Recasts and Bootlegging

Just curious, I wonder if you get that my point is that the act of turning a blind eye towards an illegal/wrong act (regardless of whether that illegal act is harmful to anyone) may be harmful towards the person doing the illegal act. If so, okay. If not, I wanted to stress that you may be doing something harmful to another person by saying nothing and letting them continue.
What if a friend expressed interest in buying a recast? I'd warn them not to do so. 1) It's illegal and 2) they may get serious backlash from some more vocal anti-recast hobbyist. I would want to keep a friend from harm if I could, because let's be honest. People who buy recasts and openly admit they do are harming themselves and people who secretly buy recasts are putting themselves at risk of being shunned by other hobbyists.

 

This is not a valid argument. I would bet that bootleg dolls are against the morals of a lot of the people who buy them, too. But apparently they feel a toy is just sooooo important that they have to have it, no matter what.

I actually put this on a similar level as letting a friend drive when they're not entirely sober. After a certain point, it's not legal for them to be behind the wheel. Maybe they can still handle themselves reasonably well and they haven't yet hurt anyone or caused huge amounts of property damage. But there is still a huge potential for damage. Most people would hopefully stop their friend (or yes, even a total stranger) from getting behind the wheel. If you can educate them that they shouldn't do it, so much the better.

I don't think we've seen the full extent of the damage a thriving bootleg community could do to our hobby, and I don't want to see it either. You keep saying "live and let live" as long as no one gets hurt... but the fact is that people could very well be hurt - not physically (no one ever got killed over a doll, as far as I know), but emotionally and financially.

I am not a saint... my first ever copy of Photoshop, way back when, was a bootleg. I knew it was wrong. I'm glad now that I have a legit copy of the program. Aside from the obvious arguments against bootlegging and the threat (however unlikely) of being caught - I also can now go to Adobe if/when I have a problem - I doubt bootleggers provide that kind of service.

That's not a bad idea.

 

As I stated I don't consider everything that is illegal to be immoral or even harmful. In my state certain drugs and assisted suicide are both illegal but in other states it's not. Also as long as someone knows the risks if they then choose to do risky behavior it's their choice. For example not wearing a helmet on a bike. It is a risk but if the person is educated about such a risk it's their choice. Moral, is an individual aspect, what is immoral to me may be exceedingly moral to another person and vice-versa. I tend to prize choice and freedom over most things, that is according to my morals.

As for the possibility of backlash lets rephrase that. Many of us have experienced discrimination for being in such an odd and expensive hobby. What if a relative said "you better not buy such an expensive frivolous item or you may face backlash from your relatives? There are people out there that will hate you and torment you for your weight, skin color, religion, clothes, hair color, hobbies, accent, or country of origin. That doesn't mean that it is a motivator of any sort. That's not to say that any sort of discrimination is warranted, or that any of my examples are illegal activities, simply that society as a whole doesn't tolerate certain things and yet PEOPLE WILL DO THEM ANYWAY. You could tell someone this but odds are good that they haven't been living under a rock during this whole debate and that they already know.

 

I don't evaluate the validity of the points, I was simply gathering them all into one spot. If you feel that one serves no purpose or has already been stated in another point I'd be more than happy to erase it.

The entire point was to give people statements to dispute rather than individuals to argue with. Of course now I don't know whether you're disputing the point or don't think it should be in the list. If you feel it adds nothing please specify for me.

 

All arguments for buying recasts are highly opinionated as well. And I'm not sure how general honesty is elitist unless you meant the hostility going on...in which case, there's still room for both sides of it. Let's not generalize or point fingers.

You're a relativist, I understand that--I am too. But the problem with saying "I can accept bootleg-buying only if there's a good reason" is that there are many other "good reasons" out there, and without certain restrictions, people would do whatever they want for whatever reason they think and it would be a criss-cross-a-ganza of "I don't accept what you're doing".

 

As it's been said, but buying a bootleg to get you that dream doll doesn't get you that dream doll. You may have a copy of it, but what then? If you ever need money, you can't legally sell it. If you want an amazing face-up for it, you can't send it to anyone without the risk of being caught or making them an "accomplice." You can't share pictures of it with the community- even if it's not on DoA, people on other sites including sites like Flickr are vehemently against them. You can't take it to meet-ups. You have severely limited the experience you would have had if you had only bought the real thing.

I just think it would be rather... lonely. Part of the enjoyment of this hobby, for me, comes in the friends I've made and people I've met. I love to talk with them about the dolls they're searching for, discuss those super rare grail dolls none of us think we'll find (though we usually do!) and hunt with friends for that perfect gem. Then celebrate, share pictures, and gush over the new doll once you've finally found it and got it home, even after months of waiting. To talk about your favorite company and their latest releases or past releases and mourn together how you hope a certain doll is re-released... You couldn't do any of that with the bootleg. You'd just ostracize yourself and get yourself blacklisted. Where is the appeal in that? Do people who buy bootlegs not realize the impact they will have on themselves? We talk a lot about the impact on others, but it does impact them as well- rather severely, too.

I just wish people would really understand that they can achieve their dream dolls if they just work hard enough. I'm a poor college student- I'm fortunate enough to be able to enjoy this hobby thanks to a decent job. I work hard for what I am able to get, and I feel that my dolls mean more to me because of the dedication I put into getting them. One of my friends is getting her first doll, but she has already said that she couldn't ever justify spending the money I do, so she always looks at her potential purchases from more reasonable companies, but she would never consider buying a bootleg. She knows her budget and is responsible about it. She told me she would enjoy those rare sculpts she loves by looking at other people's, including mine. She didn't need to own them to enjoy them. You know what? I have to agree with this sentiment.

While not illegal, this kind of reminds me of people who use cheats in video games to compare it to something that is not a crime. Yes, it helps you beat the game faster, but the satisfaction of beating a game through cheating and knowing that you worked hard for it is completely different. And the more you use cheats, the faster you grow bored with the game. It doesn't mean as much to you. Friends who beat the game legitimately may mock you for it or tell you that you had a completely different experience and really need to play without cheating. Since it's not illegal, they won't stop being your friends over it, but there is a certain amount of respect that comes with overcoming obstacles. You, as well as other people, will be proud that you worked hard in the face of adversity- and this applies to a much grander scale as well, not just dolls, videogames, etc.

ETA: Thank you for the list, duskkodesh. I actually missed a few of the points people had made for/against them. I don't know, consider me in the minority, but I like to understand people's motivations so that I can better agree/disagree with their sentiments.

While I don't find arguments for them valid in the least, I have to understand that to the people buying the bootlegs, they are valid and being rationalized in their minds. And since they are valid to them, one needs strong, logical points delivered effectively to undermine that mindset. And, well, that's incredibly difficult to do.

 

Don't. You obviously feel it's a valid point, since you bothered to include it.

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As a way to tell a legit doll from a recast - I support dolls having licence numbers on their head plates - kind of like a car VIN. I think that would be a lot harder for a bootlegger to fake, because it's something the company can track.

@PinkSugar: Very eloquently put. I agree completely.

 

Kymera; Thank you. . That's an interesting idea. I was informed back in this thread that bootleggers have been able to copy headplates and paperwork (which is pretty frightening, in my opinion). I know that Soom gives certificates with a number on them with their dolls that one can look up on their website.

I just find it rather sad that the companies may have to do more work to protect their work. What frightens me, a lot, is the fact that there is a very real possibility companies could choose to stop selling overseas or to foreigners for fear of bootlegging. There are a lot of repercussions we could face due to other people making bad decisions.

Like in school when someone would cheat on a test. Teacher would say if the person didn't come forward, everyone would fail. Punishing all for the sins of the few... it's a very effective method to quickly get people to turn on each other, can't deny that it can be effective, but it doesn't really get rid of the problem of those who will cheat in the future because they think they can get away with it.

Wish there was a catch-all solution for this. But there really isn't.

 

As you wish, it stays. Though I find this incredibly difficult to do. I own 4 dolls from 4 companies and only one even came with a printed slip of a certificate. The others have no ID or papers, one even came sans box (direct from the company mind you)!

Getting all the companies to switch to this method would be tough, not to mention that there would have to be some kind of online database for the numbers or it wouldn't matter. :/

 

PinkSugar: Thank you. I can't really take credit though. One of the companies I have a doll from is actually already doing this. She has an ID number on her head plate and a separate swing tag/key chain that has a number just for her body - because the company has already accounted for the idea of doll splits and hybrids.

(Not surprisingly, the company my doll is from is Chinese. I guess they would be more aware than anyone of the bootlegging problem.)

 

The prob with the ID number is that once the bootlegging company buys the one legit doll, they have a legit ID number for that particular type of doll, and there's nothing to stop them from putting that ID number on every single recast of that doll they sell. No one would be any wiser that there are a few hundred or thousand #00000000 labeled whatevers out there and that theirs is not the only one. Or once they have the one legit ID number, it's prob safe to assume most companies would use sequential numbers and they could work out more legit ID numbers from there.

I think if bootleg companies weren't on some level concerned with making their fakes pass as the real thing, they wouldn't be faking headplates, CoA, and company markers. They'd be stamping them with their own branding and using their own CoA.

 

Hm, I think the key to that would be a database created by the company that ties a registration number to the owner. The owner would then be responsible for notifying them when a change of ownership takes place. It's not completely dissimilar from registering purebred animals, really. The problem would be depending on the companies to keep up with it, but if they're truly concerned about bootlegs, then I think it would be in their best interest to do something?

The alternative would be creating a community database, but if we're registering dolls *after* they've been sold, we run smack into the problem of trying to tell bootlegs from 'purebreds.' Still, I think the idea has merit, and I think having that extra assurance might even be worth a small additional cost to have the peace of mind.

 

Kymera; See? I do find that interesting. There are plenty of good Chinese companies that are legitimate and make beautiful dolls that cater to different aesthetic tastes for "cheaper" prices.

Kim; You know, that's a really good point. I was thinking about that considering how headplates and papers already get faked, so those ways of determining a doll's legitimacy isn't always reliable. :/ Which means that, to a degree, the bootleggers are preparing for the doll to deceive. Even if they own up to the doll being a fake... they set up for the people who buy from them to fake others. Ugh, I just. I don't even. The deceit behind the practice really makes the stealing that much worse to me. It's already bad enough on its own, but.

 

@DuskkoDesh, MosiacWolf, & Kim: I agree, it's not a perfect system, just one counter-measure. I'm sure not every company is computer savvy enough to manage something like this, since even a single company database could grow to a huge scale. Not every owner is going to take the time to update a company when they've sold their doll - and then there's the problem of splits and hybrids - I can't imagine Soom trying to do separate ID numbers for their individual fantasy parts.

In a secondary database like this... I think one of the required fields for creating a doll listing should be a valid order number - probably not visible unless you are the owner of that doll. There would also need to be a way to link the various parts of a hybrid doll into one listing - as well as a way to transfer dolls/parts between various accounts. It could get pretty complicated, from a management/creation standpoint, but I think such a thing is doable.

Obviously, if a secondary owner chooses not to maintain the paper trail, that's their own prerogative. There would probably need to be a way to tag a doll as sold, maintaining their information, but also indicate that the doll/parts aren't attached to a new account. Doll-paper-trail limbo, if you will.

(While it's OT for this discussion - such a database would also be useful in the case of a stolen doll, since it would contain most, if not all, the information necessary to identify and prove ownership of a specific doll.)

 

This is my absolute favorite of the arguments being put forth.

I have that kind of memory, and I'm grateful that people have been so upfront about their mushy morals! It will make future business transactions much, much easier.

 

Thanks for bringing up the whole bootleg community aspect. I think that's what really has me worried the most. In the past, if someone bought bootleg dolls they would have had a very difficult time finding a place to share them and take part in hobby activities with other people. Sure, some folks aren't into the whole community thing, but clearly a decent number of hobbyists do actively participate in some form or another. But now they have their own community full of other people who will happily help them rationalize their choice, give them support, and help them with buying information. That to me is a recipe for a major increase in fakes and encouragement for bootleggers to continue trying to make more and better recasts.

I know a lot of people (including myself) have mentioned the secondary market. Right at this moment, I don't feel it is any more unsafe than it has been, and I won't stop shopping there as it stands now. What concerns me is what things are going to be like down the road if recasts and their community grow and become more entrenched in the whole bjd scene. It's going to make them a lot harder to avoid, and with a thriving community, it's going to make recasts seem like a valid choice to new hobbyists who may not fully realize how abjd companies actually work, why things are priced the way they are, etc. That's why I really feel like a live and let live attitude now is going to set us all up for bigger problems later. I don't want to have to give up using the marketplace a year or two from now, because suddenly a bunch or very well done fakes are circulating around. Unfortunately for me, the company's dolls that I'm most likely to buy second hand is also one of the ones that tends to get copied a lot. As a person that has purchased a lot of dolls second hand, I also don't have items that can prove they are original dolls either should I decide to sell. This is the damage that fakes on the market can cause, and I don't know how anyone can sit back and suggest that it's not a problem.

 

What worries me most about this (other than the very real harm being done to small companies) is the secondary market. Makes one wonder how many people have bought a doll 2nd or 3rd hand that is really a bootleg but HOW would you know, especially a recast - if not a limited or numbered doll? So worrying...

 

I think that this is precisely why those who are pro-recast are rallying around a new "all-inclusive" forum as though they were being unjustly descriminated against.

As for the idea of authentication databases, Dollshe Craft already does this. Both head and body come with a credit card style certificate and the owners information is kept on file so that the doll's sales history can be authenticated upon request.

 

Er... not ALL of the pictures used on the tumblr blogs are the pictures of the person who actually made the confession. So be careful you don't confuse them and end up thinking someone's doll is a recast because it was used for the background of a recast-confession. They may not even know it was used for that purpose.

I can't imagine putting someone on my ignore list *only* because they don't feel the same way about recasts as I do. I might put them on a mental "use caution when buying resin from" list, but I don't think I could say that simply disagreeing about recasts in the absence of actually owning one would nullify all that person's other contributions to the community.

Other luxury hobby communities have the same problems with recasts/knock-offs/bootlegs that we're just waking up to realizing we have, and they've survived. (I'm thinking of resin figure kits in particular) Keep the community pressure on that 'this is not okay on DoA', learn to recognize a recast to protect yourself in the second hand market, and have a long conversation with anyone who is caught selling a recast as authentic. (I say 'long discussion' instead of 'insta-ban' because you can't automatically assume they weren't tricked by the person who sold it to them... however, if we make everyone aware of the signs of recasting, there will be less chance someone can get away with a trick.)