Recasts and Bootlegging

Teleri; I think that you can't let the bootleggers take away from your enjoyment and make you paranoid. If you just can educate yourself... you can do everything you can to protect yourself. :/ It's not a 100% fool-proof method, but I know that I'm not going to let them ruin the hobby for me.

St. James; I did see that... but I admit it's still hard for me to fathom how anyone could get enjoyment out of cheating themselves out of the real experience. It just seems rather miserable to me.

Maybe the database thing would be the best option in the long run. It's something worth considering, as long as people who sold the doll were willing to update it.

 

I've already gotten more wary of offerings on the MP since I saw the Iplehouse recasts that were posted on the Internet a while back; listings that don't show the headplate or offer the original box or paperwork, or have non-factory faceups, are not going to be purchased by me.

Now this is what I don't get--the hardest part of making a doll, IMO, is getting the setup to do the actual casting, and investing in the resin. Once you have that, why not take a little more time and do an original doll instead of immediately having competition from "the real thing", who does that doll better anyway? Add the added effort to copy paperwork and headplates... and you might as well get a real job. As a "dollmaker", why not make yourself famous, instead of embarrassing yourself by copying?

 

I personally have no problem seeing thieves in this hobby get harassed for being little thieves. Truth hurts, and if someone can't handle being held accountable in a hobby where a lot of money and snobbery is thrown around... you obviously don't have britches big enough to play on our turf. We're doll people, that doesn't necessarily mean we're nice. I can smile saccharine over my teacup like the best of the 1950's housewives.

My sense of entitlement means I don't have to play nicely when I don't want to.

 

It seems like a huge portion of the pro-bootleg people have a battle cry of "but it's no longer available from the company, so what harm is it doing?"

It should be noted that not all recasts are of sold-out LE's. Iplehouse is a perfect example of this. I've started following all these tumblrs on my account to see what's being said, and I am seeing questions like "can they get a Senior delf body?" "How about Souldoll?"

Browsing Taobao will reveal a wealth of recasts of dolls that are currently available directly from the companies. So, no, it's not about getting that sold-out LE they covet. It's about getting what they want for cheap. Period.

So, no matter how much honor those in the pro-recast faction claim to have, it really is about getting your special snowflake doll for the least amount of money possible, even if that doll is a fake. It is an entitlement complex at its finest and most disgusting.

Nothing anyone says will ever convince me otherwise.

If you want to be in this hobby, do it legitimately. Even if it takes time. Even if it's HARD. Even' if it's EXPENSIVE. Or learn to save. Or, heavens forbid, go without. Just because you want it, that doesn't mean you have the right to have it at 50% off. If you do not wish to do these things, I really don't care if the door hits you on the way out or not.

Just wanted to say I love this.

 

The hardest part of making a doll is the hundreds of hours and the natural sculpting abilities of the creator.Anyone could be taught to make molds and cast.Sculpting well not so much.Bootlegs steal the essence of the art and the artist that made it.It is theft of the worst kind,the theft of someones talent that only they possess to make that particular sculpt that they have made and sell to make a living. Den of Thieves much.

 

Another argument that needs to have an ice pick thrown at it: I see a lot of ignorance in what music/movies/etcetera is when someone claims that bootlegging these very physical and tangible dolls is the same as downloading music. It isn't.

Music and movies are intellectual properties, along with books and plays. They are a product that does not suffer the effect of diminishing return the same way my Honda CR-V 2008 does. Dolls fall prey to diminishing return, and ultimately this is why companies keep a product limited or keep updating them. Even Volks, a big wig company, updates their bodies as we've seen with the Gr bodies updating their traditional bodies over the years. Slap a familiar head like Nono on it and it is suddenly something really new! Add with a different dress and she's something chiche and gotta have. She isn't the Nono every already has, and now we've gotta go get her. Because regular Nono, Nono from almost 10 years ago, are all different from UV-Cut Pureskin Nono on an SD13 Graffiti body. She hasn't been done before.

When we buy these dolls we buy one physical production of a patented product. We don't buy the right to press the copy machine. We buy the right to play with them. I may have buy my Honda CR-V 2008, but I didn't buy the rights to make more of them. Even if I wanted to make a hybrid. I'll just have to wait around for Honda to finally make a CR-V Hybrid.

So, when a doll is bootlegged... it is stealing. And didn't your momma teach you that stealing is, oh, I don't know, wrong? I learned my lesson when I was 6 years old and stole some pretty pencils from a classmate. I got my arse smacked for it, and so should any thief.

Here are some vocab for the kiddies: Intellectual property, Diminishing Return

 

I was happy to see Iplehouse speak out against recasts. This hobby is small and these "large" companies are not large. Recasts harm the creators/artists and they harm the community. I don't think this point is disputable.

 

Well, I can kind of sort of give an example from the kimono world.

In the kimono world, you have your kimono that are made from specific materials (silk is the one most foreigners know but also things like wool) with specific techniques for putting the patterns on them (including painting, dying, weaving, and embroidery techniques). A brand-new kimono, especially a very formal one, can easily cost as much as a car -- the last super-expensive one I saw was 2.5 million yen, and I know more expensive ones exist. Kimono also tend to be one-of-a-kind, and it can be rare to find even similar items, let alone identical ones.

Like with BJDs, there is a thriving second-hand kimono market. You can buy second-hand kimono online or in stores all over Japan.

Anyway, getting onto the relevant point, there is also a thriving market for polyester kimono. They can be mass-produced, often come in different standard sizes, are super easy to clean, and are much cheaper than their silk/wool/etc counterparts (which are typically NOT mass-produced, are usually made to order for a specific person, and typically have to be completely taken apart to be cleaned). To my knowledge, polyester kimono are not considered bootlegs or illegitimate items in any way. They are openly sold in kimono shops, often right along with the custom-made, super-expensive ones made out of traditional materials. In fact, you can get polyester kimono custom-made for you. And yet, despite the fact that they don't seem to be considered illegitimate, they are often cited as one of the reasons the traditional kimono-makers are suffering. I remember seeing a documentary once where some kimono-makers and people involved in making the tools used by kimono-makers (like special brushes for the dyes and paints) were talking about the difficulties the craft has been facing in light of a poor economy and the rise of cheaper alternatives. Long story short, if the kimono-makers go, so will a bunch of other traditional industries that pretty much survive because of their ties to the kimono industry.

I'm not saying that bootlegs/recasts of BJDs could actually destroy the entire BJD industry and several associated industries, but there is precedent for cheaper alternatives causing problems for industries based on small (or at least smallish) groups of artists working together to create things. Besides which, we do have statements from Fairyland and Iplehouse, an expression of dismay from the maker of Unoa dolls, and a confession/statement from at least one other BJD artist mentioning things like how small the companies are and that making dolls doesn't generate a huge profit. Given those circumstances I would argue that bootlegs/recasts can in fact cause a lot of damage to the hobby, even if they don't result in the total destruction of it.

 

I'm glad you brought this point out because I hadn't thought of it that way, as to that aspect of why them having a community is bad for the hobby, as it gives them a sense of solidarity, that if someone buys a bootleg, now they have somewhere to go to feel validated in what they did, which in itself could encourage further bad behavior.

 

Most of the people in the other forum don't even have recasts though, many don't even plan on purchasing them. I personally like it because they have a section for action figures and MLP, as well as dollies (I loves me my action figures). Not everyone over there has bootlegs just because there's a section on the forums for it much like not everyone here owns a SOOM just because there's a topic for them. I'm also a member of a Pullip forum and they had a debate on there a while ago when bootleg Blythes started showing up. Some members there have them, some don't.

 

I hate to be Captain Obvious here, but Cloudedmind is right. Having a community that says "Oh, we're all doing it, so bootleg dolls must be OK" is not a good thing for this hobby.

The people who don't own/support bootlegs might not be directly part of the problem, but the bootleggers do make the rest of that community look bad by association because the community at large allows/tolerates the illegal behavior.

 

But bootlegs are clearly considered to be acceptable there. You can have them, talk about them, share them. That's a very very different situation that places like DoA where bootlegs are forbidden and buying them is severely looked down upon. This is giving people who think bootlegs are ok a place to air their views, do their thing and connect to others. In otherwords, to build a community. Whether or not every person on that forum has a bootleg or wants to get one is beside the point.

 

I was thinking more of the recast tumblr page where they tell people how to get recasts. As far as the other forum even if not everyone has a recast it's still a place for people who "do" to congregate. There's no fear of being ridiculed or held responsible for what many deem bad behavior/actions. Anyone can go over there and show off their recast doll if they so want without fear of being banned for doing something deliberately wrong.

 

But whether it is illegal or not there are forums for people who swap music and movies and no other forum can police them because it's not against their TOS. Just because it is against DOA's TOS doesn't mean you can say that another separate forum can't have a small section to the side where such a thing is allowed. If the police shut down such a forum that's one thing but DOA can't run around the web policing all other doll forums. That's just insane to think about.

 

But nowhere did I mention policing the other forum, I just commented on the effects it can have on the hobby. If they want to have their own forum, or if any forum wants to make recasts welcome then fine, it's not like I or anyone else can do anything to stop them. I'm just saying that by doing so they are helping to encourage behavior that can have an adverse effect on others.

 

The other forum is allowed to make their own rules, but that doesn't mean that we have to approve of them. That doesn't mean that we should be quiet about our disapproval. Sometimes it really is ok to speak up and say that something isn't right. Sometimes that's the best thing to do in a given situation. I admit that I don't get the never judging and being over-tolerant (because yes, tolerance can actually be taken too far). If someone doesn't like something they see happening, it is up to them to speak up. If nobody speaks up, it's pretty much a guarantee that things won't change.

The people who are openly buying recast dolls made the decision to do that. The forum made the decision to allow them on. Neither group had to do those things, but those were their freely made choices. Choices have consequences, sometimes good, sometimes bad. If people are uncomfortable that DoAers and other abjd hobbyists (DoA is not the only forum that bans bootlegs) looking down on their actions, then they could have made a different choice. Unfortunately, we honest buyers are stuck with some of the wider ranging consequences of their actions as are the legitimate doll companies which quite frankly, sucks. A lot.

 

"They're getting away with something over there, so I should be able to get away with doing this over here" isn't actually a valid justification for unethical behaviour. It is a highly immature attempt at getting away with something one knows to be wrong.

I can't help but roll my eyes to see it brought out so many times in this thread and compared to so many other completely irrelevant topics (file sharing, generic brands, replicating cars, etc, etc, etc) and I really can think of no mature, rational response to its continued resurgence. It's a stupid rationalization made to justify making a wrong decision that one knows is a wrong decision.

I thought people were taught not to jump off bridges just because all the other kids were doing it back in grade school.

 

In the art world, people who buy fake Dali prints and Picassos aren't "smart shoppers", they are considered retards. Just sayin'.

 

I'm sorry that was a perception error on my part. I think perhaps I'm due for a nice long nap...

 

Agreed. And this has nothing to do with elitism, snobbery, or whatever else people want to label it. It's called doing the right thing. If you don't have ethics, you should have morals. And if you don't have morals, you should have ethics.

And I don't care what country, nationality, or culture you hail from...thievery is a crime everywhere. Not getting caught doesn't mean it's suddenly legal.

I have yet to see anyone be blatantly childish in this argument except when trying to defend or justify bootlegs, copying, downloading, whatever it is...but that's my opinion. And animosity is often a defense mechanism when people are confronted with an activity that is an affront to something they value such as recasts vs. authenticity and are confronted with weak arguments in defense of the activity.

shiori_hime - great illustrated point. Very well said.