Recasts and Bootlegging

While I disagreed with much of what you wrote in your previous post, I do agree with this. The person that was scammed is actually a victim, and while educating oneself can help avoid that situation it's not a 100% guarantee that it won't happen to you, it can still happen to anyone. Most people would have no issue with a person that was taken advantage of in that way since they were clearly not intending to buy a recast, and whether they decide to keep or destroy the doll at that point is up to them and really doesn't matter as what's done is done. The wrong action is to intentionally buy a recast which is taking part in a theft. Accidentally buying one in good faith is simply a matter of getting screwed over by a thief -- it doesn't make the victim a thief themselves.

 

I should say I didn't think they weren't being reported, I figured someone had to. I also figured that it must be hard to control companies in other countries (take them to court etc.). I am naive, I'm not an expert on this. ^^; Goodness I didn't think I'd actually get a response from that post...

Also I don't agree with people who buy recasts, so please don't think I do. I believe in the end it is a waste of money for people to purchase bootlegged dolls. If you have a recast you know it's not the real thing, its a copy, and its a stolen design. I just can see why some people would be drawn to the allure of this cheaper doll. And no that's not right, it's never right to steal!

 

They both performed the same wrongful act under different circumstances. It is what they choose to do afterwards that determines how I will treat them.

The fact that this discussion even went on to so many pages with people trying to understand all side of view (even those of bootleggers and people who purchase them and so on), shows how forgiving we are here and how willing we are to give people 2nd chances. I also think SOME people deserve a 2nd chance (but depends on what they did after they found out they accidentally bought a recast. Those who knowingly bought into it and think it's ok, should still never be forgiven) Because really, in Asian communities they are way more strict about this and leaves no room for discussion. You are pretty much banished if you own a bootleg no matter what the circumstances are. They don't care what you say about it. A discussion like this wouldn't even make it past 3 pages there.............because to them there's not much to discuss.

 

I'm sorry but if I was scammed out of a large sum of money by some jerk who sold me a recast I probably wouldn't just throw the doll away unless that would somehow magically get me my money back. I mean what's the point? Then you would just be out the money and the doll. I'd probably keep the doll to document it's appearance and make darn sure everyone in the doll community knew to never do business with the one who scammed me ever again.

 

I personally don't think it would even be right to expect even a scam victim to chuck the recast; that just; they are out money, and that recast is still their property, and it should be their decision and their decision alone what to do with it. If they decide to throw it away, that's fine... but I wouldn't think differently of someone who was scammed, but decided to use the doll in other ways. Practice mods on it. Practice face-ups on it. Go on youtube, livejournal, or tumblr and use it to educate others in the hobby. It's still a chunk of resin, and it *can* have its uses...

 

I think the only thing that will make the second-hand market tank is this very discussion.
Heck, I didn't even think of it until now!

This mass-propaganda just freaks people out. If the second-hand market does bomb, don't just blame in on the 'recast people', blame it on the people who made such a ginormous deal of this that everyone is so terrified and scared to participate in the community.

The fact that there is a thread on this is kind of advertising bootlegs in a way, making it more likely to happen. Not everyone is on tumblr and not everyone is seeing the posts. Some people may not have even been aware of bootlegs. I sure wasn't until recently.

 

You bring up a very good point... even I did not think of that.

Though I'd like to think this discussion could educate people. It's good to be aware that there can be recasts on the second hand market-and I do not mean the MP exclusively-so as to minimize the risk of people being scammed... Not being aware of the danger, means you can be much more likely to be scammed, unless you only buy new from a company.

However, I can see where this debate could scare newcomers into hesitating to participate in this community, and I can honestly see where people would take it one step further and go from cautious, to scared and wanting nothing to do with shopping on the MP. I certainly hope that doesn't happen, and I'm sure no one else in this community desires that.

But, hey, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I'm sure all everyone wants here is to make it clear that recasting is unacceptable in the effort to support the artists that make this hobby possible... but it could very well come back to bite us in the ass in some form...

And I think with this, I'm done. I've said more than enough. Happy debating, all~

 

To this I say yes and no.

What I believe - as well as what I'm sure many others on this forum will tell you - is that the topic is not being brought up to specifically provoke fear. It's to promote education and discussion. It was brought up to get the word out to people who didn't know about bootleggers, and to help them and others find resources that will help them spot a bootlegged doll and not get scammed.

Yes, there's a bit of a back and forth, but that's expected in a debate. I see how you'd think that bringing it up so much - we have almost 20 pages of discussion - could begin to create some degree of paranoia amongst some, but that wasn't why the debate was created. Yes, it can make people cast a doubtful eye on the secondhand market, but it will make people a little bit more careful, too.

I also don't see how we're promoting bootlegs by discussing them in this fashion. I would say that 99% of the discussion in this debate is how much we dislike the act engaging in making and knowingly purchasing bootleg dolls, which will hurt legit companies in the process. Just by making someone aware of the bootlegging going on in this hobby isn't going to make someone instantly want to go out and participate. Most likely, I would think that it makes them do the opposite.

It also doesn't matter if you're on Tumblr or not. If you know the site address to the Tumblr you want, you can find it through a simple Google search. The address has been mentioned already, so anyone can get there.

 

I disagree. I rather see this "scare" as an incentive for potential second-hand buyers to be more careful in their purchases, while sellers are more inclined to better document their wares, if they want their sales to succeed. This "careful buyer, careful seller" is actually conducive to maintaining the quality of the market, discouraging the recast sellers (who will be hard-pressed to produce proper documentation) and other sellers who can't be bothered with guaranteeing their wares.

Regarding this "being terrified to participate in the community", if you own a genuine doll, I don't see the reason for being terrified. Heck, I even see a lot of non-doll owners welcomed warmly. I love this hobby for the fact that you don't necessarily have to own one to enjoy one (hello BJD enthusiast, hello BJD photographer, hello BJD clothier).

As for the ostracism of recast buyers from the community as wrong and bullying, I disagree. Is the community expected to oooh and ahhh over the "super bargain prices that these dolls are acquired"? Am I expected to admire someone's doll that is metaphorically one more nail driven to a company's coffin? Recast owners can very well form a forum of their own for as much as I care, but I cannot be expected to smile at them here. I do however, frown upon the witch-hunt and the stalking and the spamming.

I commend DoA's firms stance on the matter of bootlegging/recasting. In the end it's just good business sense.

Finally, only the uneducated are terrified. Be informed.

 

Really?? I am astounded at how backwards that statement is... allow me to correct the syntax...

We can go on and on about how someone justifies the need for bootleg luxury plastic--but at the end of the day we are arguing over artists being hurt, and companies closing down, and livelihoods and reputations and everything.

People who buy stolen luxury items---Victims of art theft (and damage to livelihood)

Recasters and their buyers have already demeaned themselves with their own choices and actions. Maybe shame at the realization of what they are actually doing will stop them from buying recasts.

This is true, but accepting bad behavior is condoning it. The only recourse the community has is to not accept it.

So ignorance is bliss? Live that way if you like, but a large part of this board has always been education and information. The second hand market has always had risks, now there are more risks. Pretending it isn't there won't make it go away.

 

People who want to buy bootlegs will still keep buying them. They will go search for places to buy them from. They just have a different mentality than those who don't want to support bootleggers. We are in no way promoting it and we are not trying to cause a scare. We just want to let people know that they are around. ^^

 

Of course, people have to be aware of the existence of bootlegs. I would be very upset if I were to accidentally buy one from someone. It's just that these days it seems that it's the only thing that dolly people want to talk about.

My apologies, I worded that part wrong. I meant being scared of participating in the marketplace. Sorry!

We should tell that to everyone on this thread. Proof that people are so scared of these recasts is the fact that this thread has so many posts!

 

The marketplace tanked a long time ago when the hobby was flooded with lower-tier dolls from companies hoping to gain market share by undercutting the competition. Once price expectations changed there was no going back and this also may have led to the expansion of demand for recasts. Some people just didn't see why prices from some companies remained the same when other companies were charging hundreds of dollars less for a doll in the same size range.
I don't fear the marketplace or fear getting sold a re-cast. I usually shop very cautiously and research the seller when I can't buy new.

 

I know it's not much but I'd like to say I've found this whole discussion very illuminating. I'm only new to this hobby and to me a lot of what's been said is actually rather worthwhile and helpful information for avoiding being scammed. It gives a point of reference and some good ideas on how to judge whether or not a doll is a fake. Which in discussions like this is what you'd be hoping for.

They'll always be second hand buyers for things like this and if this discussion has scared you off buying second hand then you were probably hesitant about it in the first place. My sister has a couple of secondhand dolls that she's bought of the marketplace here and I can't think of when she's once complained or had an issue with a single one. Buying second hand is one of those things that requires research into the product you're buying and this is where feedback threads are the most valuable resource on places like the MP here and Ebay.

 

I know this wasn't intended this way but it sounds really horrible. So everything was much better before all these "low-tier" companies popped up? Wow... I'm afraid this has a bit of the stigma (albeit unintentional) that I've heard mentioned on the BJD confessions blog when people state that they'd rather buy a recast than a cheap doll, because then they'll be respected. The community needs to eliminate this stigma against the low priced companies as a way to prevent people from turning to recasts. Then people will consider them more of an option rather than feeling like they need a SOOM or Volks to be respected. I have 4 dolls from "low-tier" companies and I love them. They have spectacular sculpting, creativity and quality.

 

That's a good point. I've never thought of it that way but that makes a lot of sense, especially the part about how the expectations of what prices 'should be' might have come about. It shows again that mentality of where a price on someone elses art is expected to be serving me, while little effort is put into some background-research on the production of these dolls and where these prices actually come from.

I have never been someone to easily spend money and at first the prices made me think this hobby was not possible for me. But I did some research on the productionprocess and I also have people close to me who run small businesses, so I realised rather quickly that, if anything, prices are more then reasonable, and sooner too low then too high. For me this has always been a key point in my willingness to buy these dolls even if they cost a lot of money and I am not rich. It's an honest price and to me that matters. It's also why I'm so upset with recasts and the willingness of people to buy them or the condoning of people who are buying them. These people seem to just presume there is enough room to steal from the little companies without them going under, and I think they are very wrong in that.

 

All this meant was that there used to be a narrow price range. The demographic of ABJD collectors has changed drastically: the average collector age is lower and the average price point per doll is lower. This isn't a judgement, it's just a fact. Believe it or not, Dream of Doll used to be mocked as the cheap company with poorly sculpted dolls. That wouldn't happen now because there is a huge variety in what is being made. The fact that price ranges are now all over the map has made some collectors feel that the higher priced companies are simply being greedy by charging more. What these particular collectors are probably not thinking of is the cost of advertising, R&D, rising cost of goods and transport and payroll inflation. You wouldn't expect Volks to lower their prices in today's economy, it would be sending the message that they feel threatened or somehow had been overvaluing their product. Anyway, this mistaken perception means that some people think nothing of buying a copy of an expensive doll for the price of a lower cost doll because it's the sculpt they want at the price they feel is reasonable.

 

If you feel you need a SOOM or Volks to be respected then I think the community holding hands with you isn't going to do much good, but maybe a psychiatrist will. Also, not my responsabiliy if you (general you) are so immature that you cannot think past your own ego: I need an EXPENSIVE doll to be respected so I'm going to steal it!
Really? Wow.

In this thinking the doll seems to have become something that is 'only' valued for being a certain brand. But it does explain why cheaper dolls aren't good enough for the recast-buyer. Because what matters is not the doll or the enjoyment of it, but some brand-related ego-stuff like thinking you can make someone envious or feeling all grand and special for owning a (stolen) doll that looks like a certain brand. Talk about elitist.

 

I haven't read this whole thread, it seems incredibly repetitive, but from what I have read there is a lot of talk about supporting companies and artists, and purchasing from the 2nd hand market doesn't support artists or companies. I just thought that I would bring that up.

I personally do not care what other people do, and my personal attitude is that of laissez faire.

But it seems like there is a lot of double talk. If you want to go with the black and white argument, any theft is theft, art theft isn't special, if you download music, burn movies, stole candy as a child well then.. Let Him Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone. It truly ruins your point when you say that there are two different standards of theft.

 

When a new doll is released there aren't any owner pictures or reviews out yet. You have to take a gamble and buy the doll to see if it's to your liking or wait till some people have bought the doll. Now a lot of people think "Let's buy the doll. I can always try to sell it if I don't like it."
In that sense the second hand market is important to artists. A good second hand market makes customers more likely to buy their product, because customers can get "rid" of it too without losing too much money. If buying a doll means that you're stuck with it, a lot more people will take less risks and only buy when they are very sure the doll is what they want to spend so much money on.