Recasts and Bootlegging

If you did know someone who owns a recast, you can still say it's not okay without being mean and without cutting off all ties. You say you're indifferent as long as they don't hurt people, but illegal things are illegal for a reason. It's because illegal things do hurt others.

If someone snatches your bag from your shoulder, it's wrong. It could be that the bag contained only a book and your lunch, so you're not really that "hurt" by the loss, but it's still wrong. It could be an old bag that you had been able to use for years ("the artist already made money when the pirates bought the original"), it could be that you have plenty of other bags ("the artist can still sell their dolls"), it could be that you were thinking of getting rid of the bag anyway ("it's a limited edition doll that's no longer sold"), but nobody had the right to take your bag away from you unless you gave them your permission to do so.

You can still be friends with someone who did something illegal. It's not like you have to shun them forever and ever, but observing wrong behaviour and keeping quiet is the same as saying it's okay, because you let it continue without consequence.
I do admit that it's more clear cut to say "You do know that's wrong, right?" when someone says "I stole a bag today." than when they say "I illegally downloaded a movie today.", but doing nothing is still doing something.

 

Last week I had to deal with a US company who were using one of my original illustrations on a T Shirt they had for sale on their website for $19.99. Basically someone had been into my etsy store, bought a print and then scanned it and thought it was fine to remove my signature and copyright and print it up to make them some easy profit. Thankfully this case seems to have been settled and they have now removed the item BUT.... it made me feel cr*p!

It isn't the first time I have had my art stolen and each time it made me feel victimized and paranoid and wonder why the hell I bother. Why do I work so hard to produce original art if that means I am just providing some scummy, lazy, immoral thief a way of making some easy cash. I don't make a great deal of money from the prints I sell direct and I imagine that, despite the high price of BJD's, the artist who make them are not rolling in the profits either.

The time it took for me to create that image was a mere fraction of the hours and hours it must take a BJD sculptor to perfect their dolls, whether they hand sculpt OR use computer 3D sculpting software. It's taken months of their life, eaten up the majority of their spare time if they also hold down a full-time job. Why should some low-life make a penny from their hard work but the original artist? Art has never been an easy career choice and never will, if you want to support artists then never buy rip-offs.

I also kind of feel that Duskkodesh is being far too lenient on those who knowingly buy recasts. While I don't agree with cyber bullying, a lot of these people need educating. You hear the same mewling excuses about how they work hard for their money and can't afford the full price item (there's the rest of us with our money trees, I guess?) so why shouldn't they have something they want for less? It's such a bratty entitled attitude to life and you cannot tell me that it deserves to go unchallenged when it is being put out there in public?

 

I agree with educating. Being indifferent creates an atmosphere in which illegal things get an air of being okay. Like the "everybody is doing it and nobody says it's wrong, so it's okay for me to do it too" argument for pirated software, movies and music that was pretty strong in my circle of friends a few years ago, but now we have "legal software only" LAN-parties. Partially because my friends and I are now graduated and have jobs, so the "It's too expensive!" argument doesn't fly anymore and partially because some of my friends are now programmers who create software. It's a big difference when you can actually talk to someone and know how much work goes into creating and marketing a computer program. The source you steal from gets a face too and nobody had to be bullied to create that kind of awareness.

 

This topic gets revived a lot and this is the only post I will write about this because I do wish this topic [about what we think] would become as banned as bootlegs themselves.
It just doesn't lead to anything constructive and I'm a prone arguer and not a debater, so I will spare myself the risk of losing my cool by making this my first and only post on this thread.

I'm a bit concerned with how people go about dealing with this or how they justify what is or isn't considered theft. So now, stealing from a musician by downloading their music is "not as bad as buying a bootleg bjd" because the pirated content isn't sold for profit? Are you serious? That is possibly as lame of a justification as the one people buying recasts are using. If stealing is stealing and all stealing is bad, then even if you aren't paying for that pirate song (or software, or movie, etc.) you're still stealing and it is still bad. Just because you're stealing from a bigger company doesn't mean you aren't causing damage. To think otherwise is absolutely ridiculous.

It's important to note something else. If defending or protecting the hobby leads you to become a criminal is that justifiable? Harassment is a crime. Yes, piracy is a bad crime too, but you can't fight crime with crime, people. If someone stabs someone and you run them over with your car in retaliation... Well. Do the math. I've seen so many, many equally wrong actions being committed by those who defend the legitimacy of this hobby that it has made me want to leave all forums altogether. I hate bullying with a passion. I admit to a special bias against bullies even. There are better and more effective ways of fighting against this than that. And not to mention smarter ways.

Most importantly we should target the ones who sell and not who buy. By eliminating the one who sells then there won't be anyone to buy anything. It's like when Megaupload got taken down; now those who would download pirated content from there have nothing to download anymore.

As I said, there are smarter ways to go about trying to fix this than running around saying what is theft or what isn't or harassing people who buy things we don't agree on. Instead of making the same old thread about what we think of recast (which has been BEYOND stated) why not start one about how to help the artist we so passionately defend?

 

While I would never personally own a recast or a back door dolly I do find the information coming out about them recently helpful in identifying recasts and, more worryingly, showing how hard it IS to tell the difference in some cases. It's highlighted a problem I've never really thought about when it comes to buying second hand.


I've had my art stolen (and sold) a few times now as well and it's an awful somewhat helpless feeling when it happens and because of that I'm VERY anti theft. (where as, admittedly, I was just basic anti theft.)
I would never harass someone for owning one mind you. It's not like it would change anything. If they're going to buy one they're going to buy one and I cant change that. Nor do I shun them. A friend could own one and I'd still class them as a friend. I have friends that pirate music. I don't really think any different about them for it.

I do heart sorry for people who have bought a recast by accident or have been scammed. They must worry that people will chastise them and think they're part of the group who are actively buying them.

 

I must admit I was waiting for this to turn up here, I'm surprised it took this long, but that may be because we were all too busy on other sites discussing it already.

There is no point attempting to change the minds of those willing to buy a recast, they all KNOW what they're doing is morally dubious, they just don't CARE and are unwilling to listen to any point of view but their own. I'm not going to waste my breath trying to talk round someone who has convinced themselves they're in the right to own a bootleg, nor am I going to throw abuse. I see no point and it gets neither side anywhere useful.

The recasters themselves are where the buck stops with this, and that is sadly out of our hands since the companies they routinely rip off need to handle their own copyright protection through the courts in whatever country they can lay their hands on willing to take the case. The very best we can do, as a community, is educate the new members coming in on the detrimental effects it has on those tiny companies and their abilities to remain in business.

From a personal standpoint, the recent Tumblr debacle has opened my eyes to the sheer SCALE of the recast owning members of this community as a whole and how many people are quite happy to lie to even their FRIENDS about the source of their dolls.

Just how MANY recasts are there on DoA right now? In photo's, in discussions and, regardless of the assurances the mods have given, in the MP's, because I don't believe for a single moment that all recasts stay with their original owner and where else would you sell that Soom Monthly but here, where you know you can get upwards of a grand for it if it LOOKS real enough to pass. I'd be interested to count up the number of Sards and Beryls for instance, to see if it tops the officially released numbers and by how much.

It has destroyed the secondary market for me, I know I'll never buy a doll from the MP's here again and I know I'm not alone in that which is the worst of this to me, really, because a good portion of my enjoyment of the hobby came from rescuing damaged, second hand dolls to fix them up and send them to new homes but it's simply not safe to do that anymore.

Go on then, go and make it. If it's an issue that irritates you that much, go out there and use your ideas to fix it! It's all any of us dragged into this endless bloody discussion are trying to do after all and regardless of which side of the fence any of us fall on, we're all stuck dealing with the same hideous mess of a situation that's only been dredged up yet again thanks to Tumblr and it's total lack of give a toss when it comes to artistic integrity.

 

There is a big difference between 1 customer buying your doll at one point and the 50/100/200 customers you need to sell a batch. Selling recasts is very much an issue about money lost, because the perpetrator steals potential customers away.

1. Suddenly an artist not only has to compete with other artists, she has to compete with her own work, sold for much less.
2. Because recasts are often sold for less, it damages the sense of what a doll is worth. If suddenly the market were flooded with recasts going for half the price, it would be impossible for artists to come up with a competitive price. Making dolls is expensive - most artist have a side-job for a reason, they're not making millions.
3. When a company looses too much income, they won't be able to survive. Recasts have the potential to destroy the (secondary) market.

I'm very much against recasts and condoning purchasing them. To me, it is absolutely justified to tell someone what they did was wrong, when they did buy one, but it isn't okay to harrass or assault others.

Something else:
The argument that stealing movies, games etc is acceptable, because the companies behind it are huge money trees, doesn't add up. I used to work for a game company and recently lost my job, because my company has a huge cash flow problem not only caused by the current economy, but also due the sudden flux of piracy. Publishers no longer get their money and as a result, developers won't either.

Big boys like EA, or Ubisoft will probably survive. That's great, but I've seen many smaller, independent studios topple over and fall the past few years and I think that the entertainment industry will become a mono-culture if this continues.

It's not only the company's job to create a healthy market. We, as buyers, are equally responsible.

 

People who buy recasts are cheap assholes. They deserve scorn and judgment, and I have no problem with them being treated rudely. It is something we shouldn't tolerate to protect people who wish to be honest andto have an honest after market and support the people who actually matter - the doll companies.

The fact that the Tumblr comm and discussion are all done anonymously speaks volumes about the intentions of recast owners. If you think they're fine to own, actually own to the fact you own one. The only reason they won't is because they know it's wrong and honestly, I am convinced they all want to cheat people and sell their recasts as legitimate original dolls here on DoA.

End of discussion as far as I am concerned.

 

Censoring discussion on the subject is as good as condoning the practice of bootlegging. While arguments might be largely circular in nature sweeping them under the carpet wont make the problem magically go away... it's about as effective as sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and shouting "LALALALALALALALALA".

 

It is, because there is no one out there who will do it for us.
The normal doll-owners who like to have a healthy aftermarket, the ones who don't want to be worried when they buy a doll second hand etc. are the ones who need to do something, because who should do it instead?
The real police doesn't care about such thing, it's a problem inside our beloved hobby.
If we just sit here and say "Well, whatever, just let people do what they want" it will only get worse.

The thing that upsets me the most is this whole "I pretend it's an original doll in front of my friends/the forum/etc.".
If someone is so greedy that he goes the illegal route he should have the guts to admit "Yeah, it's a recast, I didn't want to go through the hassle to get the original one/ I just didn't want to pay the real price/ I was so greedy I couldn't except not to own something for once".
If you do something that's morally not 100% right, stand up, admit it and be prepared for what might coming.

The fact that recast owners also send their stuff to artists without informing them is something that disgust me to no end.
If I'd find out that someone had sent me a recast on purpose (and not some newbie who got ripped off or whatever) I'd call them out publically on all the platforms I use and in all their feedback threads.
I'd tell people not to buy from them in the future, because even certificates are not a guarantee anymore since some recasts have faked certificates nowadays :/

This whole "we are always all nice and forgiving" mentality on DoA is, in such a case, the absolute wrong way to go.

Edit:
I know these tumblrs and also the newly opened recast forum (a friend from Spain told me they already have one for a longer time since it's common there to buy Soom MDs as recast -> I won't buy a Soom from Spain anymore; and that goes on with different countries and different favourite companies).
On one hand of course it's interesting to get these informations so identifying a recast might become easier.
The whole "Recasts don't really exist lalalalala" mentality the last years was maybe not the best route...but to post shop links, reviewing them etc. is the absolutely wrong way.
I know a lot of people who would only buy recasts if they knew how easily they can get them, that's why I am quite grateful that in the German community the whole recast topic still seems to be some kind of fairytale to a lot of the owners.

 

Lulu: "There is no point attempting to change the minds of those willing to buy a recast, they all KNOW what they're doing is morally dubious, they just don't CARE and are unwilling to listen to any point of view but their own. I'm not going to waste my breath trying to talk round someone who has convinced themselves they're in the right to own a bootleg, nor am I going to throw abuse. I see no point and it gets neither side anywhere useful."

I agree but only up to a point, but I think there is a good reason to talk to them and try to get them to understand what they are doing is wrong and how detrimental it is to the hobby they say they love. Because while 90% of the people who knowingly buy recasts are hard faced and just don't give a toss, there will be a few who maybe just haven't given it that much thought. They bought a cheap doll and thought "wow, bargain, how clever am I for saving money" and once they have it explained to them the serious knock on effects of what they have done, maybe, just maybe, they will never do it again.

There is a big difference between pointing out facts to a person and engaging in a dialogue to outright harrassment though. Of course some people will buy recasts totally unwittingly and talking to them gives them an opportunity to explain that fact, rather than have a ton of abuse hurled at them, which usually just makes people defensive and their views more entrenched anyway.

 

I totally agree Vonbonbon, the recast tumblr has a place in that things like the comparison photos they said they where going to post would be useful for all our reference, the shop reviews and what is essentially a buying guide is crossing a line in my opinion. It's obvious the people running it are pro-bootlegs though so I can't see our disapproval making much difference in that regard.

I was definitely very naive of how far the issue went and just how many recasts are around in the community until the confession tumblrs started. I think here on DoA we're very much in our own little bubble where all the bad stuff isn't allowed so we never really realise these things unless it's something we're involved in. Sadly the problem doesn't even only effect limited dolls where it could be argued the companies aren't going to make more money off the sculpt anyway (which is still a piss poor argument) because there's plenty of standard dolls that get recast too. I know of at least one big name owner who's owned up to owning recasts of standard dolls in the past because they didn't approve of the price difference between the Korean and English store of a certain company, of course they didn't admit which doll in their collection was the copy but it still goes to show the issue isn't limited to the fringes so I can understand why people are getting nervous about buying from the MP. And that's really, really sad frankly.
Like Ara said, if we don't police these things, who will? I don't know about anyone else but the idea of the aftermarket and the trust in the hobby at large being eroded because a few people are selfish really pisses me off.

 

I do see your point that maybe there's one or two in the mass that you may be able to get through to, but at what point do you just cease banging your head against the proverbial brick wall with them all? For every one you find willing to actually enter into a mature discussion over the topic where perhaps you stand a chance of making the seemingly obvious points stick, there are probably 20 who just could not give less of a rats arse what the repercussions of their actions in buying a recast are.

I'm not even sure I can back the "at least we have comparison photo's" arguement for the place tbh because those casts are now good enough to be passed off as the real thing, so looking at them's not going to make any difference surely. The bootleggers have reached the point where they laser scan sculpts so shrinkage isn't an issue, they fake headplates, CoA's and boxes, some of them are actually coming out of the same factories as the real thing, I don't think there IS a way to prove authenticity anymore.

To me, all the Tumblr lot are doing is acting as free advertising for recasters on Taobao who probably think all their Christmases came at once from the extra sales they're getting as a result.

Like River, it pisses me off intensely that suddenly, the rug's been whipped out from under the secondary market and people are hesitant to trust anyone now, but I am all out of ideas on how the hell even a community that's otherwise as strong as this one could improve the situation without the companies themselves taking a stronger stand on the issue too.

 

I see a problem with this argument "recast are bad, but downloading music is less bad and should not be judged as harshly".
If you're against stealing, you need to be fair about it. If you harrass bootleg owners, then I should NEVER find a downloaded movie or song on your computer. If I do, I loose whatever respect for your opinion I ever had. Either all stealing are wrong and will always be, or there are levels of wrongness and stealing can be overlooked in certain situations. If it's the latter, then you should reconsider, if recast perhaps falls under this category and your opinion is not the one and only right one.
I personally don't believe in universal morals. Morals are human made and therefore certain situations calls for certain morals sometimes. Bootlegs might or might not be one of those cases.

Personally I don't care if people own recasts and no, I will not judge them. I don't judge my friends who download and I am NOT innocent in every moral matter either. It is not my place to judge anyone.

 

I'm probably going to get burned at the stake for this but I can understand the temptation that a recast can present and why someone might choose one over a legit low priced doll. It seems the general consensus outside of DoA is that most Chinese low priced dolls are junk and you'd be better off with no doll at all then to settle for one of them. With that type of statement showing up in the tumblrs I have to wonder if perhaps it is the perceived "shame" of owning low end legit dolls that drives people who really can't afford more expensive dolls to buy a recast?

I wouldn't ever buy a recast myself but I can understand the frustration of not having the money to buy a doll that is considered acceptable by the community as a whole. It still does*not excuse people stealing from companies however, and it is a really highschool mentality to have.*

 

I think if companies themselves did get involved it might have something of an impact because right now everyone pretty much just throws numbers like profit margins and size of companies around willy-nilly but we don't actually have credible sources of such information. Many of the people who bootleg seem to justify it to themselves with the "well they must make a CRAPLOAD from their dolls so what's the difference of one less sale?" and treat them like faceless companies the same way they do the people they steal music and movies from.
For a lot of us, the link to small groups of artists and wanting to support them is an important part of the hobby, it is for me at least. I want doll companies to do well and keep producing dolls even I don't love them all and maybe humanizing them a bit by having them involved in the dialogue would help matters... or at least shed some light on how the issue is directly effecting them.

 

I feel a little bit offended. I don´t think that it´s so common to buy Soom MD as recast in Spain. I am from Spain and i have 9 original dolls from Soom (Glot, Beyla, Appini, Yrie, Luxullia, Keny, Smokey, Sov and Hati) some of them are from Soom page and some other from the marketplace, the most recent only have a few days. Most of spanish user buy original dolls and yes, maybe some others (a minority) buy recasts but i don´t think this should mind that we are all thiefs or that we want to cheat other users selling a recast as it was an original.

I think marketplace is still the same, if someone want to cheat another person it can do it without a recast, a seller can take the money if the the buyer send by personal payment by paypal and not send the doll. Recast or no recast everyone is in risk at some point.

And i think is not a good idea to put a stigmata in one community, probelms are everywhere not only in some countries.

 

But, IratxeEowyn, is the problem with recasts. They destroy trust in the secondhand market. If there is a large active Spanish forum that is ok with Soom recasts, then it's going to be a logical step a lot of people will take to protect themselves that they shouldn't by Soom dolls from Spanish owners because there is a higher likelihood of the doll not being legitimate. I am not sure how true this actually is, but it's not the first time I've heard it. So now honest collectors in Spain will have a harder time selling their legit Soom dolls because people are going to wonder.

I'll be honest. I wouldn't buy a Volks doll from a seller in China. The risk just isn't worth it.

 

Since I get the feeling that people are misinterpreting what I said, I will clarify: I did not say, ever, once, that downloading media content is "better" than buying a recast (aside from implying that an individual theft is financially less taxing on a media company than it is a BJD artist - which is just fact. As already covered here by others, that does not imply that it's better either, unless you attach that meaning yourself). I said it's incomparable. Which is not to say that it's less illegal or less "bad", it's just far too different for comparison. I'm frankly tired of people actively buying recasts throwing around the excuse that oh well, since so many people illegally download music, they're totally justified in buying recast dolls (???). Yes, this justification came up a few times on the tumblr.

ETA: Whoops, no wait, I did say that it wasn't "such a bad thing" when I referred to it as free advertisement. That is debatable and pure speculation on my part, although there may be evidence that would substantiate that claim (I'll look it up when I come back from work). That wasn't meant to be a justification on why pirating media is okay, just as a comparison than not even such a possibility exists in sales of BJD recasts.

 

It does? Really? I've never run across this in my little corner of dolly-land. Maybe I've just been lucky.

When I buy a doll, I consider it to be an interactive work of art. I consider myself to be supporting the artist who produced the piece. Over the years I've developed friendly relationships with several doll artists (not just BJD makers) and it makes me angry and sick to think of any of these kind, creative people being ripped off. Even "large" BJD companies like Volks and Dollmore have a relatively small staff of artists and stylists. Bootleggers simply don't care about their buyers like legit doll makers do. Otherwise why use such toxic, shoddy materials to make their products? Paying a bootlegger to copy a doll for you is like paying someone to copy a painting for you, and with toxic paint no less. You may pay less for the copy, but it will never be as well executed as the original and it may even make you sick. It is beyond my scope to understand why anyone would choose to knowingly buy a recast. And people who do choose to do so deserve any furious backlash that comes their way.