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Re-Releasing "Retired" Sculpts?

Feb 26, 2008

    1. First of all, just like bunnydots said, you shouldn't buy a doll only because it's super limited and the holy grail of the hobby. If you do that, it's a waste of money, even if you found a very good deal.
      I couldn't care less if the limited dolls I own were to be re-released. I didn't buy them to brag about it, I loved their faces. If gomidoll decided to sell Iru again, I'd be very glad. Now there are only a handful owners on this board and I would like to see him more often. And if I see how some people desperately want a certain mold, than I'm just happy for them if they get a second chance to get it.

      I so agree with you here. We're not entitled to get a specific limited mold. The companies will not look at us and think.. oh, that poor Silk wants one of our limiteds só badly, let's re-release it, just for her.
      I loved gomidoll Iru and because there are only a few them I thought I'd never get one. But I was very lucky to have a friend who wanted to sell hers. Same with elfdoll K-ss... I spent most of my time in the marketplace and with the help of a few very friendly people there I own him now.
      The doll that got me hooked on BJD's; Kanon Louis, I haven't found him yet. But once I will, I will do whatever I can to get him home.
      Getting a doll that's rare isn't impossible, but it will take a lot of your time.
       
    2. Quoting Bunnydots: "Well, do you get upset when you buy a stock that's supposed to go up and instead the company president gets accused of fraud and the stock goes down, down, down?"

      Well, actually, yes. (Witness the Enron debacle. . .but, true, part of the panic there was the employee investors' fault for putting a substantial chunk of their retirement dollars in company stock.) And, yes, any investment speculation is a crap shoot, but it is at least a somewhat educated crap shoot on the assumption that you are given a true set of facts by the company.

      I do not see dolls or collect dolls as an investment, so I'm not even entering investment potential into the equation of interpreting a doll company's statements. I do think it is disingenuous to assert that when a doll company announces that a doll is retired that this does not or should not affect buying decisions. People are more likely to buy sooner forecasting a lack of availability of the doll in the future. Perhaps, they put off buying another doll to buy the retired one (and, this, then affects another doll company's revenue.) Perhaps they resign themselves to buying on the secondary market--and, yes, this always an economic risk, but, you can't say they have no right to be annoyed that they went to the secondary market and were parted from more of their dolly dollars under a false set of assumptions.

      Words do have meanings, maybe some are more nuanced, but others are more definite. "Retired" to me, in the doll sense, means "done, finito, not coming back, buy me now or chase after me later." If they don't have meanngs, and we are meant to spend the day parsing, then why apply them at all?
       
    3. Of course, we're not entitled to have a re-release, but if the company that makes Kanon Louis had a re-release for a short period of time would you be upset by it?

      Besides, if the company never said the doll was limited and enough people asked about it I'm sure they probably would re-release it if there was good money to be made OR they'd just put up a bulletin that said "Stop asking, it's not coming back". One or the other.

      Indeed it is time consuming to go for that rare doll, some people just can't devote all that time. Not because they're lazy, not because they don't want it bad enough, but because they just can't. Suppose they want a doll with only 20 in the world. There are 6 billion people scattered across the globe, what are the chances that one of those 20 people is on DoA and willing to sell?

      The searcher can't speak or read Japanese, Chinese, Korean, or whatever language the owner uses to auction/sell their doll, so their resources are limited. Sometimes it's harder than it seems.

      Ex. If someone was selling one of those dolls online in Serbian doll site. How would you find yourself on a Serbian marketplace? Especially since you don't speak Serbian.

      You would have to wait until that doll floats into a realm where you actually could get your hands on it. And, there's always the chance that after all this time those dolls may have found permanent homes or have been damaged in a way that makes them unsalvageable, making your quest literally endless.

      Say there's one floating around the world, lots are looking for him, 5 have been messed up through accidents or are sitting in someone's basement, forgotten about (ex. the owner dies and the doll is put in storage with the rest of the owners belongings) either thrown away or just not for sale, and the other 14 have found permanent homes where the owners won't want to sell him/her ever.

      I don't think I'm taking this too far, this is what really happens with limited items. This is the kind of endless quest I'm talking about. With all the time spent embarking on this quest no matter how much you want the doll, it may not be worth it if you finally get it.

      Kind of like the story of the man who traveled all over the world looking for this one kind of soup after searching for most of his lifetime when he finally found it again he didn't want to eat it.
       
    4. I don't know, with Retired dolls a lot of time when they re-released them, not only are there a limited supply but they tend to look different, whether it face up or outfits. But limiteds, that get brought back can be the same or different.

      If you ever ask about a mold specific limited they usually tell you "We don't plan on re-releasing" That doesn't mean "We are not bring back such and such"
       
    5. This is very true. I don't think that many doll manufacturers ever said, "we're not re-releasing this sculpt, ever again." The only one I can come up with right off was the Bermann, where Anu has said that after her run, they aren't going to be produced again.
       
    6. No, I wouldn't be. Just as I wrote I'd be very happy. But until that time comes I'm not going to be angry because it wasn't fair I could never buy him directly from that company.

      As for the super-rare dolls, I can speak from experience that there ís a chance you'll find one. I'm not sure exactly how many gomidoll Iru-HS's were sold, but I do know it was a véry small number. And most of them were sold in Japan, so I could forget about those. I think that 80% of those dolls would never leave their owner. But that still leaves 20% that dó. If you go for it, you'll get one, especially because most people who want one will use arguments like you just did and give up.
      A friend of mine got another rare doll (Seimei) after a two year search. So, by these experiences, I do not believe that there are many dolls that are impossible to find.

      But, if the company would re-release your dreammold I'd just go for it. It would save you a lot of trouble and time and make you just as happy.
      Good luck finding your Soom Tanning Godo! I hope you'll get him in the re-release.
       
    7. I hope I get him too :sweat

      Anyway, I do doubt there are many worthwhile dolls that are that hard to find, since I do think most companies release more than 20 of them at a time :XD:

      Back to the topic:

      Disclaimer: I am not an expert, this is really just what I think would happen.

      Even if you buy a $3000 dollar doll on the market place, and there is a re-release the value won't really decrease all that much just because of the re-release. Because it's still limited. It isn't like it turned into a regular item that could be purchased any time.

      If that were the case, then yes, I could definitely see why some would be pissed off with a re-release.

      It isn't like everyone can rush and shell out big bucks at the drop of a hat, either. I would think, buying a re-release might put 50 to 100 new dolls on the market if they're not cheaply priced. An example would be: $1000 per doll. From what I've seen you tend to get barely more than half a month to prepare for a re-release.

      Lots of us are usually caught off guard by that and don't have time to gather money or at least that much money. So, I doubt the market value probably doesn't drop much overall, since some of those dolls are going to permanent homes at some point. Right?
       
    8. At the end of the day that doll company is a business and a business is out there to make money.
      They wouldnt do anything if it didnt make them money.
      So I guess thats the reason for re-releasing retired dolls.
       
    9. 1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?

      They are a business and thus motivated by profit. I WANT my favorite companies to stay in business. To do that they need money, so I think that if they feel they need to re-release a sculpt to, for instance, get out of the red, then I have no issues with it.

      But even if they did it because demand dictated it, I also wouldn't have a problem with it. I personally feel that often people buy dolls because they are exclusive rather than because they love them. If a sculpt is re-released this may affect market value of the initial release, but it shouldn't change how much people truly love their dolls.

      2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?

      I think it is great to re-release dolls with a more modern resin to better preserve the sculpt. People can then have an "original" and a newer, but more resilient resin one as well.

      As a newer BJD collector, I want quality dolls made of quality resin. I won't buy an "original" to have an "original". Longevity is important to me, and I think great sculpts should be readily available to those who want to buy them direct from the manufacturer. But I'm not a huge fan of the secondary market. I like to buy my dolls new since I'm very particular about my dolls.

      3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?

      I don't buy dolls because they are rare. I buy them because I love them. In other words, I only buy dolls I want to keep. Their market value has little relevance to me.

      Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?

      No and no. I think as a company with integrity they need to have good customer service, create quality products for competitive prices and turn a profit so that they are there in the future if I have any repair concerns. Re-releasing particular headmolds has little relevance to me since I feel it celebrates the beauty of a particular sculpt. I have little use for secondary market values.

      If a company released past headmolds in an anniversary celebration or wanted to celebrate a particular headmold in a newer resin I think it would increase my respect for the company. They recognize that they want their dolls to be appreciated by all collectors rather than by a select few. I think that's marvelous.
       
    10. What are your feelings on popular companies re-releasing retired sculpts?

      It makes me happy. If I can have a chance to get a doll that I might not have known about before, or had come out before I had gotten into the hobby, I consider it a great opportunity.

      I didn't get to get a Breakaway though. :(

      1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?

      I don't know how moral it is. It really upsets me to look online and see a doll that was selling at $600-ish dollars be immediately resold for twice that; heads on their own going for $800+. It doesn't seem fair, but that person did buy the sculpt, and if they want to sell it for that much, there unfortunately are people out there desperate enough to pay it.

      2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?
      Consider the fact that many doll owners (including myself, haha) are secret Breakaway fangirls, and to see one/have the opportunity to purchase one used to be like a thousand Christmases to some people, and if you managed to hunt one down for yourself it was a matter of great pride. Now they'll be all over the market again with shiny new resin. Does this affect how you feel about the previous sculpt?


      Not me. I wouldn't really care if they re-released a doll for others, I would be happy that other people would have gotten a chance to also buy one. I know how much it hurts when you think you're goping to be getting one of these dolls, and then it falls through. I don't wish that feeling upon anyone. And velue wise, I would think that the older head would theoretically b more valuable, but I don't really know.

      3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?

      Again, I don't really care about rarity. I would be happy for everyone to get whatever they wanted. I think that the most important thing is what you personally do with the doll. If you see your character as a certain doll, or just want a certain doll because you love it, you shouldn't have to go through so much in order to get your dream doll. But that's only my opinion. I guess if it didn't matter that much I'd only own Barbies.

      And a last, very small question:
      Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?


      No. If they're selling a doll I want, chances are I'll still buy the doll.
       
    11. This seems to be the unpopular view in this thread, but as this is dolly debate, I'll say it anyway. Forgive any pointedness here. I too prefer not to see my dolls as "investments" as discussed in another thread. However, I still have issue with what this thread is addressing.


      The issue to me is not the re-releasing. It's wonderful that so many people who love the mold are able to get the doll again. However, if a doll company says "this is the final release. Get it now, or never." The company is making a printed statement, a promise, and a contract with the general public. "If we sell this to you now, you will have one of 20 worldwide. There will not be another chance." They should own up to their word, and let it be.

      To quote sailorlimabean:
      And also quoting Kittyaz's very well-worded point:
      This is a serious point of contention, as while the contract was not formalized by the company, the printed word is powerful, and that contract was implied. The company, by turning around and breaking this word, is violating the customer's trust, financial investment, and their decision to purchase the product at that particular time. It may have been a serious financial undertaking or bad timing to get that 'last release' - one that perhaps required a loan to be possible. This would not have been necessary if the buyer could have waited another year. That is just one possibility, but quantities of money the size of what we look at for dolls are nothing to spit at. And in a way, the company by turning on their promise seems to be doing just that.


      In reply to bunnydots
      I don't believe this is the case. The stock market is something that rises and falls regularly, but there are still clear rules in play there. When those are broken, legal repercussions are imminent. This has proven not to be so in the doll market. Re-releases, release dates, customer care, fees, and other issues are not policed. What seems to be a sound investment may not be, and that is directly in the company's hands, rather than in the hands of a competitive market of other doll makers. Dolls have the potential to be seen as investments, but they are not the same level of investment as stocks, thus the legal perception of these different markets are worlds apart.
      To continue this, doll "investments" (which is an entirely larger discussion) may be lowered in value by a new doll that poses better or that has a better resin... but that is a factor that involves no deceit. If it done honestly, then the risk too was a fair risk.


      I have no problem with dolls that are not labeled as "retired." Things like the Bambicrony colored elves that may be released again at some point (if the resin gets figured out), but are only available in unpredictable batch time-frames... the company is making no promises there. To me, the honesty is what is lacking, and whether or not the community sees a problem with the way people view their doll (investment, art form, cuddle-buddy, or what-not) is beside the point. Buying dolls to save and make money with later may or may not be wise, but it is perfectly reasonable for a person to choose to do that.
      Whether or not many new buyers are happy at a chance to get the beautiful doll previously thought unattainable... the broken word is still there. And that can't be fixed.
      A lie, especially when used for marketing and financial gain for the company, is still a negative experience for those who believed the lie. That sort of lie should not be within the company's perogative to make.


      (again, sorry for the strongly worded post! Hopefully it's not offensive. I in no way meant it to be!)
       
    12. 1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?
      Typically the profit-motivated would seem a bit more "wrong," but I doubt we'll ever know the companies' true motives. My guess would be that their motives were a mix of both. As long as there was never a specific claim that these were the only dolls available, on a now-or-never basis, then it's fine for a doll to be re-released.

      2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?
      I think the only reason to feel this way would be if you bought your doll as an investment (even so, I doubt the re-release would affect it too much. Just look at how expensive number one Barbies are now, even with the tons of reproductions out there). If I owned an original that was hard to find but the sculpt was being re-released, I would be thrilled. I would feel bad for all the people who missed the first chance, and delighted that they would all get a second chance. And if I bought a new doll, I would never feel that the original was outdated- I would feel like those who owned the originals were lucky.

      3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?
      Not really...

      Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?
      As long as I like their dolls and they are not directly violating the law, I'll buy from them. I might just be more wary of what they call their limiteds, if a limited isn't so limited, I might not feel as pressured to jump on it when they are first released.
       
    13. I beg to differ: on the CP Breakaway re-release, my cat never purchased one.
       
    14. I get what ChiByakko is saying and, honestly, I do agree if the company does say "THIS IS NEVER COMING OUT AGAIN" they should stick to it.
       
    15. 1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?
      Alternatively, there is Volks Sasha/Masha, who was recast with some small differences due to a petition, and then sold as a Limited. Even now it is hard to get your hands on a Masha, and if you can it is usually at a grossly inflated scalper price.


      I think their motives for re-releasing are about as moral as the people who buy to resell their limiteds. I'm all for companies re-releasing dolls as I feel it puts a lot of the people who want to profit from fan's desperation out of business.

      2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?
      Consider the fact that many doll owners (including myself, haha) are secret Breakaway fangirls, and to see one/have the opportunity to purchase one used to be like a thousand Christmases to some people, and if you managed to hunt one down for yourself it was a matter of great pride. Now they'll be all over the market again with shiny new resin. Does this affect how you feel about the previous sculpt?


      Don't own one so can't say, but personally I'd tend to feel that the original has become less valuable simply because it's older ie more likely to have yellowed, been scratched or damaged and unless there were significant differences, I would always go for the newer version.

      3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?
      This coincides with the ever-present debate on the "rarity" of a doll and ties into the previous question. What if you purchased a head with the assumption that it would never go into production again, only to find that another surprise batch was released a year later? Would you feel betrayed by the doll company that sold you the head because you bought it on the assumption that it was rare?


      I own a Migidoll Ryu and Miho that when I bought, I didn't realise they were supposedly rare and not to be released again. There's soon to be a new release in May and I'm perfectly happy about it. It's probably devalued the heads that I have, but I'm not worried. They're lovely sculpts and I'm glad other people will have another opportunity to get their own. I love masha and other Volks sculpts, but if I want a rare doll, I'll go FCS and get one of my own, otherwise I'll get a basic and customise it. I won't pay scalper prices on a limited and figure if I can't get one in a lottery etc, it's not meant to be and focus on another doll (one of the joys of being a practical person).

      And a last, very small question:
      Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?

      Nope, I see them as being in business. When Tensiya increased the prices of their Bermanns from $1200 to $2000, it was obviously in response to the secondhand prices. Why put all the work into the dolls only to see other people making more money. I'm wondering if Dollshe will offer a Bermann face-sculpt with his new boy. He's supposedly changing the body, size etc, so it won't be a Bermann per se. We could easily see his face being offered on a 65cm doll. Luts don't specify how their dolls are limited ie face-sculpt, face-up etc so obviously they feel free to re-release. If people are selling their dolls for $2-$3000 secondhand, it will obviously provide incentive to re-release them. I love how they've bought out a miniature Woosoo as well, I'm guessing that will be up for re-release in SD size eventually. It may diminish the secondhand sales of these dolls, but nothing is guaranteed to hold it's price. Look at all the other dolls on ebay. No company really cares about the secondhand market for their dolls unless it offers an opportunity for them.
       
    16. Oh, this is an interesting response! Not to put you on the spot, but I find it to be an interesting cross-point to what many others feel about this hobby.

      It sounds like you feel that because the company is in business, profitablity for the doll maker is the driving justification for re-releasing.
      But in this case you used the example of a company that did not ever claim a doll had been fully retired. (which avoids a tricky point. - and for the sake of debate, I'm bringing it back up.) Do you think an artist/producer's right to profit more than the second-hand market justifies false information when a company does say that the sculpt will be retired?

      Why I find this particularly interesting, is that when a person sells dolls for more on the secondhand market, they are a doll-dealer. This service is that of a middleman who can make it possible for others to purchase a doll from someone in-country, or with personal check or any other more convenient way. Why is the doll artist raising prices or making profit in a marginably fair way more acceptable than marginably fair middle-man practice?
      I'm personally not fond of either middle-men making dubiously fair profit or companies doing the same, as I have made clear in this and other debate threads. But I find it interesting how people defend certain practices that are unfavorable while denouncing others in the same breath. I'm always curious what foundation values determine which are acceptable to whom.

      I hope my business ethics curiosity didn't pull this too off-topic.
       
    17. I dont really understand limited sculpts and retired sculpts. They make me sad. I dont love abjds because I can potentially acquire for a ludicrous sum one of the only two of some random sculpt in the world. I love them because a face or a glance or a hand makes me fall in love with them. It in fact makes me angry that companies retire sculpts at all. For instance, Elfdoll Soah is supposed to be going into returement very soon. This veritably makes me sob, because Soah is literally the only female sculpt I have ever felt that flutter in my chest for, that tug that says 'Make me yours'.....

      I know I wont ever have her because I cannot afford to get her now, while she is still around, and noone sells their Soahs unless they modded them in some weird way. It is not a nice feeling to think that just because some company wants to 'bump the collector value' of their work, that I am effectively barred from acquiring a sculpt. This is why I am in a panic to get my Abadon. Who knows when they'll shoot him down too???? And then I would be so heartbroken I dont know if I could take it. =T_T=

      Collector value is such crap when any hobby creates such feelings of passion. Isnt the love of the object good enough?
       
    18. I can understand why they do limiteds sometimes. It's like a feeler thread in the Marketplace. "Would anybody want this? We're gonna make a couple. If people love them, then we may make more." That's what "Limited" means to me.

      Like right now, I just fell completely in love with Soom's Beryl-Neverending Dream, who has these fantastic succubus legs, horns and wings. She's beautiful, in my opinion, but she's not for everybody. Sadly, I don't have $800 dollars to bring her home.

      If they were to release her as a general right off the bat, who's to say that she would make the company money? She may tank. Same with their Vega-Last Song. They made him a limited and he may not be for everybody, with his fins.

      They have to think of the business aspect. "What limiteds did well? Well, this one, this one and this one... Let's re-release this one!"

      Wheras, personally, if they say "retired", and they re-release it? Then they're just being fickle.

      That's this blue one's opinion.
       
    19. I have absolutely no problem with re-releases. As mentioned by another member before, I WANT my favorite doll companies to stay in business. So, if they need to get some cash flow going and re-releasing a doll would help; then by all means.

      Since I also got into this hobby fairly recent so I have missed many dolls that I love to own. So I would be very happy if the company decide to re-release I will be dancing with joy.

      And no I do not buy my dolls as an investment. It would be nice if I can get some money back if I happened to make a buying mistake and bought something I did not like in person. It saved me from losing a lot of money for a mistake. AND not all LE are guarantee to sell in the second hand market. I have a LE that I need to part with, but no one wants to buy regardless of price. So even in the second hand market the driving force is demand and extra money, not necessary because the doll is a LE or a limited.

      Half of my family is LE, but they are valuable to me because I love them. And I was willing to spend the money on buying them and put up with my old old old laptop for another two years. :lol:
       
    20. If its a limited and they rerelease it i think it should be different looking in some ways or its not fair to the people who bought the first one.