why someone would choose to significantly change the look of their doll. This all goes along with the fact that they're made to be customized -- some modding people do may be limited to a new faceup and some seam sanding, while someone else chooses to change entire features. Neither is right or wrong and neither falls outside of what the dolls were made for -- this is the type of hobby you're engaging in. By now it shouldn't be surprising.

The problem with limits and boundaries is that they aren't always black and white. When you're talking about business ethics, medical ethics etc it's much easier to draw lines as certain behaviors can actually cause harm. This is a hobby that involves customizable dolls and there really aren't any consequences to doing heavy duty modifications, so there aren't any hard and fast limits. Besides, who gets to decide what these limits are? By setting limits what kind of unintended consequences might there be? It's all well and good for you to decide that Jane Doe hobbyist has crossed the lines with her mods, but how would you feel if people started setting limits with what you could do with your own dolls? You say that a person can go too far and create something bad -- but what is bad and good? What's awful to one person someone else might adore.

Sculpting and modding are two different things -- people have different talents and interests. Just because someone enjoys modding doesn't mean that they'd enjoy or be good at sculpting even with practice. It may be more rewarding for you to try your hand at sculpting your own doll, but you can't speak for everybody else which is really the essence of this debate.

 

I don't think people are judging here. This is a debate, I am arguing for the sake of argument because that is a debate regardless of what my personal beliefs are. Really if we all had the same opinion then this would be under general discussion!

 

QFE. Really, your entire post is exactly how I feel.

I think we are all getting a little carried away with these 'is this ethical...?' debates, because really... they are dolls. And our behaviour is only unethical to the community, the companies and the sculptor if we would take these lumps of resin and start bashing other people's heads in for fun, or use them as a means to get our racist believes across.

Customization is not unethical. Nor is modding a very rare doll, even though there are thousands who'd have wanted to own it. Only the owner can decide what he wants to do with it, not the rest of the community.

 

Correct. What could be considered unethical if you want to go that far, but I'd rather call it poor manners are:
-Co-ownership (telling other people what they can and can't do with their own doll)
-Insulting the work of a sculptor (constantly bragging about how poorly a doll is made and how you fixed it or telling that the sculptor is a bad person for taking money for such a poorly constructed doll that you had to fix in so many ways)

I've seen people do the above and it rubs me the wrong way much more than someone cutting up a limited in an attempt to make something they'd love.

 

Why not? If a person buys a doll and wants to mod it in a way that suits them, but will not be approved of by others, why shouldn't they? Why should they have to stay with something they would rather change just to make other doll owners on the internet happy?

Some modders, great modders as the may be, might not have the skill/time/patients to build an entire doll. It's like with a car. They might not be able to build an entire car. But it doesn't mean they can't buy one and do a frame off restoration (I think that's the term...). If I were able to do proper modifications and I had a gorgeous, perfect for me doll in mind, I'd have no problem buying one and changing it to suit my vision. i'm not bootlegging, I wouldn't be reselling it. I paid the company their cash for the doll, that's all they should care about. I wouldn't be wrecking or harming it, just changing it into what I wanted since I couldn't buy it exactlt as I wanted it, and wasn't and actual doll maker.

 

Actually it's not that far off-topic! It speaks to having to coexist with others whose methods are way different from yours. But I should clarify - because I agree with you utterly - if someone else's kids ARE breaking the rules/laws of wherever we happen to be, and ARE actually causing trouble to others, I'll definitely ask them to stop (or report them to management, or whatever). Without hesitation. What I meant re this debate was: I can surely tell the parents to put a lid on that shit when they're in public & around me, but I can't tell them how to train those kids at home. (No matter how much I would love to.)

Dollwise, that line is kind of in the same place.... I could tell somebody I don't personally like a particular modding job, but I couldn't tell them that they have gone too far & aren't allowed to do any more modding at home. (No matter how much I would love to.)

I have NEVER bought this line of reasoning, "just because you can do/wear/say/create something doesn't mean you should". You hear it every day, though. It's just such eternal bollocks. If you can do something, you want to do it, and you're allowed to do it, then fachrissakes just DO it. Carpe diem. You will have plenty of time for restraint & inaction after you're dead.