Recasts and Bootlegging

TBH I agree with everything this says... and I honestly had not wanted to post in this thread because even by the time I did respond, nothing else needed to be said, and the debate isn't even necessary anymore.

At the end of the day, whatever your stance is on the whole recast issue, to call a recast owner an "animal", to demean them, and bully them is not going to make them stop buying recasts... and it certainly won't encourage them to join the hobby in an honest way. And to be honest, seeing that sort of behavior makes me hesitate in my continued involvement in this community.

No, I will not condone recasting, no I won't encourage people to buy them, nor will I encourage those that do. But I will *not* demean someone. Ever.

We know the rules of the forums, why not just leave it at that. Sure, educate new owners about the potential dangers of recasts, continue to support the artists that make these dolls... but none of that will change the fact that recasts will continue to exists. That's just how it is.

 

I'll never buy a recast/bootleg. I know very well that I'd feel ashamed and guilty.
But I wouldn't judge someone for owning one like so many people do....
The sad thing is, you may think it's ok to harass someone over the internet because they're buying recasts/bootlegs, but you don't really know the person. I've seen people here talk about the owners in such a bad way...
But really, some people aren't just buying them because it's their super limited expensive grail doll that is so ultra rare that that's the only way they could get it. Some people really just want a BJD. I know a person that isn't on the forums that owns a recast. She's poor and a lot of the money she makes goes to helping support her family. She saved up for a really long time and was almost able to afford her dream doll(which wasn't some $5000 LE or anything, it was actually a quite common sculpt), but her money went to paying medical bills. She saved for months again, and bought a recast so she could finally have her dream doll without risking her family's financial state and health.
Sure, I do not support recasting, but until I know the owner, I'm not going to judge them harshly.
It might not be ethical to recast, but I think that we shouldn't be so cruel...

 

I'm sure cruelty never crossed the list of most bootleggers, but considering that they are denying revenue to artists who may be depending on their creations as their sole income, I kind of see the 'cruelty' statements as ironic.

I'm not going to go out and lynch a recast owner, but I also am not going to be on friendly terms with them. That doesn't mean I'm going to throw stones at them or question their humanity, but on that token? Calling a person who has specifically solicited and bought an illegitimate product a criminal for that action is not cruelty. It's just accurate.

There may be very human criminals out there, who are 'good people' at the end of the day (I am friends with an individual who has spent eight years in prison), but calling a spade a spade is only being honest about the action that took place. And frankly, if we leave less grey area for those who are considering a purchase of an illegal item -- because people are human and they often make excuses to justify bad actions, of course - than they sometimes realize that maybe they don't have the best of intentions after all. They might aspire to actually purchase the real deal due to community standpoint on crime, especially if they are active members of that community and do not wish to be excluded from it. And that, once again, isn't cruelty. It's law.

 

You assume that because many people are willing to make a stand on the side of the companies and don't want recast buyers in the community that we are all running around harrassing people. That's not the case -- there are probably some people engaging in that behavior, but that's not the way most of us operate. There's a difference between calling out bad behavior and actually following people around the internet sending threats.

I'm sorry that things worked out badly for your friend in her attempts to get her dream doll. However, what she got in the end wasn't that doll -- it was a knock off. There are so many legit companies with a whole variety of sculpting styles creating dolls for so much less money now, that this argument doesn't really hold up. It may mean letting some sculpts go (but that's the case for many people), but there is no need to pay more than recast prices to get a lovely doll. I don't think your friend is an evil person, but she did make a choice that I can't condone. She had other legal options that she could have taken. She shouldn't risk her finances or her family's well being for a doll, but neither should she have committed an illegal act in order to obtain a copy of the real thing. People who do so are risking the well being of the original artists and the hobby as a whole which is most definitely not right.

The community's stance on recasts has been around for a long time -- it's nothing new, most people are aware of it. If they then proceed to buy a recast they are doing so knowing what the community reaction is going to be. As has been repeated over and over, actions have consequences. You said that you would never buy one because you would feel guilty, so clearly you know that it's wrong.

 

It is not bullying to say that someone who knowingly buys a recast is unethical/immoral/stupid. Really. Honest. It may be inaccurate, but it isn't bullying. Forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for people who participate in an illegal activity being judged for said participation. It's not cruel or mean to judge them for their choice, either. Labeling criminal activity as criminal activity is not in any way cruel, or bullying, or harassment; it's the truth. If you don't like that, that isn't our problem. Advocating for the harassment of or actually harassing an individual whom you know has knowingly purchased a recast definitely is bullying and no-one should be doing it. (If you're doing it, knock it off. It's not necessary.) Calling people out for buying recasts in general, though? That's simply a way to get across the message that supporting recasters is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.

For the argument in some cases that the recast buyers really "just want a BJD", they need to go to the cheaper legitimate companies. It can't be any harder to save up and find a doll from, say, Resinsoul or 5SD or Impldoll that you like than it is to save up the same amount of money and buy a recast of a more expensive doll. It is sad when someone can't afford their dream doll, and I have sympathy for that, but there are plenty of us who can't who do not resort to purchasing fakes. I want a Volks Cecile scarface, but I will probably never be able to afford one, for various reasons. My solution to that is not to buy a recast of one, though, it's to content myself with other, less expensive dolls that I like just as much. I really don't see how it's such an awful thing to NOT have every single thing you want just because you desire it. It isn't about elitism, or thinking that some people are more or less deserving of a doll, it's about what's right. I don't care if you're Warren freaking Buffet; if you're unwilling to pay out the money for a real Doll X, you don't get one. Not having money for a real one, or really, really wanting it, or knowing that you'll never get hold of a real one because it's so limited is no excuse for buying a fake and supporting the people who create the fakes.

We really can't just "live and let live" when it comes to a group of people, both sellers and buyers, who are ripping off the artists/companies who produce the legitimate dolls. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, recasts DO cause harm to the companies and the hobby as a whole, and if we ignore it or let it go because it's "not that bad", it will get worse, and it WILL eventually become a big problem. Sure, it may not be that bad now, but what happens in a couple years if it goes unchecked? (As for the "it's just plastic" thing, well, that argument would be fine if we weren't talking about people's businesses, here. Sales of that "just plastic" help pay people's rents and buy their food. That's pretty serious, IMO. Also, we can be concerned about dishonesty in the hobby as well as more important things-they're not mutually exclusive.) The figurative asspats and "It's okay, we still like you"s directed at people who knowingly (knowingly being the key here) buy recasts don't do anyone any good. It would be nice if folks could get off the "Poor, poor recast buyers, you gaiz are soo MEAN to them!" bandwagon. So we're not blowing sunshine up their posteriors: big deal. They should get used to it, because people buying illegal copies are going to face an overwhelming proportion of collectors who won't tolerate such nonsense. We will not always be phrasing things in puppies-and-sunshine terms, so don't expect us to. The vast majority of people are adults who ought to be able to handle a little snark and bluntness.

 

This is true to a certain extent.

But speaking for myself personally (and not you or anybody else on this thread), I am old enough to know myself and to know the way things can effect my emotional life. Objects do have emotional resonance (I don't mean in an animistic sense). The dress you were wearing when your boyfriend split up with you, the gift you got from a Secret Santa whom you hated, etc., retain emotional meaning.

When I first came into the hobby, I commissioned an outfit from somebody who was dishonest with me and jerked me around for a long time. I've got the outfit stuffed in a box, out of sight, and will probably chuck it during my next purge, because it just pisses me off so much.

If I got duped in a doll purchase, that doll would serve as a visual reminder of my shame, anger, etc. If I had pursued the issue and got my money back from the bootlegger, that still wouldn't redeem the doll. (After all, I did eventually get the commissioned outfit) I think I'd have a little sledge hammer party out back and sweep up the refuse.

If I hadn't got my money back, I'd still have my little sledge hammer party. To me, it's not about money down the drain. It's about how much it's worth to me NOT to have to look at an object with so much negative baggage attached to it.

(And no, I'm not wealthy by 1st World standards.)

 

This is the part some people coming in and calling us all big meanies seem to be missing a lot... I'm sure there might be a few people running around out there chasing up people for buying recasts to give them crap but please, give us a little credit, we're not all that petty.

That said, if someone buys recasts and doesn't give a crap about the impact their supporting them has on small companies then I'm not quite sure why we're expected to coddle them, pat their asses and tell them "You did something bad but it's okay because you're a swell person."
Yes, those buying and selling recasts are people, so harassing them is far from cool but that doesn't mean their own behavior is by any means less illegal and unethical. Being a nice person doesn't excuse directly hurting the companies they claim to love when there are perfectly legal options available to them for the same price.

 

I haven't seen any inappropriate name-calling in this thread, nor do I think there has been any bullying. There is nothing to dissuade someone from commiting this particular crime other than the disapprobation of the BJD community, therefore it behooves us to speak out against this theft of intellectual property. To call someone an "animal" is to infer that they are behaving in a bestial or brutish fashion. This is because it is widely understood that humans have a conscience with which to evaluate their own actions, unlike beasts. So if you chose to ignore your conscience and act purely to satisfy your own desires, you are behaving like an animal. Thus purchasing by purchasing a recast, flouting the law and the respect of your peers, you get called an animal. This is not bullying, this is the social consequence of your selfish act. There is a reason criminals are stereotyped as "hardened." They have hardened themselves to the consequences of their acts against their society's laws. As stated earlier, if you chose to break the law, you'd better butch up.

 

And while we're at it-- would everybody go back to Page One and review the actual "animal" comment before you misquote it again? It's been incorrectly quoted for the past 10+ pages. The statement was that "people are animals". I.e., humans. I.e., you and me and everybody. I.e., the beastliness of humanity is why I'm not surprised when they do yucky icky creepy things like gloat about passing off their illegal recasts in photos on DOA.

No, I called the Tumblr braggarts "creeps". And that is quotable.

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ETA: ... Except now I kinda like St. James's analysis of the truth even better, so you can go ahead & keep misquoting that if you want. XD

 

Polyhymnia: You have a point of course. I was just relating the emotions I went through in the 20 hours or so where I suddenly realised the head i was working on may actually be a fake. I now know from the Horse's Mouth, so to speak that my panic was over nothing, as the maker has identified it as his work. Just how older sculpts were cast.

I was a bit surprised by my own reaction though, I would have assumed I would reach for the sledgehammer too! Instead, I felt that if it did turn out to be a fake I would want that reminder sat by my desk for the next time I decide to go merrily onto Ebay without doing enough research or asking enough questions. This head will always remind me of that panic even though it happily turns out to be genuine.

I'm pretty long in the tooth and have been through a few too many dark nights of the soul over the years, but I never fail to be surprised by how new experiences can wrong foot me. I guess that's what keeps life interesting in many ways

On a different note: Why do the "I would never knowingly buy a recast but I want to hug the warm fuzzy bunnies who do" Apologists KEEP dredging up a few rather extreme comments that were made way back in a 25 page thread, when the fact that NONE of us wants to harass those who buy Bootlegs/Recasts has been repeated over and over again? If it's meant to be some form of sleight of hand to keep our eyes off the real issue, it isn't working very well.

 

@Feli-chen:

I really don't get it why some people think "XY is a nice person, that's why he/she DESERVES it and is ALLOWED TO to buy a bootleg".
No, that's just not how it works.
Every time a recast owner comes up with "I know your reasons for not supporting buying recasts, but I have a good reason to buy one!" I want to scream.
There are no good reasons and this bad excuse just makes me sick.

It's sad your friend couldn't afford her dream-doll, but we are not talking about things like food here.
She can live without that doll pretty well.
Maybe it would make her sad etc., but in the end there is NO good and not morally wrong reason to buy a bootleg.
I have a lot of friends who can't afford their dream-dolls (hey, I can't afford a SD17 Williams either), but there is still no reason to pity them for that as long as they have a roof over their head and something to eat.
This whole sobbing and whining from recast owners is just to laugh for.
I understand nobody wants to be harrassed, and some things were quite harsh, I admit that, but that a lot of them actually want to be pitied is just...yeah.
And vonbonbon is right, every time recast owners complain about this thread it's about the same four, five VERY extreme opinions/posts while most of this thread is quite polite, especially on the last and newest sites.

It's funny, after looking into this debate once in a while I searched for VOLKS in the for sale area (larger dolls only); and what I saw made me cringe.
Dolls without the plates, without certificates, some didn't even have the whole headplate, no box or whatever and usually in a questionable state too...while I already thought before that some deals just seem fishy these are now screaming "I'm a bad bootleg" into my face.
I also talked with a friend about it and she was, after many years in the hobby, totally shocked that recasts even exist. Now she's bummed because she LOVES buying second-hand dolls, especially when they are modded, and from all the dolls she ever got she only has 4 certificates at all.

 

There is no excuse for buying a recast. If someone really just wants a BJD, any BJD, there are countless companies to choose from, in numerous price ranges. There is a BJD for every budget, even if it involves saving up - most people I know in the hobby have to save towards their dolls.

It's not cruel to make buying recasts undesirable by freezing pro-recast people out of the legitimate hobby. They chose to alienate themselves by doing something completely illegal and immoral, that the majority of the community finds highly repugnant. What is cruel is to rip off a doll that an artist has worked on for months or years. Where does your right to a doll become more important than the artist's right to be the sole maker, distributor and beneficiary of the proceeds of their work?

 

Not to get smart-mouthed (but, I am), but we are animals. Mammalian to be exact. Now I shall take off my gradumacation hat. har har.

When I post in debate threads I purposefully bring out my nastier side, just to be a voice of someone who isn't afraid to pull out the claws. I will not harass or bully anyone for having a recast, but I will shun them out of "my" hobby. I don't want their business, and I don't want to look at what they have to say or post. Plainly, I will hit the ignore list and share it with my friends. All of our thoughts are not kittens and rainbows, and that's one reason why I really respect our new administration here at DOA.

I'd like to also point that another person in this hobby is being snubbed by re-casters, the owners of legitimate dolls. Excuse me for liking a doll enough to pay the inflated second-hand market price of a doll, rather than skipping out and becoming a thief by purchasing a recast. I've paid the $1800 for a nude doll that was originally $900 with fullset items, and I don't regret it. I am infuriated when I see someone skip off with a recast of the exact same doll, complaining about the second-hand market price being something they can't justify spending. Well, excuse me for having patience, discipline, and an ethical/moral compass. Oh, and the willingness to meet the market for the authentic doll I really want.

But, I am human, that's why my feathers get really ruffled when I see someone stealing from a company that houses my favorite crack-made-luxury-toys-resin-sculpting artists or someone trying to make excuses for them. I just don't buy the excuses, and since they aren't my friends even just with dolls then why should I forgive them? Because, I'm supposed to be nice? No. I'll defend their basic human rights, but no one has the human right to get whatever luxury item they want just because they want it but would rather steal for it. Knowing the owner of a recast wouldn't make a difference to me, and I don't think it shouldn't. This isn't like judging someone who is on welfare; are they abusing the system or are they not? This is owning a luxury item. Period. Simple. Why is this idea so hard for some people? Yes, we should be out spoken about condemnation and make no excuses about it. Owning a BJD is not like needing food, or healthcare, or a higher education. Are we going to start having a financial and circumstance paperwork for recast owners before we know it is okay to accept them or say "Dude, that isn't right"? No, owning a dorrie is a privilege. This behavior of recasting is not a human right, not even a privilege, it's just a bad choice that needs to be spoken out against.

All the registry system in the world isn't going to protect against recasts as well as community-wide condemnation of such action. Registries and chips in resin sound like a good idea, but they are a long way away even if there is any applicable use for such idea. So, I'll be active in voicing my disdain. That's one way I can fight against it from the get out, and I don't need to hem and haw about it.

 

The main thing that I don't understand why some people don't get is that supporting recasting is theft. It's completely dishonest and it directly hurts the artists and the companies who worked hard to produce the originals.

If you're struggling to afford a doll, some companies make beautiful, versatile sculpts that probably cost less than many of these illegal recasts! A Resinsoul mini doll WITH a faceup you can build on is roughly $150-170. That's amazing and you get all the joy of owning a BJD, legally, in a way that supports the artists and helps them to grow.

These aren't multimillion-dollar corporations recasters are stealing from; they can't sustain themselves against an active recasting market.

 

cruel? you go to fashion forum and say that your Chanel 2.55 is fake. Or that you are not gonna judge people buying fake luxury items. THEN you will know what "cruel" means

This is a very funny answer though "I am a theft because I need this thing so much". There's people who need to kill people to get aroused, because this is the only way they can do it - while torturing and killing. And don't tell me about the "big difference" between "just to buy bootlegs", or "to kill" - there's no one, if you look at it from the point of "shouldn't be done". Neither of such things, not stealing, not killing, not many others which people covering by simple "I did it cause I needed it" - they shouldn't be done. Call it ethics, moral code, commanders - doesn't matter, we all (almost) do know the right and wrong things, but we do lie our to ourselves, and more worse, we try to push others to be "tolerant" toward this. There's a line between tolerance and stupidity, and let others do wrong things because they "need it" pretty much on stupid side. You are tolerant they stealing from others today - can you swear they not gonna steal from you tomorrow? Or from me? If we would take responsibility for our "tolerance" toward people actions, I guess the amount of it would drop rapidly.

 

I do not see why we have to be nice and forgiving to people who own recasts when we don't want to be. I do not think we are being savages. Why shouldn't we treat them as outcast? We are not going to welcome them with open arms.

It really should be black or white, and not grey. They should learn from it and take it as it is because clearly they are doing something wrong. They can always do something about it by tossing that recast, and go buy an authentic. Then we'll be nice and forgiving. Otherwise, cry me a river. Just because you 'didn't' know, doesn't make your action justified (especially when you continue on the same behavior).

Personally I think the community here is quite forgiving as it is. Sometimes you give people an inch, they take a mile. It shouldn't be like that at all.

 

I don't think anyone is saying you "have" to be nice to someone who knowingly supports and buys recasts. I think everyone can agree that they should be made very aware that what they have done is wrong. But going so far as to make them outcasts? And then all they have to do is chuck it and then they are welcomed? What kind of mentality is that? I for one would want nothing to do with a group of people willing to treat me wrongly and then welcome me conveniently once the evidence of wrongdoing was gone. Just sayin'.

I'm sorry. So... the newb that was scammed is just as guilty as the so called criminal that happily bought the same knock-off? Really? Yeah, that really makes us sound like a "forgiving community".

 

BWAHAHAHAHA. Love this.

At our worst we still hold nothing in comparison to the haute couture community. Even Lolita can be all teacups and crumpets by comparison. Saying a Chanel 2.55 you own is fake and flaunting it is paramount to raping baby puppies.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one looking at the wagging fingers telling us to be nice to recasters like they smell of poo. Sometimes, I struggle to be nice when protected by the anonymity of a forum. Bwah.

I am quick to forgive someone who realizes they were duped into buying a recast, tells about it to the community, then chucks the doll. I struggle when they start making up excuses to keep up, for whatever the reason. From there it is all downhill.

 

It was a mistake, so once they correct the mistake, we welcome them. What's wrong with it?

Clearly, I only said ACTION. Him/Her action of buying a bootleg was still wrong. Someone who was scammed by accident vs. someone who knowingly bought a bootleg, both performed the wrong act by purchasing a bootleg.

 

Is it wrong that I find that adorable in the most pathetic of ways?

Perhaps they did. But the word SCAMMED plays a role in how these two situations VASTLY differ. Treating them the same way is therefore not justified at all. Isn't it enough if the victim of the scam feels enough foolishness for not recognizing the signs. Now they have to be tagged a criminal because they were not experienced enough to notice the subtle differences between the real thing in the actual store and the knock-off sold as an authentic on the second hand market (lets use ebay in this case, because I'd like to think no one would do that on the MP....since there *are* people who would notice the differences and would call the seller out on it in a heartbeat).