Recasts and Bootlegging

@Logodae

Depends on how popular they become. But this isn't meant to discourage you. The community as a whole seems very much averse to the idea of bootlegging, and those that openly support it appear to be in quite a minority.

The upside is that if your dolls become popular(even if you are a small operation), there will be people all over the world that love and praise your work, and will work hard to obtain peice of that work and not some cheap knock-off.

 

Ethra_VII: Thanks... I do appreciate that. Really, I think the most sincere compliment an artist or craftsperson can receive is someone purchasing their work. And I love that this is such an international hobby... my website stats tracker puts little flags next to visitor's IP addresses, and even among my few early visitors, there's been a bunch of different flags. I love the idea of my dolls ending up all around the globe... so I'm not liking the idea of refusing to sell to China, even if I suspect it might be the more prudent course of action.

I don't know. I used to work for a software company, and our attitude was always that piracy was inevitable, and there was basically no point in worrying about it. Maybe that's the right approach -- trust that most people will act in good faith, and don't waste your energy worrying about the few who don't.

 

Well, I don't think that's a nice thing to assume of the Chinese BJD fandom. They keep a lot to themselves because of language reasons, but they're thriving, and you can see that in the forums of Chinese dollmakers.

In the same vein, most Chinese dollmakers keep Taobao shops for their national market, so buying dolls from Taobao shouldn't be thought to be equivalent with buying bootlegs. Some of us buy doll clothes and shoes from Taobao, too.

 

Logodae: I totally understand your concerns but I don't think anyone on this forum wants to start a blanket ban on all Chinese BJD fans! Most of the recasting and bootlegging may emanate from China but it's a vast country and a small proportion of people who think of this as normal in the Chinese community, doesn't equate to all Chinese doll lovers thinking recasts and bootlegs are a reasonable part of the hobby. I think it's the same as being on the secondary market right now, give everyone the benefit of the doubt, most people are honest in my experience, but just be aware that this stuff can happen.

As for making your dolls, I'm sure we are all eager to see them and wish you success. Nothing strikes fear into the heart of an artist like stories of art/copyright theft but you can't let it put you off or make you paranoid. As Sukeban pointed out, there are plenty of legitimate doll makers in China and I imagine many Chinese BJD lovers who would be adding their voices to this forum if it wasn't for the language barrier.

 

Okay sorry, but this made me snort. Your 'levels of disdain' are a little ridiculous. How are you planning to tell the difference between someone that was actually duped and someone that was pretending? The expectation that you'll be able to is pretty naive on your part. Are you going to require people who have been duped to fill out a survey? Background check? Water boarding?

 

Thanks for the link, London. That is pretty scary. I could only see a few differences... it looks like the butt and shoulders on the fake are less defined... but that could just be the lighting.

I'm glad your friend chose to not buy a recast.

I'm working on it. >.< I like the idea of having a doll AKC... but even just trying to figure out how to divide the information necessary to input a doll in the database is daunting. The tricky part is that doll parts can exist independently from a doll, but users should also be able to tag parts so that they display on-screen as a full doll. I haven't even gotten into user accounts, admin accounts, or how the information is going to be displayed on the front end of the page. And then there's the issue of being able to transfer dolls or parts between owners - so that a new owner wouldn't need manually re-register a doll.

I've also decided that users couldn't just submit a doll/part to the registry. Any doll would need to be approved by an admin for at least basic legitimacy - the user would need to provide receipts or other documentation to establish a doll's owner history - especially in the case of a second-hand doll who is being entered into the registry for the first time (I'm waffling about whether the actual receipts would be visible to anyone but the current owner of the doll).

I'm going to do some research and see if I can find some software that already has account capabilities and possibly an internal email capability, so that I can focus just on the doll-related programming.

*snicker*

You both are making me snicker. I agree with cyranstar on principle (I can guess that most people would)... but practice-wise, I agree with you, mosiacwolf, it's a darn hard thing to prove. While I'm not going to assume all people who have knowingly purchased a recast are going to lie about it to the legit community, it wouldn't surprise me if some of them had the fuzzy morals that would let them justify doing so.

I would lose that much more trust in someone if I learned they had purchased a recast, either knowingly or unknowingly, and then learned that they had lied about it.

 

A person that has been duped normally has proof of some sort...emails, name of sellers, ebay sellers, forum transactions....something.

And how would I tell? I'm not going on any witchhunts looking for recast buyers. Those that have been duped seem to be pretty forward about it and share details to warn others. I'm simply saying I have nothing against those that were tricked, they didn't set out to buy a recast. Nothing ridiculous about that. Snort all you like.

 

I'm definitely not trying to imply that Chinese fans or companies are automatically suspect... I have incoming dolls from Dollzone, and the company that's casting my dolls is in China, too. And I'm not actually planning on refusing to sell my dolls back to their own country of origin -- like I said, it just doesn't seem right.

I do wonder if there's some kind of registration system I could implement... something that would let secondhand buyers check to see if the doll they're considering buying is legit. Still, the fact that the bigger companies haven't done this makes me think that it's probably not that feasible. And I don't like the idea of someone forgetting to transfer a doll in the system, leaving someone else stuck with a legitimate doll that they can't prove their ownership of.

Maybe some kind of certificate of authenticity that would actually be a challenge to counterfeit... hm.

 

Agreed. I'm just curious if you really have the stones to go up to someone who openly says they've been wronged and say 'That's so awful, let's see the proof.' Because that's great if it makes you feel better, but buying a recast is not the only thing that warrants a moral judgment.

 

Logodae: No, you never came across as that suspecting all Chinese companies/doll lovers! I was just thinking that in this whole thread, people could get the wrong end of the stick and go away thinking the whole of China is involved in some huge doll bootleg/recast conspiracy More to do with me being paranoid about any comments I've made, all the stuff I design in my day-job is produced in China and I have many many good experiences of working with people over there, just you get to realise that there is this whole bootlegging community out there that don't quite see right and wrong the same way maybe you or I do.

 

Where did I say I would do that? I'm not the recast police.

You're reading a lot into the little bit I said and pointing accusatory fingers will not get a rise from me. But hey, if it makes you feel better, go ahead.

 

I don't know if "odds are good" regarding China being the location of the buyers who want to copy dolls, but there are cases know where people in Europe and the USA bought a doll to have it recast in China and then sell the recasts. Avoiding buyers in China is not going to keep your product safe.

 

Wow, couldn't find a time to read all the topic, but will tell my opinipon, even if it was told 100 times before.
I am strictly against bootlegs and recasts. Mainly because when I buy a doll, I buy a sculpt, that was made by an artist. It is his/her time, money, health and sweat, and if I like the doll he/she made, I respect the sculptor. When a Soom Dia was my dream doll, I thought many tims about a person, who created this godess. It is like parent of my lover - it can be watewer person he is, bad or good, but I will be grateful to him for the only fact that he gave life to person, whom I love.

So with my money, I thank the sculptor, caster and others for my dream, that comes true.

 

Wow, Quenthel. That's ... really a beautiful way to put it. ^_^ I agree 100%

 

It makes me not want to buy any doll from the marketplace anymore. I'm way too scared to buy a recast.
I mean look at it this way, someone can just make bunch of recast with a lowerl cost, and sell them as if though they were real for the actual price in the marketplace. Good for them, I guess some smarty pants will make a bank, not for me though.
Scary shit right there.

 

To add to that, there are plenty of legit dolls on the secondhand market (who've ussually been exchanged through several pairs of hands) that literally come in thier birthday suit... and that's it. It would certainly be easy for a dishonest person to take advantage of a trusting (or desperately seeking) buyer and sell a recast as an original simply by saying they lost the papers, never got them, was part of a split, etc. A good liar - much like a good bootlegger - can pass off a falsehood easily.

Not of course saying that there are many dishonest people in the market. Or that certificates aren't useful to verify authentic products. Just putting forth a scenario.

 

I live in China currently.
The shops who sell bootlegs might be chinese, but there's a lot of buyers who are foreigners. They contact shops, buy dolls, ask owner(s) to get the bootleg of this or that doll... I even know forum for the bootleg's fans, all of their dolls- 100% bootlegs.
And there are many chinese fans who would never buy bootlegs - money is not the issue in china anymore (for some percent of population at least), if they want something - doll, ring, car - they get it.
I wouldn't buy a bootleg myself, as I want to pay money for the original work, not to a theft - I dont pay criminals. It's shallow. If I have not enough money for the doll atm, I will work, get smarter, find a way to make more money, and get a doll.
I like art and craft. This is what the hobby is for me, art and craft. It takes a lot of people involved - the artist, who create and make the doll, the artists who sew clothes, make shoes, wigs, eyes, jewelry; us, who make characters, styles, who tells stories, take pictures - this is what it is, the imaginary world of art becoming real art. So it doesn't matter what good deal I'd get from a bootleger, I don't want it, I don't want fake, I don't want cheap - I do respect people who work as artists and earn their money, this, (legal), way. I don't want to throw money at something stolen, don't want to be theft myself.

 

....I like this post so much I have to quote it. You say everything I want to, but so much better.

 

Eludys: I have been saying to myself that we mustn't let the bootleggers win and totally abandon the secondary market, but I think I am starting to get a bit paranoid about someone I bought a head from on Ebay UK recently. I have seen this seller on Ebay (but they don't seem to be on DOA from what I can make out, they don't use the MP anyway) for quite a few years and always they sell heads from this one company whose dolls I love. I became worried enough last night to do a search through their feedback and found that over the last 6 months they have sold upwards of 15 heads by this one company, usually on a cheaper Chinese company body, but then they auctioned 3 of these bodies at ridiculously low prices. One particular sculpt they sold 5 different versions, all are pretty much blank but with rudimentary face-ups by the seller. This Ebay seller never sent me any papers with my head but I don't actually remember this company sending me a COA for just the head I bought direct from them either (they may have done and I have mislaid it in my house move?), just the full doll.

What I am trying to ask is how do we buyers (who do NOT want to support bootleggers or recasters) buy on the secondary market and spot someone who has a ready supply of dodgy dolls/heads that they want to pass off as the real thing (hence sticking to Ebay where they may assume people will know less about BJDs and, let's face it, the policing of fakes is pretty lax) from a slightly eccentric collector who buys the same sculpt multiple times and then tires of them. I actually know someone totally legit who has a revolving door policy with BJDs, she loves it, craves it, really has to have it, it's here now, ohhh, bored with it, buy something else. A few months later I hear she regrets a certain sale and buys the same sculpt again! She isn't doing anything wrong (except slowly draining her bank balance I guess as she seems to lose money each time) so how do you tell someone like that from someone who is knowingly selling fakes - unless you know them personally?

What I am wondering