Re-Releasing "Retired" Sculpts?

Much like comics, dolls are a collectible. If they re-release a run of comics, it does not devalue the original, as there are still differences between the two.

When you purchase any product, you take the chance that it will be later improved on, re-released, or altered - any product, not just dolls. If you pay enormous second hand prices, for anything, which later turns out to be a mistake, that is not the company's issue, it is yours. This has nothing to do with morality, it's simply a business move.

I know that in dolls people tend to invest a lot of emotion into the product, which muddies the issue, but if we were talking about Ikea chairs people wouldn't be nearly so up in arms. Likening it to another product entirely helps, I think, people to understand just why it's so silly to get so angry at a company for re-releasing their own supply as the market demands.

 

Atsuhiko, excellent post.

I was just thinking about a local furniture company that had a limited release run of furniture two years ago. They just re-released the furniture with small improvements for another limited run. Not one person got up in arms about it not being "fair" that now their older furniture was "devalued" -- and no one claimed their older furniture was now "not as good" because it didn't have the improvements.

Limited releases happen in every hobby and business known to man. There is never a guarantee that what you are buying will never be run again (unless the company specifically uses those words). And the company certainly does not owe it to anyone never to improve their products in order to avoid making past buyers feel unhappy with the products they bought. Heck, businesses intentionally try to get buyers to purchase more, and what better way than offering an incentive than an improvement to the design?

As an owner of two limited dolls, I can honestly say I don't give a whit about how many are out there, who else has been allowed to obtain one, or whether or not the designs might be improved and re-released in the future. I bought these dolls because I liked their design, not because I was desperate for bragging rights and the feeling of being a special snowflake. If they were made standard tomorrow I wouldn't care -- even if they were made substantially cheaper. When I bought them, I decided it was worth the cost to me to own them, and they have made me happy. That won't change just because someone else got a better deal than me. If it did, that would mean it was never about the dolls in the first place -- it was about feeling superior to others.

 

I agree with this and the previous post 100% Its just because we are not comparing them to other products that we get so touchy.

Though i feel bad for those who made investments, this is the same as any other collecting hobby except with more money involved. If i were buying beany babies ( and i did) and saw one on ebay for 9 times the market value (remember the $60 beanies in mint condition? v_v) then its my mistake if they are suddenly brought back by the company and the price plummets. Its was a bad investment on my part.

any company has the right to do what it wants with its ideas. If it decides to change or tweak them and bring them back into the market after a time, more power to them. Its their idea.

But, if i company says they will 'never' bring a sculpt back in specific terms then that is false advertising and bad buisness. Its just unethical for any buisness to do that to its customers.

 

Very well said!

 

I'm going to agree with the previous posters on this page who point out that rereleases are nothing to get up in arms about. Even if a discountinued doll is not released again, there is still no gaurantee that it's value will rise--bjds don't make reliable investments. Its far far better to buy a doll, because you love the sculpt and just forget about the money. Companies also need to make money to survive, and bringing back a popular sculpt that collectors are asking for is a good way for them to do that. They aren't responsible for what happens on the secondary market.

I see it like this: I paid a chunk of money for my Kawainino Anna head back before Ninodoll started selling heads again. A few weeks ago I saw an Anna head in the marketplace for considerably less than I paid, since there have been several order periods for Ninodoll in the past year. I'm not upset that I spent the cash on my Anna head, though--I love her dearly and feel like the happiness I get from having her far outweighs the price I paid.

 

Exactly. That is the MAIN REASON I got into this. If I buy a doll for $800, I can sell her for $800 tomorrow or next year (usually). That takes a lot of the pressure off for me and makes the hobby more "do-able."

Also, while I admire you people who aren't so petty and shallow, I do like have a doll that is limited or hard to get (even if no one else but me likes that mold anyway). When Volks re-released Tinatsu, I felt as if my own lost something since, right now, I cannot get what I paid for her. And that is only an example of "re-release" since Volks never said they wouldn't release her again (I just assumed they wouldn't given their past yo history...). Once a company says a doll is retired, the price changes. To turn around a few years later and change their mind is unfair for people who "bit the bullet" and shelled out hundreds or thousands. If the company just says "we aren't currently thinking about making this mold anymore," that's one thing. Saying "she/he is retired" is another. You force buyer then into the secondhand market and then turn around and reward people who didn't purchase at all.

that's just me...

 

To politely debate this point: No one "forces" the buyer anywhere. People who don't purchase at all generally have simply made a decision that they're not going to pay the secondary market price.

I know people often say they "can't afford" those prices and perhaps in some cases, especially where the price has really gotten astronomical or the person is pretty broke, that is literally true. But a lot of times when people say "can't afford" it is shorthand for "not willing to pay" because, let's say secondary market price is 2000 dollars, you'll see people turn around and spend that much total on a variety of other items - either a few other cheaper dolls, clothes for them, or some other aspect of their life like a vacation or camera equipment or whatever.

And there are people who are very honest and say "Hey I am simply NOT going to pay four or five or ten times whatever that doll cost when it came out. I would rather just not have the doll than pay those inflated/scalper prices."

And there are still other people who happily cough up the extra money because they really want the doll and have the money to spend. In doing so they KNOW they are taking a chance that they will lose money on that deal, either because (a) the sculpt could get re-released, (b) the sculpt could simply lose value for a variety of reasons - less popular over time or too many flippers flooding the market, or (c) the doll could get damaged or destroyed or lost in some fashion that you would have a hard time recouping what you spent on it. Sometimes you can't insure things for full value or it doesn't cover everything.

People who buy a secondary market limited doll often do not care about a or b or c. They just love that sculpt and they want one. I'm not saying everybody who cares about the ability to get their money back is shallow, nor am I saying everybody who plunks down secondary market price for, say, a Ryu or Breakaway when it was unavailable is perfectly happy with the idea that the doll then reappeared for cheaper. But a lot of people are OK with it.

I know I overpaid for my Wishels and could have got them cheaper if, for instance, I'd waited till Pukis came out and everybody wanted them instead. Do I care? Not particularly. I wanted some Wishels and wanted to get that want out of the way right then.

Am I upset that I paid secondary market price for a Breakaway? Nope. I like the boy I got, and I figure that freed up another Luts re-release Breakaway for someone who wanted it and couldn't or didn't want to pay the secondary market cost. Plus, Luts' ordering is so wonky I was just as happy to pay extra to someone I could rely upon to actually send me the doll in good shape without a hassle.

In short, a lot of us who play the secondary market for limiteds do so with eyes wide open and an understanding of whatever "risk" is involved. I think you would be kind of silly not to.

 

Being honest, I don't think there should be much of a fuss over re-releases of "retired" molds at all. It is a business move after all. No matter what wonderfully happy images one has of doll companies that make one think that they are in it to please the customer and really give them something they can take home and love, doll companies are in the business because they know they can make money.

If they only make 20 of a certain doll in the entire world and they notice that these dolls are selling for $2000 on the 2nd hand market a few years down the line, why wouldn't they make a few more for a limited time? It draws more attention to their site as well.

If people hear about some legendary doll being re released they visit the site and also catch glimpses of the other dolls there. So even if they don't go for the re-release of the limited they have a chance at settling for one of the other dolls on the site.

I wouldn't complain much at all if a company were to release something I paid for in the 2nd hand market. Because I got what I wanted and when I wanted it. I also got one of the originals. Which does mean a little more to me than getting the re-release that everyone and their cat will have.

I am waiting for a re-release right now. Apparently there were only 10 in the world before now. I couldn't even find one on the second hand market. I don't think it's bad for me to want him and buy him. I'm thankful the company wants to make more of him.

I'll admit to being a good bit disappointed if I just paid $2000 last week for a limited only to have the company re release him/her for $699 only this week. In fact, I'd be plain pissed off. But somehow, I doubt it happens that quickly very often.

 

I say they are "forced" because if they choose to purchase the doll then, yes, they are "forced" to use the second hand market. That's fine, dandy, and cool when you enter into that realm aware of the facts. I would be MAJORLY turned off a company for good if they announce Doll X, originally $599, was discontinued, I buy it (if I LIKE the doll and can't get the doll from the company of course I am going to try secondhand market) for $2200 off Yahoo Japan a year later, and then two months after that the company changes their mind and brings Doll X back, but, you know, with different eyeliner. I don't CARE about EYELINER or something petty like that so it is not like comic books where there are slight differences in the paper used. If a company says a doll is discontinued and then "changes their mind," that would be like me promising to pick someone up from the airport and changing my mind. It’s like changing your mind after we all came to an understanding. I am not MAD you decided to discontinue that mold, you have your reasons I am sure, but be professional and stand by your decision.

This, again, is COMPLETELY different from a company who is known to re-release molds and "sells out" of a doll only to re-release him or her later. I am thinking of, for example, Volks who never said Sasha or Momoko were "discontinued" but we the fans assumed we'd never see them again. Some people pay $3000+ for a Momoko on Yahoo Japan and just a few weeks ago Volks announced they were re-releasing (ish) Momoko for $900. They NEVER said the doll was discontinued so I think most of us are elated. Had they announced years ago that they would never release Momoko again and we never saw the head pop up on one-offs, I think some people would be a bit...less thrilled.

 

If someone is using the secondary market, then that is the chance they take. That is their decision to make with their money, and they need to consider the fact that for whatever the reason the doll they shelled out all that money for might not go for that price down the road. The secondary market is completely buy at your own risk, and if people aren't willing to take that risk, then they should stick with buying non-LEs directly from the company. No one is forced--yes if they really really want the doll they will have to pay whatever the price is at the time, but they can always choose not to buy the doll. It isn't a life or death situation. If people really believe that these dolls make sound investments, all it takes is a little research (which they should be doing anyway as these are expensive items) to disabuse them of that notion.

You compare the decision to discontinue a sculpt has having an understanding with hobbyists. Which hobbyists? Yes there are those that purchased the doll thinking it may not be rereleased, but then there are hobbyists who might have lobbied the company to rerelease that very sculpt. Decisions over whether to keep a sculpt discontinued or not have nothing to do with some kind of deal or understanding. Its the company's decision to do what they feel best serves them and their customers, and as evidenced by this thread, rereleasing isn't necessarily all that upsetting to a lot of people.

 

If "retired" dolls can be re-released, and "limited" is a nebulous quantity or time frame, it begs the question why companies apply the labels at all. The obvious answer from a marketing standpoint is that provokes an impetus to buy in a timely fashion rather than risk losing an opportunity to purchase the doll. As such, there is a bit of fraud being perpetrated on the consumer, if, in actuality, the buyer is not limited to purchasing the doll at retail now, but will have more opportunities in the future when the retiree reincarnates. From my personal standpoint, the whole concept of "limited" or "retired" proves to be annoyance factor in purchasing the dolls I want. I collect a doll because I love the artistry of the doll, and the number of copies, or the investment value are not issues for me. I hate the pressure of competition to purchase dolls that are released in a limited quantity. I am frustrated knowing that a doll I love will never be mine because the secondary market cost is too guilt provoking to consider. So since limited is an idea, and retirement is not permanent, may I again put forth a motion that Bermann be re-released. :-D

 

Well, from how i see it. I like the idea of re-releasing limiteds. I mean. I don't think they are in any fault, they are limited in the fact that you just can't order one at anytime. Recently Luts stopped making Tan dolls. I don't know for how long, but if someone just joined the hobby and wanted a tan Delf they would have to look on the second hand market. Now, right now that doesn't seem to bad but in a few years, if Luts doesn't release anymore. Their prices will go up.

And for those of you that don't know, most of the tan delfs weren't limited.

I do understand how it can seem unfair if you have a doll that is limited and worth thousands and suddenly the company that made him/her comes out with their mold again and now your doll isn't as much in price. But the way i feel about it is that I love my dolls because of their mold, not their worth.

I for one want a Luts Breakaway, and BOTH times he came out i couldn't get him due to financial misfortune. Hopefully someday I will be able to get him, second hand or not. But i want him because of his mold, not his limitedness. In fact i don't even like the new breakaway, i want to wipe his face and get face up closer to the original!

 

Can I ask about those of us that didn't know BJDs existed prior to recently? An example would be with me. I am waiting for a re-release of a Soom Tanning Godo that happens in two weeks. This is my dream doll. When he was released the first time I didn't know anything about this hobby, and didn't even know the Soom company existed and I missed out on him, and apparently they only made 10 of him IN THE WORLD, and I thought he was gone forever.

It wasn't that I didn't decide to buy him then. I didn't even know he existed. I didn't even like dolls at the time. So how could is this rewarding someone who didn't purchase him? I didn't have the chance.

I wasn't there, I didn't know, and there's NO WAY to find him on the 2nd hand because there are only 10 in the world. So, I'm not allowed to have him, just because it disadvantages a few people or makes them a little upset because they aren't the only ones that have him in the world anymore?

If you paid $3000 for him on the 2nd hand and then you find out that he's being re released, oh well. Like everyone's been saying, it's a risk you take. When using the second hand. We have no idea when the companies may decide to make more, if they even do.

Remember the companies are in it to make money. If they make money by re-releasing and disadvantaging a few that may or may not even be direct customers of theirs for a greater profit, then so be it. It's their product they really can do what they want with it.

Besides, saying "We don't have plans for releasing him/her in the future" should never lead to the assumption that they're saying in really bad english "LIMITED: WE'RE NEVER RELEASING THIS DOLL EVER AGAIN" unless it says "Limited".

 

Of course, if you buy off the secondhand market you are taking a chance. Many chances. A ton of chances. So many chances that aren't even addressed in this topic. My point is, if the company states that a doll is retired and then decides to "un-retire" the doll after "telling" me they aren't going to make it and I want it (and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing BAD about wanting a doll and buying it pre-loved), I feel lied to. If a company thinks they might bring the doll back, just say you are currently sold out and leave it at that. It's ambiguous.

Sometimes it helps to apply this to something else...let me think. Okay. Some people are REALLY into cars. If a Mercedes Benz sells a car and says "this car will only be made this year. This is SUPER limited. We will NOT be making this car again, EVER!" and 50 people shell out an insane amount of money both to the company and the second hand market, do they have the right to be miffed when next year the company says "LOL, just kidding. Nah, that car will be made every year from here out and in more colors."

On the other hand, if the car is really limited, I am sorry for those who fell in love the car after the fact, but that is life and happens in every hobby. My dad is a biker and loves a particular style of bike more than his only daughter. () The bike, however, was very limited and created before he was born. Is that not fair? Should Harley remake it? No. That's life. That's is why he searches auction sites around the world every two weeks just in case.

I respect and admire a lot of you who aren't effected by a doll's rarity or value, but some of us are. Think about stamp collecting. Some people just think any stamp is cool, and that's perfectly admirable, but some people are just nuts and spend all their life on Ebay trying to find that upside-down Wright brothers stamp. Some things that are rare and valuable have more appeal to some people. That is why this hobby is so great. There are lots of standards out there and re-releases so most of us have a chance for our "dream dolly" but there are some "holy grails" to strive for. It cheapens the quest for the Holy Grail, for some, if the Holy Grail is ava at your local 7-11.

And, again, I am not justifying ASSUMPTIONS here. The debate topic is when a company SAYS a doll is retired, and we believe them to honor their word, what are our feelings on them re-releasing a RETIRED doll, not just a limited edition of a mold they happened to sell out of and never made a comment on. For me, it’s lying and I don’t like liars. Like I tell my students, if you’re chewing gum and I call you on it, don’t lie. Go spit it out. I’ll be even MORE upset if you say you aren’t chewing gum and five min later you blow a bubble.

 

O.o Well, it's also just life when they re-release. Besides it's not like they'd be made available regularly. I would think if it was limited in the first place, wouldn't it be limited again during the re-release? If the "Holy Grail" was to be mass produced and put in as the "7-11" type of doll, one would think that'd be a bad business move on their part.

Limiteds have something that makes them limited. Whether it be clothing, resin, or face up, it's something they don't want to or can't mass produce. If they tried to do so they'd probably wind up losing more money than they'd gain if everyone and their cat started buying the HG doll rather than his/her non-formerly-limited form.

Also, not everyone wants to go on an epic never-ending quest for the Holy Grail, some people would like to actually have an end to their quest while they have a means of bringing it to an end. It may not be the most glorified quest out there, but it still brings satisfaction. I think people who bought the originals only lose out if it becomes a regular item. . . it's just a re-release for what's usually just a short period of time.

 

Well, do you get upset when you buy a stock that's supposed to go up and instead the company president gets accused of fraud and the stock goes down, down, down? It's the same thing. If you are going to get upset with a doll company bringing back a doll, don't patronize that company, or don't buy so-called "limited" dolls, or at least don't spend 2200 dollars on them, wait until you can adopt one from a friend for say 750 dollars, then you will not be "out" as much money.

edited to add, if I can quote something else that I have been told in relation to stocks: if you want to play on the stock market then write $5,000 on a piece of paper, then tear it up and flush it down the toilet and see how you feel. Dolls, same deal: if you want to spend $2,000 on a limited doll that retailed for $500, then write $1500 on a piece of paper, tear it up and flush it and see if you still want the doll after that. If the answer is "yes" then buy the doll.

I hate to sound harsh because I'm sure sympathy is more with your view, but again, if you're going to go on the secondary market and drop big money on a limited doll, you're taking a chance. Deal with that fact, or live without the doll. Don't blame doll companies for a decision that YOU made based on the information that you knew could change any minute.

Edited again because I forgot to say, this Holy Grail approach to collecting in my view is really silly. If a doll is your dream doll it should be because you love it. Not because it's super rare and limited. Most of the limiteds aren't that much better than the standards quality-wise. If they weren't all limited people wouldn't be killing themselves to get them. Don't fall for that stuff when you're picking grails to want.

 

I agree with Bunnydots. I like the idea of loving a doll because you love it, not for its value. I just wish my other dream doll had a regular version -_-

 

If the doll was never limited to begin with, I especially don't see the need to be upset about it. The orginal intention behind the doll would be that it was readily available, so making it readily available again is different how? Would most non-LEs even jump up that high in price that quickly? Instead of lying, could it be more a matter of changing their mind as circumstances change?--just because you don't like something (in this case rereleases) doesn't mean that there's actually anything nefarious going on. Saying they are discontinuing doll X does not mean they're creating some kind of binding contract with hobbyists that says they can never change their minds.

If you're more into a doll, because you see it as being rare and/or valuable that is your choice, and yes there are many different ways of looking at dolls and being involved in the hobby. However, if you feel one of your dolls is suddenly lacking because it was rereleased, that's much more your personal issue than anything having to do with the company. Its not the company's job to make you love your doll more, that is something that is entirely up to you.

 

QFT, even if that was directed partially at me

That's exactly why I want mine. Because I want and love him, not because he's rare. I didn't know he was rare until after I found out about the re-release and stumbled on a review that said there were only 10 of him , proof of the fact

Aside from that, I do think we've driven the point home a whole lot about the second hand market being a risk that everyone that chooses to purchase a "retired" limited after they become unavailable has to take if they still want the doll and don't want to wait for a possible re-release.

It isn't really anyone's fault that the prices rise with the demand for those limiteds, so is it really a bad thing for the demand to be relieved a little bit with the re-releases? I doubt many really lose out on re-releases, because not too many people shell out more than $1000 on most "pre-loved" dolls (as far as I've seen), and that scenario where someone would pay $3000 for a doll then have it re-released a month or so later is kind of doubtful.

I don't know that many would go into a deal like that, knowing that they may be flushing some big money down the can.