Recasts and Bootlegging

As much as I disagree with the whole object of recasting, and I would personally hold a very guilty mentality if I had ever owned one, who am I to stick myself in places to which I don't belong? I would be a hypocrite, to be honest. I've downloaded music without paying for it on a whim, I've considered mock-ups of Angelic Pretty dresses, I've owned generic brand medication opposed to Tylenol, and I can sadly say that I probably have a copy designer purse laying around here. So if it is going to be made an attack upon someone who owns a bootleg ball jointed doll, then we should be attacking every person that has pirated- ever. And saying that we are 'stealing' from the smaller artists, that's why we should fight? Don't you think that billboard chart makers had to start from somewhere? And people aren't rioting against shops like Qutieland in the lolita realm. I'm in no way defending owners of bootleggers, but I'm just trying to understand how we can make social exceptions yet stand full heartedly on this topic.
(Also, on using the term stealing- the technical term is pirating. Stealing - taking an original. Pirating- copying.)

 

Personally , I just started being more awareof this problem recently . I think a guide (like some people have said ) would be usefull to help identify bootlegs/recasts . While I wouldn`t blame an innocent victim of bootleging , I don`t incourage people buying them either . I side with the people here that consider this action of recasting as harming to the original artists/ companies , and I think it`s theft . I would never buy one konwingly . Not that I buy that much from the marketplace ... I like buying dolls new usually , because in my opinion that helps support the companie .
There are many points to disucuss in this debate , but I think some people thouched them very well and there is no need for me to repeat .

-Please excuse my poor english !

 

There are a lot of comparisons made to other things. Whether or not someone downloads music, doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it's ok to buy a recast doll. In this hobby, we know it's a problem, we know it causes harm, we know that it is not considered acceptable practice -- shouldn't that be enough? Nobody's perfect, nobody's a saint, but that doesn't mean that everyone should be let off the hook when this is a big issue in this community. Ultimately, where people stand on these other issues is better taken up elsewhere. I pay for my downloads now, because I'm not buying CDs -- I use my iPod. If I didn't buy my mp3s, the artists would never get any money from me, which would be grossly unfair. I also buy Doctor Who DVDs, because I love the series and want to support the things I love. Those are my personal decision regarding these things. However, that has little bearing on the issue here. Letting the secondary market go to crap and see legit doll companies suffer just because some people download movies or music doesn't make any sense at all.

Also, hobbies do differ from each other. What is acceptable in one may not be in another, because things don't always work the same way. That's why I'd rather focus on dolls, and not on what everybody else is doing out in these other realms. ABJD artists don't seem to get starts as recasters. And to be honest, there's a lot of skills you aren't going to get if all you do is recast -- recasting is going to be very technical, but not very artistic. DZ went from recasting to making their own dolls -- very successfully I might add. However, they seem to be a rather rare exception.

ETA: Pirating is still a form of theft. The bootleggers do not have the rights to reproduce and sell those sculpts. Therefor they are stealing, and there's no way around that.

 

Do you know what pirates did? They stole.

 

Haha, I actually pay for all my MP3s.

But it's really not the same. BJDs are usually bought direct from the very artist who sclupted them. They may have had the doll cast at a factory, but they are selling you the product, they get the profit. And since they don't sell all that many dolls, the profit on each is important.

Whereas buying music is more of a trickle down revenue for the original 'artist'. Pennies per song.

Stealing both is wrong, but stealing music is less likely to put the band out of business.

 

The comparisons to clothing don't quite work as well as comparisons to bootleg resin kits or PVC figures as clothing designs cannot be copyrighted or protected by law because they are useful items, thus the fashion industry has always dealt with lower priced knockoffs of higher end designs. Although with that, trademarks for brands are protected, as are I believe fabric patterns?, so the reason why fake handbags are illegal and can be taken down are because they are generally replicating the original bag down to the trademarks and trying to pass themselves off as the original pieces.

But anyway, Taco is right. Just because some people download mp3s on the internet doesn't make it all right to buy recast dolls.

 

VonMonSTAR I don't think anyone's denying that most people have, at some point, either unwittingly or knowingly ended up with something that's pirated in some way or another, but I also don't think anyone can deny that knock off's in a hobby as small as this WILL have a knock on effect in some way.

Regardless of which side of the fence you fall on, whether it be a reaction on the state of the secondary market, or the smaller companies themselves suffering financial and emotional hits that may mean they give up (and this IS an emotional issue for a lot of the artists involved here), this recent "choosing of the sides" is going to effect us all now, whether we like it or not, so for me anyway, it's less about making social exceptions and more about choosing to put aside the emotive nature of the thing in an attempt to try and find out where the hell we all go from here without this descending into a mass of mud slinging and internet trolling any more than it already has.

A sort've moral truce from both sides who firmly believe they're in the right in order to find a middle ground thats workable and acceptable to all, if you see what I mean.

Possibly a bit overly hopeful, but hey, what else are we gonna do eh?! Pointing fingers and flailing got us nowhere did it *snort*

 

Having a forum and/or forum section that allows it does not make it right! Being accepted by some does not make it right! I can't wrap my mind around this sense of logic. Nobody said anything about DoA policing the other forums. The general consensus is that recasts and bootlegs have no place on DoA and to allow a spot on the forum for them here is to foster acceptance which most here do not want.

There are downloading communities for everything. You can look at the music industry now vs. ten years ago and see how that has been effected by unethical downloading. When you can grasp the bigger picture you start to grasp the slippery slope that recasts and bootlegging do to the artists and the hobby.

Those that own recasts can go form their own community. They can gripe about DoA being "elitist" and "snobby". They can reassure each other that buying recasts is ok because every other industry does it and because they are entitled to own their grail doll no matter what.

However, if bjd companies start going under, start charging more, or start selling to exclusive markets only...these bootleg/recast communities should not be surprised when the finger pointing begins and it points at them.

 

Actually, there have been a number of studies done by economists that indicate that piracy has had a fairly minimal role in the decline of the recording industry. In fact it has gone a long way in leveling the playing field between the corporate giants and the small independents. Which is why I don't think the music analogy is an appropriate one and should really be retired on both sides.

Think of it more in terms of Wal-mart. Wal-mart has successfully leveraged its business model against countless small businesses in this country. They crowd out their competitors by importing cheap goods from overseas, and use their clout to bully suppliers into supplying only to them and/or providing them with goods at the prices Wal-mart wants. After doing that, they will still copy their suppliers' goods and undercut their prices with their store brand. Yes, the price is great, but eventually the only thing available to buy will be what Wal-mart wants to sell.

It's not a perfect analogy, but interesting nonetheless.

 

because they are entitled to own their grail doll no matter what

See, this is what I don't get..they wasted hundreds of dollars and they still don't have their grail doll, which would be the ACTUAL DOLL. Heloo...tastes like chicken is not chicken.

 

Generic/store-brand drugs aren't bootlegged items. They're quite legal. They're made after the original developer's patent expires.
Dress styles aren't protected by copyright. So, as long as your dress doesn't have a fake Angelic Pretty label on it, it's not a bootleg (illegal), it's just an imitator (legal).
The free music, yes, we all seem to agree that is theft.

But as Taco & Kim said, that's all moot anyway. Regardless of how many legally-/illegally-gotten goods you surround yourself with... none of these things would make buying a bootlegged doll any less illegal, anyway.

(However, since those two particular things aren't illegal, now you can stop beating yourself up about them. ^^)

Whaaaaat?? Not even the Man-Made Chickens from "Eraserhead"!?! XD

 

After spending a little time in the waiting room section of the recast forum, I can say that two of the excuses for buying recasts just don't hold water.

First: "poverty". If people are buying recasts to save a couple of bucks, why are individuals buying so many in one fell swoop? At this time there are several people in the waiting room who have ordered, and while a couple seem to be limiting themselves to one doll, another person has what she referred to as a "semi-big" order into one recaster, another is talking about spending her next paycheck and a third is ordering six dolls as soon as her credit is renewed. And the forum owner has four dolls incoming.

It's really not a question of not being able to afford one doll-- in the cases above it's about people being greedy.

Second: "recasts are made for the Chinese market and the impoverished people who live there." China may be the original market for these dolls, but at this point it is irrelevant. We are talking about a western forum here--about people who don't live in China buying these dolls. What difference does it make why these dolls were originally recast? Apart from that, recasts are about the same price as original Chinese dolls, and those companies appear to be doing quite well, even with the low salaries of the typical Chinese. Apparently no one told these companies that Chinese nationals couldn't afford their dolls. But a good number of Chinese can afford dolls because China has a burgeoning upper class who buy all sorts of luxury items, including dolls. Shanghai has a Cartier, and Gucci, and just about every other type of luxury store. And I'm sorry, but I just don't see your average Apple employee living eight to a dorm room and working ridiculous numbers of hours per week buying either an original or recast doll. If your personal space is one level of a bunkbed stacked four high are you going to have room to store a doll? These aren't the people buying recasts. It's a person with more money and space who just doesn't want to pay retail.

But regardless of a person's residence it's fair to say that recasts are made for people who lack the integrity and honesty to buy the real thing. A person with both of those qualities who really wants a bjd will save until he or she can buy one.

 

Bleh!
I'm surprised this is even a "controversy"...do people with Goach bags sit around on their own forums congratulating each other on the great crap bags they bought? Is the owner of a cardboard "Lexus" going to stand around saying "isn't it great I am so smart and bought a cardboard Lexus? Doesn't drive but hey, photographs like the real thing! Go me!"

 

Hey! Back off my cardboard Lexus. She's a sensitive piece of performance engineering mounted to foam core... It's alright baby, mama loves you.

 

I'm going to assume, possibly wrongly, that to them it's all about outward appearance. Essentially having a love for the outward appearance of the doll and not necessarily where it comes from. As long as the doll basically looks the way they want it to, it doesn't matter that it's a recast. They don't necessarily want Williams, so much as the look of Williams. So if that's all they want then to them, yes they did get their grail doll because it looks like him, even if it isn't from the proper company.

 

Yeah, but what happens when another Lexus lover comes by and wants to "look under the hood"? Nobody is looking so great then...they just look like either a fool or a con artist, and neither is exactly a status symbol.

(Mosiacwolf made tea come out of my nose)

 

Yes buying bootlegs is stealing from small artists and we should really give a crap about them,they are the very people that created these little resin treasures.Even big doll makers are minnows in the corporate world.Look at it this way.Small artist Mary gets an idea for a doll,spends several weeks/months drawing,sculpting in her studio that she pays rent,utilities,employee wages to keep running,finishes her new doll,sends it for casting or casts it herself with the equipment she bought,assembles,faceups and takes pics for her website which she has to pay for,packs the dolls she sells in nice packaging to the customers whos numerous questions shes answered and can now sit back and rake in the gigantic(not)profit of her artistic labours.Whereas Joe Bootlegger just buys Marys doll,opens the box,takes it apart and casts it in a shed in his back yard.I dont know of any way that I could spin this into not being theft.And if anyones morals allow buying bootlegs because they just dont care about the actual human whos work they just stole they really should be tough enuf to handle the fact that many people will disagree with the practice.

 

You know, recasting is the 3D equivalent of buying an artist's print and then photocopying it to sell. You can use a high quality paper you want, but it'll still be a copy. You wouldn't buy a copied print, would you? It's the same way with recasts, lol.

 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that DOA is policing the web; we have no desire to do so. We want everyone to make the ethical decision, but we're not going to hunt anyone down to do it. What we do want is for people to keep their bootlegs off of DoA. As we've said before, it's a matter of respect for the staff, the community mores, and the fact that the forum is financially supported by small, legitimate doll companies who are struggling for their existence during a world wide recession. I don't think this is a difficult request to honor.

Speaking as someone who works with resin pretty regularly, I will tell you that while all resin is toxic (excepting perhaps bio-resin, which is made from... I believe nuts?), some resin is more toxic than others and some ways of working with the resin leave a more stable end-product (which can relate to both toxicity AND durability).

I've been casting in resin for ten years now and I've used resins that gave me hives or literally made me ill, despite following my usual safety precautions. Certain brands (or types) of resin are also more likely to cause people to have allergic reactions, either in the processing or even in customizing the finished dolls. If the resins aren't cured properly, there can also be a gradual leeching of chemicals to the surface. Once I cast a head with the wrong balance of part A and B, and it was solid, but kept letting off a sort of oily chemical substance. I also used resin that was past its shelf-life and it didn't cure properly... making a piece with a nicely cured outer crust that was filled with a very nasty uncured resin that was almost jelly-like and stuck to everything like napalm.

Some resins are also just not made for that application and their properties aren't necessarily suitable for a BJD. For example, they may be brittle and chip, they may be a little too soft and will eventually deform under the tension of the elastic stringing, they may be too smooth and may not be very good for applying a faceup. Another way to lower the cost of casting is to use fillers, like porcelain dust or microballoons. Both impact the physical qualities of the doll.

Your other myth points have already been refuted rather well, so I'm going to end there.

 

Seconding the "some resin is more toxic than others." I've never had a problem with subtractive modifications on many many dolls, until I did some work on a Leeke head. The resin out gassed a horrible gasoline smell when cut with a ceramic knife. It made me so ill that I will never buy one of their dolls ever again.