Recasts and Bootlegging

I'd like to second this and also say that it isn't flattering at all. What's flattering is when someone, though can't afford your at, praises your work. Should you be flattered if someone steals your job and gets you fired? I don't think so. And whateverhappened to "its wrong to steal?" That person who stole your idea isn't illegally distributing your product in order to share it with the people who can't afford it. they're doing it to make a profit at your expense.

 

I agree with this. I never thought about it this way but I agree with you. I love Marina Bychkova's dolls but cannot afford any. I won't go around buying copies. As a collector, I absolutely want the original. That's the thrill.

Clones cannot cost more than $50 and sellers should specify.

I recently saw a Youtube video, a private collector with a recast, she was scammed on ebay. I really like her attitude and what she did. She introduced the recast as a recast and briefly described the circumstances of the scam and named the ebay seller. Then, she made it clear she isn't going to sell or throw the it out. She treats the recast as part of her doll family, I was very impressed by her attitude. It must have been a big shock being scammed on her first doll.

 

LondonAfterMidnight: "I am well aware of the price of resin, a good friend of mine is in the process of starting his own doll company."

I assume you will be advising him to keep his profit margin negligibly low to avoid being 'greedy' and once your friend has set up his company and has spent a lot of time and money on creating his first doll, if his sculpt proves successful and he sadly also becomes the target of recasters or bootleggers, I guess you will be reminding him that in your opinion he should be pleased anyone rates his work highly enough to steal it?

 

Great analogy. Just to add to it-- my son's ear doctor is highly skilled and I expect to pay a great deal for his services. (He saved my son's hearing! How much is that worth?) Yet he goes back to his country of origin every summer (with his son who has followed in his footsteps) to treat, for free the many poor people who live there. That's his choice. His choice. It doesn't mean that I should expect my son to be treated for free, does it?

 

Okay, so we've heard all the defenses/excuses/rationale behind BUYING a recast.... what about those people who SELL them? What about the ones who create them?

I can only think of one sort of scenario where I would be okay with creating a recast: if I had an expensive doll that I wanted to modify, I would be okay with creating a recast of that doll in order to practice the modifications. In this scenario, I created the recast myself, so I didn't line a thief's pocket, and once I was done practicing and the modification was complete, I would destroy the recast.
However, this would be more trouble than it's worth.

I, personally, don't think there is ANY reason that justifies stealing someone else's hard work to line your own pockets, but obviously some people would disagree with me because they do it. :/

 

Huh. I would be so angry about being scammed that I wouldn't be able to look at the doll without feelings of bittereness, if not outright revulsion. Every time I saw it, it would remind me of the creep who duped me. Who needs to hang on to an object with such negative associations? (I would chuck it.)

 

For anyone who wishes to heavily modify a doll head - it is worth a try asking the company for reject parts on the condition that you're not reselling. Ask them to etch 'junk' onto the back so that they can be satisfied you don't resell it. You don't know until you ask! I'm excluding Volks from this of course, I wouldn't try it with them!

 

The 'Wal-mart World' mentality of 'I should be able to get it at the cheapest price possible' and 'I don't value artists for their time' really skeeves me out. When I did costume commissions I was CONSTANTLY getting "What? That much for pants? I could buy a pair at Walmart for a third of that!" Well, you do that then. Go buy your custom made, custom fitted, just for you perfect cosplay pants at Walmart... oh wait, you can't. That's the point.

I don't find it unartistic to want to be paid for the hours I put into something at a fair minimum wage (which, I'm often NOT, because then it would be too pricey for anyone to actually buy).

 

Just so, so true. People who value artworks only by the cost of their materials ("A hundred pounds for a painting?! But it's only a few tubes of oils, some thinner, and a canvas!") make me want to shake my head in despair.

 

It's a terrible mentality isn't it. The entitlement combined with a not so healthy dose of 'poor me'. Poor you indeed, with your capacity to 'only' buy a 200USD doll.

Sometimes I see the envy in someones eyes, for the dolls I have. It's usually some teenager or 20-something, and I think back of when I was that age myself. How I bought a 70 USD dress when I was 20 and felt guilty about it even four years later, as I didn't have that kind of money to spend period. I'm not trying to complain or paint myself 'poor' here, nor am I trying to diminish real poverty or suffering in the richer parts of the world as I would never do that, I take human suffering very seriously. I guess I'm trying to say something like: there's always a broader picture. And it is telling me volumes when people can only pity themselves, but don't seem to have the capacity, the heart, vision, maturity or brains to extend that kind of pity to someone else as well. Someone who could never afford a doll period for example, or your parents or grandparents when they were your age. Or the artist who made the doll you claim to love but that you are now ripping of.

I feel there is some kind of 'steal from the rich' crusade being used as a justification for doll-theft, only they are not stealing from the rich at all but from small artistcompanies struggling to get by.
I think that this is what gets to me most in a way, that stealing from people that in no way have it better then you is justified with a shallow and semi-political excuse to cover a very luxury desire for an expensive doll. It is theft but if you tell yourself it is some kind of Robin Hood act of society-defying 'rebellion' you can apparantly feel better about yourself.
It's not even an impossible desire that they have in the first place, they can very well afford a beautiful legit doll for that money, but somehow that just isn't good enough.

 

Okay, I really had no intention of replying to this thread. It seems to me that a basic point has been made several, several times over 22 pages. But it proves the fact that most collectors feel very strongly about this and wholeheartedly embrace the endeavors of artists who have turned a passion into a job-something I think many people want out of life.

However... I see a lot of blatant hate that seems to be directed at people who own, or may own recast dolls, and this... unspoken "rule" of sorts that one should be ashamed if they own a recats. While I'm not saying some of these owner should not-those that knowingly buy recasts simply because they either don't want to pay that much money, or who think it's not hurting anyone really should be ashamed of such a thing.

But what about the newbie that was looking for a doll on ebay... or some other online store. I bought my first doll (head) on the second-hand market, and while it wasn't beacause I couldn't affored it but because I only wantd the head, and luts doesn't sell *just* the heads, I could have easily been one the unfortunate collectors that was duped. (I wasn't, of course, but still) Personally, just because that collector was tricked... it seems as if its expected that they feel ashamed for it not only that but the doll as well.

Sure, I can accept the reason why a recast cannot be shown on these forums. I've read the rules, they are sensible, and I agree with such reasons. But should one be expected to be ashamed of their doll? Should one be somehow... of questionable morals if they embrace the recast doll just as they do their legit dolls, even if they support the same views this community has?

 

I can't speak for anyone but myself... but I tend to believe that if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right. Don't waffle. Don't make excuses. Don't go in half-way. Just make the choice to either do something all the way, or don't do it at all.

Buying copies and bootlegs in this hobby is, in my opinion, not "doing it right". It's waffling.

Either have the patience, the dedication and the determination to save your money and get the real thing or just admit that it's not something you can do right now, and find a pass-time that's better suited to the resources you have available. It's as simple as that. Trying to take short-cuts and cheat your way into things is a poor way to go.

 

@Ethra_VII: The point you mentioned has actually come up a couple of times... You just have to look for it a little harder between all the outrage at the people who make and knowingly purchase recasts.

Common consensus is that someone who unknowingly ends up purchasing a recast wouldn't be blamed or ostracized for it. Because like it or not, even if none of us would choose to purchase a recast, it could happen to any of us.

There are some of us who would choose to keep the bootleg doll - as a reminder or so they aren't left completely empty-handed - and others who would just throw it out because they can't imagine not feeling bitter about the doll.

(You'll have to go back and look for yourself, but there were even posts about or from people who have been in this situation.)

 

I can't speak for others, but if someone was lied to about the origins of a doll they purchased or didn't know they had bought a recast, I hold no animosity to that person. My anger is directed at the person they bought it from that sold it to them as the genuine article. I'm not going to make the unfortunate buyer feel shame when they acted in good faith.

Now recast buyers who pretend to have been duped better not expect much sympathy...

 

I do not believe that someone who was scammed into buying a recast should be vilified or bullied/guilted into destroying their doll (I would feel bad enough having been duped out of my money to begin with), and giving it away risks putting it back into the market. I think this person handled a bad situation well... she can't get her money back and can't share her doll on DoA or other anti-recast forums, but she learned a lesson, tried to help others avoid what happened to her the best way that she could, and moved on.

The difference between this woman and recast purchasers is that she was a victim of fraud... she didn't go to a bootlegger and order a recast.

Unfortunately the more common bootleg dolls become, the bigger the risk of unknowingly purchasing a bootleg. This does put a damper on the second hand market... as much as I may feel sympathy for someone who was defrauded, I don't want to be one of those people myself. It does affect the way I see the market place. At this point, the bootlegs are so good I can't tell the difference from photos (and maybe not even in person.)

 

It may have the opposite effect. I managed to dissuade a friend from buying a recast through a combination of plea letters from Iplehouse and Unoa and pointing out the fact that the entire community is on High Alert right now. Many people have been seen stating that they'll be asking for inside-headcap photos or even the WEIGHT of a doll from now on before buying secondhand. People are researching the signs and hallmarks of recasts who never even realized recasts were A Thing. I think the instance of accidental recast purchases may go DOWN at this point, even as more of them inevitably hit the community.

(^^^psst clicky for some seriously scary good quality recast and how to identify it!)

 

Gotta say, those photo's do not reassure me even a tiny bit that accidental recast purchases are likely to decrease. There's no way in hell I could have recognised that as a knock off, even next to the original the differences are barely visible and if you didn't own the original or even something by the same company to compare it and the resin to in person, you'd be stuffed.

Yes, the obvious recasts where shrinkage is bad and the moulding isn't top notch will struggle to sell, but if they've already reached the level of reproduction shown in photo's like that, there's no way in hell some of them haven't already made it into unwitting buyers hands. SOME form of registration system is going to have to be employed by the companies for future releases or none of us stand a snowballs chance in hell of ever being more than a hopeful HALF sure what you're buying second hand is legit.

 

As an aspiring doll artist, I have to say, I'm glad to see the large number of people decrying bootlegs, compared to only a very few defending them. I do wonder if there's any way to prevent my future dolls from ending up being recast, when this is such a wide-spread problem. Should I not sell to anyone in China? That doesn't seem right, or fair... but it does seem like it might prevent the issue.

 

It is doubtful that refusing to sell to China will prevent your dolls from being recast. In fact, if your work is good enough, the only way you could prevent a recast is to just never sell at all. If you decide to sell your future dolls, it is sad that they could be recast if they become desireable enough.

Sad. But true.

 

It may be naivete, but given that I'm going to be running a small operation, I honestly think there's a chance nobody will notice or bother to bootleg my dolls. And believe me, I won't be offended by their failure to offer the compliment.

Still... odds are good that if someone is buying with intent to copy, they're going to be in China... given that it's Taobao that recasts are currently proliferating on, that seems likely, anyway. I guess the question is, if someone is ordering from China, are the odds good that they're a recaster? Or is there a significant number of Chinese hobbyists who would find, and order from, a U.S. shop?