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Recasts and Bootlegging

Mar 6, 2012

    1. Turning a blind eye is not the same as turning the other cheek.
      I don't remember reading comments saying you have to approve everything someone does in order to love them. I made a point of saying you don't even have to judge someone if you don't want to. The person doing the act is not the same as the act. Judge the act and how you behave towards the person is up to you. You can love someone and still say what they do is wrong. Actually, I feel one should tell their loved ones "this is wrong" when they do something wrong. One can be honest and open about it without going all "Shame on you!" or being hatefull. I didn't catch anyone saying you need to be mean towards people who do something wrong.
      I'm of the opinion that "positive indifference", as you called it, can be harmful and you don't do that to your friends and family. Why would anyone want to be indifferent towards the people they care about? Perhaps that's why I don't understand you argument, because I don't understand why one should want to be indifferent.

      "Say no to recasts" does not mean you have to judge and condemn people. It's about judging and condemning the act.
       
    2. Well, there were a few posters who stated outright that if they ever found out a friend owns/plans to own/think it's ok to own recasts, they would stop being friends. And the generally hostile name-calling going on in the thread probably does nothing to convince people that it's merely the act that is judged, and not the person along with it.

      Aaaaand, I should probably stop posting in this thread, in case people get the impression that I'm supporting recasts just because I'm not rabidly against them. /sigh
       
    3. I do this, and my reasoning boils down to how much I respect or like the artist and/or the song.

      For example, I will never buy a bootlegged doll or a forged piece of artwork because I respect and love the artists that much.

      I WILL download music/CD/game X, Y or Z if I do not support the artist who made the music/CD, or the company that made the game. If I love that artist, I will support him/her by buying their music. I remember there was one game company that are complete assholes (I wish I remembered which, this was a while ago), and I vehemently did not want to support them by buying their games. I don't think I actually liked the game I downloaded that much, but I pretty much downloaded it anyways out of spite, lol. In retrospect, it wasn't the most mature thing to do.

      I actually download very few songs, because, apparently, the greater bit of my music comes from gifts from friends. How THEY got their music, though, I'm not sure. XD; I download games even less because, for the most part, I genuinely like most game companies. I mostly have emulators to play my legit PS2 games on my computer, haha.

      EDIT: Oh, one other case of downloading was with Adobe products. My LEGIT Adobe products weren't installing, and for some ABSURD reason, my illegal, downloaded ones were. -_- I don't know, Adobe's anti-pirating safeguards confuse me.

      EDIT2: I also admit, the recent SOPA/PIPA/ACTA propositions just makes me want to download MORE out of spite. -_-
       
    4. Um, what? Besides illegality (lets just toss that aside as if it doesn't matter...since the defenders of recasting don't seem to think it matters), the majority of the arguments are that the recasts pose loss of income to the legitimate companies which in turn affects the hobby, hobbyists, secondary market, and the trust established among the members of the community. To argue that this is "highly opinionated" and "elitist" smacks of disdain against those who do things legitimately and a sense of personal entitlement.

      As irritating as it can be that I can't buy certain dolls that I would really love to have, due to price or limited availability, whose fault is that really? Soom's? Iplehouse? Volks?

      No. The fault is mine. I choose to be a part of this expensive hobby. I choose to work a low paying job so I can go to school to finish my degree. I also choose to scrimp and save to get the few things I can with my budget. And you know what? I value it that much more because I know how hard I worked to get that doll.

      I will never own a Volks or a limited Soom. I can't justify spending that much money on a doll relative to my current income. That doesn't mean I can justify buying a bootlegged doll of the Volks or Soom limited or look down upon those that can afford the real thing and call them "elitist". Grow up.
       
    5. It's their personal choice to stop being friends with recast owners. They didn't say Duskkodesh too has to stop being friends with people if they ever turn out to be recast owners.
      My argument against Duskodesh's arguments is that the person does not have to be judged in order to judge the act. It's an individual's choice. Whether they judge the person or not is up to them, but illegal acts are illegal acts and that's not a choice (until people decide to make work of changing the law and make something illegal legal.)

      A lot of people have also spoken against harassment and name-calling of recast buyers/sellers/owners and I wouldn't want anyone to turn a blind eye to harassment either. Two wrongs don't make one right.
       
    6. ST James: "In one sense, yes this whole issue is an absurd first-world problem: our luxury items are being copied, which upsets the artists who create our luxury items, which in turn threatens our future as consumers of said luxury items, which might force some of us out of the relaxing fantasy world we've created with them. In another sense, these are the handiwork of artists and artisanal guilds who fill a role in a tiny corner of our society that we obviously find compelling. Dolls have been around forever, ABJDs seem like a pretty high-tech new manifestation of a very old idea. Why wouldn't I want to vehemently defend this interesting new phenomenon that affords me so much personal expression? Buying an expensive ABJD is still a selfish impulse, but it simultaneously supports the economic structure of the hobby."

      I understand your point and agree that for many this might be true, but for me, and I imagine most of the working artists on DOA, there is a much more personal reason for hating re-casters and bootleggers: I might do freelance design work (or prostitute myself as many artists would see it) which is what usually pays my bills and gave me the money to buy my BJDs - but I also create art and art dolls. I don't make much profit at all from either of those two endeavours because art is very labour intensive, and so seeing another artists work being stolen seems very personal.

      When you have had your work stolen and resold (bootlegging and recasting are exactly that) the wound is much more than financial; it knocks your confidence, it makes you wonder why you keep doing it at all, it makes you suspicious, and in the case of at least one really talented artist I know: it makes you give up. I could easily imagine myself getting to the point where I just paint and make dolls for myself and never sell them, but this artist actually put down their paint brush and has not done any creative work for almost 16 years now. Not only was he robbed of his art, he was robbed of his desire to keep on creating and all of us have been robbed of a chance to enjoy his talent.

      Creating art, creating BJDs is an incredibly personal thing and there is always risk when sharing it with the world but the internet seems to have made that risk almost unacceptably high. Not only has it made it ridiculously easy to pirate almost anything and reach a worldwide market for your ripped off goods, it has also created this situation where art and crafts are gradually becoming devalued by the very sites that were set up to celebrate them.

      This is a bit of a side issue but etsy is home to many millions of artists and crafts people from all over the world and a friend of mine pointed out that they don't see why they should pay someone in the UK ยฃ30 to make a knitted scarf for them when they can send a photo of the one they want to a knitter in Mexico and have it done for ยฃ5! Even with shipping and customs tax they would still save! How is that not bootlegging? I also know a doll artist who has started to make BJDs, she already sells her cloth art dolls for less than it costs her to make them, so I don't know why I was surprised when, after featuring her tortuous months of progress toward one finished paper-clay BJD on her blog, she put it for sale on esty for $49!!!!!! Ok, it isn't a doll I would call aesthetically pleasing, it does not look like an Asian BJD, but it has all the ball joints and was sculpted and hollowed out and strung in the traditional way... and this is the price she put on all that time and effort. She might say it is her right to lose money on her art if she wants to but it has a knock on effect on the rest of us, as does the Mexican knitter, they are both doing their darndest to foster this idea that art and craft is not worth much> That is just some silly thing that people do in their spare time and should always be there to please those of us who want to amuse ourselves with it but it is not a legitimate career choice and won't put food on your table.

      That is what bootlegging and recasts and copyright theft and all those who buy it are doing to all artists, it's a slow drip, drip, drip erosion of a whole way of life that is killing us all. So if you are a customiser looking for spare parts (you presumably consider yourself creative?) buy them legitimately or you are also part of the problem.

      LeXis: It's a personal thing about values. The woman who pointed out the Mexican knitter and ultimately sent her links to the UK knitwear shop (also on etsy) to that she could copy their work, it crystallized for me a growing sense of unease I had about this person, also an artist, and she is now definitely and ex-friend. As you probably gathered from the post I have VERY strong feelings on this subject, it is something very fundamental to who I am. I don't steal, I don't download and I don't want to be around those who do because it makes me question their morals.
       
    7. Legal or not, recasting is a poor ethical and moral choice because it is stealing. Stealing is wrong, particularly if you are stealing for First World problems. WAAAAH. Cry to someone else about not being able to afford your dream doll. The sense of entitlement is pathetic.

      And I'm like a few, I wouldn't be dolly friends with someone who has recasts/bootlegs.
       
    8. You mean other than the fact that a lot of issues with our society (US society at least; I can't accurately speak for others) can be boiled down to a sense of entitlement? I've been attempting to be level-headed, but this one I can't be level-headed about. Nobody is entitled to anything in this hobby. Nobody. There are no exceptions to this. If you think it's okay to go for recasts because you're entitled to what you want even if it means ripping off a perfectly legitimate company, then I...I just can't even. It hits right at the one thing I find utterly repugnant in this hobby. It's a luxury hobby. You (general you is in effect) are not entitled to a single thing.

      I hate this argument. It belittles a very real, very important issue by implying that it's not important enough to care about. Trying to belittle or hand-wave away something as important as IP theft -- and that's what this statement does, no contest -- is very insulting to the people who do care about this. I'm not an artist, but I have very dear friends who are, and the idea of someone else profiting off their hard work disgusts me. Thus, this issue is a big deal to me, and not something that can be waved off by saying 'there are bigger things going on'.

      Word.
       
    9. @vonbonbon: Loved your post.

      I don't know.. Ever since I joined the hobby I wanted a Kanon Louis - already sold out at that point. I have never seen one in the MP all these years, but I still wouldn't buy a recast if there was one. It has very much to do with the fact that it isn't the real thing. The original artist did not agree with the bootleg version, so it's not his work anymore.
      The main reason why I want to buy Louis is because I admire the sculpt, I admire the artist's hand and so, if I'm buying this doll I'm doing it because I respect his work. Even though it is second hand, it is still a way of honoring his talent.

      There is something about owning the real thing. I love Van Gogh and although I have a very good replica of one of his paintings, it's not the same as owning the original. When I go to the museum to see some of his work, I can almost feel Van Gogh's hand holding the brush and carefully placing the strokes. I don't have that with the replica.

      It's very subjective, I get it. It's the same why I wouldn't want to own a downloaded movie, but rather have the dvd. I guess I'm sentimental like that.
       
    10. The difference, in my opinion, is that I am no longer supporting the artist. I know the doll is not real, I know my money did not go to the original artist, that I should be supporting by buying this doll. That would eat at me. =/

      This is perhaps also why I download out of spite so often. An example I just thought of is Twilight. I hate the Twilight series, I dislike Meyer for writing them, and I don't want a single cent I own to even go to her, however indirectly. Do I actually want to read the books? No. Would I download them out of spite? Hell yes.
       
    11. Just quoting this, because it made me laugh. Sense of entitlement = greed. Actually one of the seven deadly sins.
       
    12. So foaming at the mouth right now. Why is a sense of entitlement such a bad thing? Why? WHY?! Because Sense of entitlement is basically what has been behind racism, sexism, ageism, classism, and a whole slew of other social and economic sins.

      There are only a few things at which "stealing" is okay, and that is to correct an injustice. Sexism is an injustice, racism, all of those other things. Class warfare is an injustice, and that is why we take higher taxes from the rich and give them to the poor. For food, health, education, shelter, all those are a necessity and a basic human need. FANCY DORRIES ARE NOT. You have no "right" to those dolls, they are a priviledged piece of art that you buy the privilege of owning and showing off.

      Just because you want it, doesn't mean you get it. And stealing it is wrong. Suck it up, get over it, and deal with it. If you want my $2000 Volks sculpt you better pay for it, otherwise you get squat. If a company is never going to make a limited sculpt again, like ever, you still have NO RIGHT TO RIP IT OFF. If I want a WS Luna, which I do, I am not going to recast it because it my luxury hobby.

      I am dirt poor, as in food stamps poor. I get a limited allowance, spending money. Money to go to the movies if I want once and a while, or a treat at a little diner. I save that money and spend it on my dolls, after months of saving. I wait until Christmas and ask for dolly related items. I buy my items fairly, and you know what? That makes me a better person than someone who plays their little violin and buys something that ultimately boils down to stolen goods.

      You want to know dream doll? I wanted an SD16 Kaelin girl for years, yearrrrrrrsssss. I once had a chance to buy the SD16 Johanna body for twice what the fullset doll originally was. I passed, because I couldn't afford it. Years and years and years went by while I pined for a doll I couldn't have. I looked into other bodies to stick my Kaelin on, and in the end I only wanted to settle for what I saw as the best. So, I waited and almost gave up. I had a chance once again when someone posted a FS and ended up willing to split. I was on a layaway for what I expected for months, but I tossed over my pocket money, my birthday money, and almost all my Christmas money to buy the doll body I originally wanted. Now, I have my girl and I'm pleased. That is doing the right thing, going to Taobao and getting a recast of the SD16 body in the resin tone I want is not. Trust me, I thought of it for five seconds before I wrinkled my nose and snubbed that idea. Because I am better than stealing from a company and artist I love enough to want their products.

      Take your sense of entitlement and get out of my hobby. If you can't keep up with the costs of this luxury and high-end hobby, then go find something else to play with.
       
    13. How is it elitist to not want to have to worry about whether or not you're buying the real thing or a copy? Why is it elitist to want to support small businesses (abjd companies are not companies as we often think of companies in the US - they are generally tiny)? Nor is it elitist to suggest people be patient and save their money instead. Many people here have to save for what they want (including me. My finances haven't been so hot over the last couple years). It's an expensive hobby, but it's not out of reach for most people if they're willing to commit to it. If a person can afford a bootleg, then they can afford a real doll. I have a problem with people justifying their actions because they want what they want and want it NOW and feel entitled to it. In reality nobody gets everything they want. I have a dream doll that I probably won't ever be able to get, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Life goes on and so do dollies -- a whole string of beauties that are well within reach. You can call 'elitism' if you want, but I call 'entitlement' in return. And yes, entitlement is an issue, because it is often used as a selfish reason for bad behavior whether it's buying recasts, endlessly whining, trying to dictate what other people do with their dolls, etc. There's been a lot of this attitude floating around of late, and it's not a pretty thing.

      I think there's this feeling among some people that buying recasts is a victimless crime and therefore ok. What people in this thread are trying to tell you, is that it's not.
       
    14. I would have no qualms ending a friendship with a doll owner if they owned recasts and had no problem with that. I don't need to continue relationships within this hobby with people whose belief systems are in direct opposition with mine and I really, intensely dislike people who lie to me. And I do know about maintaining relationships with people who do commit much bigger crimes and have much bigger issues - my younger sister is a very troubled heroin addict - but you know, she's my family and is therefore much more important in my hierarchy of loved ones than a doll friend and even then, we have had family members decide that the only thing they can do now is to no longer have contact with her because of her problems. It's very hard to deal with, but in the end, I have to accept their decision because they have that right.

      So yes, I will judge someone on the internet based on their actions that I find to be selfish, greedy, lazy, and entitled, and I have no problems saying that or admitting that this makes me not want to know them. This is not cutting someone out of your life because you want to deny them human rights, or helping people be systematically oppressed based on their skin colour or gender or religious beliefs, this is cutting someone out of your hobby because they're acting like an entitled brat.

      Every single argument for recasts I have ever seen translates to "whiiiinnnneeeeee I want what I want no matter how it affects others!!" This is a first world luxury hobby. No one is entitled to get every doll they want. It is not a basic human right nor is it something someone needs to live.
       
    15. I can't count how many posts I've made now where I said that if I thought the act actually harmful I would tell someone, but that seems to be ignored. So, I'm going to do something actually helpful here: I'm reading this entire thread and breaking down the for and against arguments into a list of key specific points for everyone. This is going to take me a bit and DO NOT TAKE ANY OF THIS AS MY OWN OPINION. I'm simply simplifying the argument for us so we can debate points and not people. Give me a tiny bit, this is going to be intensive.
       
    16. There's also the Gordian knot of arguments that translates to "I am such a large-souled, saintly person that I embrace every doll and doll buyer in the world, especially the unloved recast/ers and bootleg/gers. The rest of you are just narrow-minded ELITISTS who JUDGE, and JUDGING IS ALWAYS WRONG, and besides, I'm sure you all illegally download music, so you have NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE RECAST/BOOTLEG BUYERS. And I don't care that recasting is illegal, anyway, because I'M ENTITLED TO MY OWN OPINION."

      Oh, the logic.

      Since I, too, am entitled to my own opinion, I'm grateful that this thread is helping me expand my Ignore list in such an efficient way.

      Sarcasm aside, I do wonder whether those in this thread who have proclaimed their tolerance for or even support for recasting/bootlegging--on tumblr, here, or anywhere else--fully realize that others will remember those positions when buying and selling in the Marketplace. Even anonymous tumblr posts can have pictures attached, and plenty of people have retentive visual memories that will remember those pictures/faceups/dolls when they appear later in sales threads. I will neither buy from nor sell to people who have defended fake BJDs; I wouldn't trust them with any size of transaction, on either side. Maybe I'm just a tired old lady who doesn't get paid enough for dealing with this kind of immaturity in her day job, but it's not worth the stress and time to blight my private life by dealing with people who have already announced that they're dishonest.
       
    17. While it does not negate all of your (very valid) arguments, I would just like to point out that I do NOT support buying recasts for the sake of saving money. Nor do I condone selling recasts. That is not my position at all, and I understand that there are still (very valid) flaws with my views and my arguments. I specifically referred to special circumstances in which the doll, or part would be atrociously difficult to obtain any other way. I know to most of you, that doesn't make any difference, but I'd rather not be attacked for something I never suggested.

      I read and understand all of your responses and I'm sorry to have gotten so many people all heated up. I'm a passive person by nature, which is why I very seldom debate (and why I'm not very good at choosing words that won't be misconstrued.) I just wanted to voice my opinion, and I have done that.

      The childishness and animosity is unnecessary and only makes you look bad. I regret using the word 'elitist'.

      Duskkodesh I look forward to your breakdown!
       
    18. If you look at history of other doll types, there were always recasts and copies, including Barbies. In the case of nonBJDs, a recast and bootleg will always be a recast and bootleg, you can see it in the quality, makeup and design of these dolls that are clones. Clones/copies/bootlegs/recasts are sold at low-low prices. They can never be sold at the same price as the original because collectors can tell the difference and sellers specify clearly if it's a clone. They bought it at clone price, so they sell it at clone price.

      However, for the case of BJDs, it can be very hard to tell (by looking at photos) if a resin BJD is authentic unless the seller has unique items associated with the doll like original clothes, costumes, makeup, accessories etc to authenticate the item/s. The more of these items, the better. It is hard to tell by looking at photos if a sculpt or naked body is authentic. However, I strongly believe you CAN tell the difference if you inspect the sculpt and body physically. There's got to be a quality difference, touch and feel, weight and color. If we can tell the difference between resin quality different legit companies, we surely can tell the difference if it's a bootleg.

      I particularly am concerned with the price. Unlike clones of other types of dolls, resin BJD clones can be passed off as originals, priced like an original. For this reason, I don't support the recast of resin dolls by companies other than the original company that designed the molds.
       
    19. Why yes, of course, illegality aside....

      You have a strong opinion for and you're only stating your opinion that it's no biggie and you have a right to express yourself and do what you want.

      I/We/They have have strong opinions against but expressing those opinions strongly is being elitist and childish and hypocritcal and showing animosity and nastiness towards YOU.

      Using the "personal animosity" gambit is in itself an attack on those who happens to disagree with you. In effect, saying that those who disagree better not express themselves as they feel and should do a totally PC tapdance to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.

      All a discussion like this can have, is personal opinions, however they're expressed. Nobody's physically plunking their recast down next to the official version just to prove their point , nobody's physically knocking someone's recast out of their hands to the floor, both of which would indeed be examples of childishness and/or bullying and/or animosity.

      Duskkodesh - I don't think there's any need to "simplify the argument". Everyone has been eloquent in stating their particular point of view AS THEY WISHED TO EXPRESS IT. They don't need help (or want it, most likely) to be rephrased to suit someone else's mindset. And using the phrase: "...where I said that if I thought the act actually harmful I would tell someone...", seems to express your core-belief about the whole thing. Others do believe the act to be actually harmful, and that is the essential point of disagreement, personal expressiveness aside.

      Since so many make comparisons to knock-offs of other products, like designer handbags and watches, yes indeed there must be a huge segment of the buying population that approves, otherwise all those special street vendors I see hawking the stuff in NYC would be out of business. OTOH, when huge incoming shipments of such are found and confiscated at the border, that means something too, and it's not "animosity" towards the street vendors.

      With all the ease and apparent governmental sanction towards making knock-offs in China, I applaud the few companies from there that have gone through the effort to develop their own product lines and quality products.
       
    20. Okay people 3 things first. 1: any and all opinions stated might not reflect those of the poster Duskkodesh, and are presented for simplification purposes only. 2. If I missed anything PLEASE just repost the list with the added point, I'm not a busy woman but I probably can't keep up with all the editing people will think is necessary. 3. listings are not in order of importance... yada yada yada you get the drift. This is by no means done, this is just what was easy to distinguish from everyone's post, if you see something to add please do it saves me work! XD

      For recasts:
      1. Are bought by people who would not (or could not) buy the real thing (Chinese workers with very low salary)
      2. Is equivalent to the second-hand market and companies do not profit from that anyways
      3. Is no different than knock off in every other industry/hobby
      4. Doll is no longer in production so the company is no longer profiting from it
      4.1 The secondhand market is so inflated that one could pay 3-4 times the dolls cost
      5. Recast community makes it easier to identify recasts
      6. Doll companies have large enough profit margins to support the loss
      6.1 Companies assume and plan for possible bootlegs when they choose to cast in China
      7. Would be preferable for someone to buy a recast to mod/ruin than to destroy an original (Hey, someone actually said this so I had to add it... -_-)


      Against recasts:
      1. Resin and materials could be toxic
      2. Steals funds from the companies and artists
      2.1 Goes against personal pleas from certain artists
      2.2 Legit buyers cover the cost of these fakes
      3. Could buy the real thing instead if the individual saved up
      3.1 Some recasts are very similar in price to the originals
      3.2 Limited releases may get rereleased if demand is high enough
      4. Erodes trust in the secondary market (a necessity for some individuals in the hobby)
      4.1 May be disguised as originals for sale
      4.2 Recasts have no secondary market value
      5. Is illegal
      ​5.1 May not be in line with certain individual's morals (I have to allow for variation and morals are a personal thing and different from person to person)


      General points:
      1. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away
      2. Recasts are intended for and distributed in a mostly domestic Chinese market