Recasts and Bootlegging

Ah thank you, and an extra thanks for the linked sources.

 

There is both a national and international copyright law. Some countries, like China, do not have a national copyright law, so recasters are not acting illegally within Chinese borders. As soon as they start to use foreign products, however, or sell them to people abroad, they are. Which is the case here.

 

LondonAfterMidnight, since you're in the USA, check the law here:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.pdf
Page 8 for definition of goods subject to copyright ((5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;).

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.pdf
Page 158 for infringment of copyright ((a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section
106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be.).

Therefore, introducing recasts in the country is illegal because it violates the copyright law.

 

What about a community dedicated to cutting up tyres of cars owned by people other than themselves? They are not really hurting people and they only target expensive brand cars, so it's okay when they're honest and as long as they are honest they should have a place in our community.
How about a community where purse snatchers can talk to each other about the bags and purses they've snatched from their victims or the best ways to rip a bag from the hands of a stranger on the streets? As long as they are honest, they should have their own section in the community, right? Purse snatchers are people too, you know?

Illegal recasts are illegal. They are illegal as they violate copyrights and if you want them to stop being illegal, you should lobby for different copyright laws. When the law regarding copyrights have changed people are free to talk about their legal recasts and claim their place in the hobby.

 

Let me step up and say that none of the moderators have knowingly purchased recasts; the entire mod staff is vehemently anti-recast. Don't perpetuate this rumor as it is without basis and it comes off as the pro-recast community just trying to slander the staff.

This does not mean that there aren't any recasts in any of the moderators' collections... but all were purchased in good faith from sellers who were presenting their dolls as legitimate. I know there are a few Forever Dolls from back in 2004, when people were buying based on tiny, grainy pictures on Yahoo!Japan (and were shocked by the dolls that arrived). One of our moderators who retired last year has an uncanny knack for buying dolls that were later found to be recasts. If you check out the Phantomdoll Siamese bootleg thread on DOA, you'll see it was actually started by her as she explored her concerns and publicly researched the issue.

Otherwise, these dolls have not been posted on DoA.

 

Gosh, that is exceptionally unfortunate. Thank you very much for the prompt clarification.

 

Any time. To be honest, it really pisses me off when people start rumors about "the moderators" as though we're just programs that run on the server. These are very personal attacks on us as people that try to call into question our integrity as individuals, as though people are trying to make us doubt each other as well. We're all friends and there is no one on staff whom I do not trust or wouldn't stand up immediately to defend.

 

This is what's so weird to me. I mean, it's a sweet post but in a way this is like finding out your child stole money from your wallet, and then sit down and have a nice polite conversation with him or her about it, without anger or confrontation and without punishment or sanctions because you consider that aggressive. Oh, and without loosing trust in them, because that's just unfair since stealing doesn't automatically means they will do other shady things.

This way of putting it also somehow puts some responsability on me, or the artists, or other people against theft for trying to 'sway' these people. To not be angry because apparently that is bad (harrassment even) but instead try to pull at their heartstrings in order to make them see the light or something. Why would I want to? If they are immoral enough to do this I really don't want to have to deal with them period. If they are swayed by arguments they can do that by themselves, by reading threads such as this, and see if they can find a moral conscience in themselves somewhere. They are free to 'come out' and come back to legit dollcollecting anytime they want. I might even respect that.
But I am in no way under any obligation to caress their little ego's and try to show them the error of their ways respectfully. They are not entitled to my respect. They are stealing. They are not ashamed of it. They try to justify it in numerous ways. This is criminal behaviour, plain and simple, and they aren't showing much awareness or remorse about it.

 

I think that most of the people making the argument about how bjd recasts are no different from bootlegs of other items realize it's not a perfect fit. That's obvious. The most similar community is probably resin kit figurines and I just don't know enough about it to draw parallels.

However, and I think this is the part that is difficult to articulate, they feel that it is unfair that they are being called "animals" and being compared to people who "slash tires" and "child molesters" and that they will have people "stop being friends" for stealing when many other people in the community have stolen music, and bought other bootleg items. I've seen it repeated over and over again that stealing is stealing and that there is NO excuse for stealing and then others turn right around and make excuses for stealing music or other bootlegs. We state over and over that bootlegging is wrong but then make excuses and justifications for ourselves...much like what the recast buyers are doing. I do think it's wrong to steal regardless from who you do it, but I also think that a lot of these arguments sound very similar when you strip them down.


Also, to the person a couple of pages back asking why it's called "bootlegging," it's a term from the Prohibition Era, when people would smuggle illegal alcohol in their boots.

 

@delicate disaster: I agree that some of the comparison's you're citing are a bit on the extreme side. It doesn't change the fact that what the bootleggers are doing is wrong.

******************************************************

I get the impression that the people who are throwing around the argument that we shouldn't be upset about doll bootlegging because so many people pirate music/movies/software assume that most of the people on this thread are, in fact, rabid media pirates. I would hope that it is untrue, since I do agree it would be hypocritical to get mad about one thing and not the other.

I'd rather give my fellow doll owners the benefit of the doubt and assume they aren't rabid media pirates.

 

I don't see why we need to cheerily pursue friendships with internet strangers if we don't agree with their morals. These aren't family members or real-life friends; frankly, the only thing that most of us connect on is BJD... and if we have wildly differing ideologies, guess what, we're probably not going to have much in common with each other. I don't hate recast supporters (who's got the energy?), but I'm not going to bother with them and I'm certainly not going to feel like my existence is poorer for it.

I doubly don't see why we would need to give these same unethical internet strangers the benefit of the doubt in a monetary transaction either. That seems foolish. I'm not taking risks just to prove I'm open-minded.

Sorry if it rubs anyone the wrong way, but I just can't think of any "right" reason to support an industry built on stealing from artists.

 

Could you provide a reference that shows China doesn't have a national copyright law? Because it appears that in fact they do:

http://www.chinaiprlaw.com/english/laws/laws10.htm

And an article about it:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/10/bootleg_nation.html

 

You know, for a long time I didn't have an opinion on recasts and bootlegs. I didn't know anything about it, I'd never seen one, and I kind of laughed the whole thing off as being some weird random one off type occurrence.

These days however, I'm worried.

No, I don't have to do business with people who's behavior I find repulsive, but I think I should speak up in defense of what I believe is right. I'm not going to attack them or their forum, I'm not going to bash people on their private pages, but I honestly feel that bootlegging is wrong, even pathetic, and I really don't understand what moral justification could possibly make it less or not so.

I cannot afford to buy any dolls this year- so I'm not going to. What on earth makes a bjd so necessary to you that you'd go buy a fake one? If you can't afford the real thing, then simply wait until you can! And if you don't think you'll ever be able to, then maybe you should start attempting to organize your life so that maybe you might. Never say never, but recognize when something is out of your reach maybe?

Dolls are LUXURY items, and a very small hobby at that- it's not like a fake Gucci bag where you feel richer or cooler because people will see you with it(not that it's okay, just that that's the usual rationale behind those types of knock offs), most non-doll people find them creepy!
Why is it necessary to go and steal if you can't have one? Is it a sense of entitlement? Is it modern societies' mad obsession with instant gratification? I just don't get it.

A recast is not and never will be as good or even in the same class as an original. It's nothing but a shrunken McDoll with none of the artistry, care and cohesion of the original. That is my opinion- which I am entitled to. I won't paint them, I don't want to see them, and I fully support the forum policy of not allowing them on. I'm worried about the marketplace, but I feel that it's infinitely more secure than eBay for example. I don't even dare look at anything resin on eBay, and taobao is practically a swear word.

-rant ended-

 

LondonAfterMidnight wrote

"Honestly, I needed that fake Monet for theraputic reasons"...what?

Annnd..they are buying the recast using a 1000.00 computer and they can't afford a doll?, when you can get PERFECTLY NICE BJD DOLLS for 200.00. And as for "WAH it's limited and gone", ALL my limiteds I got off the secondary market, when they were no longer the new hotness. And I don't buy dolls I feel I can't afford. Because they are..dolls, not insulin. People, get a grip. Like Teruchan.

 

Whitewaif, I thought that many of the people who said they wouldn't be friends, weren't talking about internet strangers, but people they actually know in the real world. I think I remember reading them say, "if I found out my friend had recasts, I wouldn't be their friend anymore." To me, that implies real-life friends and that seems extreme. I'm not saying you have to be friends with recast-buyers, but as I said previously, there just seems to be a lot of backlash for doll-buying when there is very little backlash for other types of piracy. If it's wrong, it's wrong regardless of who it hurts, right?

Kymera, I'd like to think we don't take for the sake of taking, but I'll be the first to admit that I didn't legally purchase everything on my hard drive, probably not even half of it. I do try to buy cds and things when I can, but I also listen to a lot of foreign music that I would have to import and what have you in order to obtain it. I have imported cds before, and I plan to do it in the future, but my collection is not "pure" and I cannot in good conscious call other people out for doing exactly what I've done for similar reasons. Please don't think that I'm railing at you, I completely agree with what you've said, but I think I should be honest myself.

:edit: To say, that in spite of all that, I purchase almost all of my stateside music (unless a friend offers to make me a copy) and I buy most dvds that become available. I'm a pirate sure, but I do try to help the original artist out when I can.

 

Just to check, since there's a lot of people accusing us of double standards by saying fake handbags and illegal music downloads are ok.

Has anyone here said to a recast collector that they think these things are ok?

If you have to lie about what the other side says to make your point, why even bother.

 

This. Thank you. I read a rant last night that was up in arms over people buying recasts being called 'criminal,' as though this was some sort of bully tactic on the part of those of us who are rather outraged by this trend. To me, it's pretty basic: Recasts = stealing = criminal. I'm not sure where the discrepancy lies, but I sure as anything am not about to stroke anyone's ego or soothe anyone's feelings who's actively participating in buying/selling/supporting/defending recasts. You're (general 'you' applies) committing an illegal act, man up and realize there are consequences--some of which involve many people in this hobby thinking very negatively of you. And I'm definitely one of those people.

 

not sure if anyone has made this point yet... too many pages to read through

my only fear where this is concerned is that honestly im 100% positive that if someone sold me a recast or bootleg i wouldnt know the difference. im not as artistically into this hobby as some people are... for me the dolls are a way of taking the characters from stories i write and giving them physical form... a version of them if you will that i can physically hold and can direct my love for the character at!


so honestly im not looking at the specifics, like i would be just as happy to buy a damaged and scarred up half-destroyed dolly as i would a new one as long as the face was ok and still looked enough like the character in my mind that i could still give the doll that identity!

but this also means i dont pay attention to the little details so honestly if i saw a bootleg doll on the marketplace and as long as it looked enough like the origial doll im looking for and as long as they didnt tell me it was bootleg i would probably buy it without any clue or idea that it was fake!

but then if someone recognised it as a fake and told me about it/stopped being my friend over it/harrassed me about it i think it would depress the hell out of me cus once its home and ive idetified a character with it then its a member of my family and its not going anywhere! cus im oe of the people in the doll community that doesnt sell dollies becuase it would take a true disaster to get me to ever part with any of my dollies! (i do not beleive in selling a dollie once its home and ive given it a name!)

so im sure there are other people like me too and in our case we are completely dependent on the honesty and integrity of the sellers in the doll community to not be selling us or directing us to the sellers of bootlegs and recasts!

and in our case what should we do if we accidentally buy one of these dolls... are we expected to just throw it away simply because we are ignorant and trusting? even if weve already made a home for that dollie in our hearts and couldnt imagine getting rid of it? (and no i dont want to hear "get rid of it and go buy a real one" cus no two of the same doll are really the same! i have two dollzone Mos and have handled many others of them and i promise you no two DZ mos have the same feel...)

im not justifying the purchase of bootlegs or recasts im simply defending those who may have bought a dollie in ignorance and now have come to love it and cant bear to part with it! cus while fortunately i havent fallen pray to a bootleg doll yet im always afraid i might accedentally buy one one day not kowing the difference...

 

little-reisuke, I don't think anyone (here at least) would harass you because you were "ignorant and trusting" etc., and you'd be surprised how many of us view our dolls the same way you do- as "ways of taking the characters from stories i write and giving them physical form... a version of them if you will that i can physically hold and can direct my love for the character at".

However, if such a thing happened to me, and I found out (and I would hope that someone on DoA would be kind enough to point this out to me) that I had purchased a recast, I don't think I'd be able to look at it the same way again. As much love as I might have for a doll, owning something that's some kind of falsified half-breed mock up would be devastating to me, and I think I'd want to chuck whatever it is out the nearest window. That said, I understand your attachment to your dolls- but in a situation like that, you can't honestly expect others to support your decision to keep it knowing that it's a recast. Some might, and many won't- that's something you would be accepting by deciding to keep it. I guess what I'm saying is: if that happened to you, and you wanted to continue to own that doll and treat it like the rest, don't expect people's sympathy to extend any further. Ignorance is one thing, obliviousness is another.

 

Some people I consider doll friends are people I still know in real life through meets and events, and yes, if I found out they had recasts, that would be the end of our friendship. Even beyond the recasting thing, I cannot tolerate someone lying to me about something I feel strongly about. And if they're lying about that, what else are they lying about? If it was someone who I actually consider a close personal friend, the lying may even be more detrimental to me because I would have placed my trust in someone who I care about and who then abused that trust.

I know people who are fine hanging out with pot heads, but who absolutely cannot stand cigarette smokers. Everyone has their own deal breakers and hot button topics and sometimes the deal breakers seem similar to things they're not as bothered by. Downloading mp3's doesn't set me off like recasts do, and I don't actually think they are comparable offenses, so I am not surprised people's attitudes towards both can be different. Or in another random example, I love sharks. I consider both shark finning and whaling things that should be stopped, but whaling doesn't set me off into the angry, frothing rage that shark finning does. If I were to find out a friend was chowing down on shark fin soup and whale sushi, I'd be upset about the shark fin soup.

I like to support artists I like. I buy books. I buy cds and mp3s and blu rays and dvds and manga. I buy weekly comic issues since I don't want to wait for the trades to be released, and then I buy the trades so I have nice hardbound copies. I am nowhere near rich and generally break about even every month. If I can't afford what I want, I either save for it or do without it.