Recasts and Bootlegging

I am getting tired of this. This offhanded "oh I haven't read this thread for it is booooring and not really worth my time, but since I cannot respect your opinion enough to actually read it now I am going to give you MY opinion because I'm sure it is superduperoriginal plus it's the fastest and easiest way past all these nastily intelligent, very to-the-point arguments against recasting."
Do you know why this thread gets so long? Partly because of people like you who cannot give others the courtesy of reading their comments, yet come in telling us for the zillionth time that really, it is not that bad! these are not bad people, people! So everybody has to come in again to try and explain again, that yes, really, it is that bad.

RTFT.

 

Mayday: Pitching to the discussion forum after just reading a few comments and the original post is fine, but probably not the best way to go in the debate forum. It's what used to be know as 'going off half-cocked' and get ready to feel a lot of stones cast in your direction by the sin-less and sinner alike. It's like setting yourself up as a judge and then saying that you could only be bothered to listen to half the evidence but now want everyone to respect your judgement.

Call me old fashioned, but when did this hobby become all about HAVING a particular sculpt anyway? Not so long ago BJDs attracted creative people who wanted to get their hands on some resin, pretty much any sculpt so that they could practice their customising skills, their face-ups, their sock based dressmaking skills. You still see the odd plea on the MP for old damaged heads but the whole recast problem seems to be flagging up the way the hobby has changed, now it's all about having a finished article and some morally dubious individuals would rather have a fake Volks than buy a Boboobie and make into something incredible and unique by learning skills they can then use on higher prices dolls.

I know we had a couple of people saying buying a recast/bootleg would be fine IN THEIR OPINION if it was just to customise but that really doesn't seem to be why people are buying them at all. It's the fake Rolex/Gucci bag syndrome. I find it just as sad that the hobby seems to be less about creativity these days, almost as sad as the fact people keep making excuses for those who knowingly buy stolen goods.

 

I think this absolutely says it all. Mind if I submit this to the Say No To BJD Recasts tumblr?

 

Not at all -- people aren't typically looked down on if they buy lower cost dolls. The variance in prices has been going on awhile now, and now that a lot of less expensive companies have proven themselves trustworthy, they are overall very well accepted.

I have seen the flipside to the attitude you fear, though, which is the idea that buying a higher priced doll is a rip off, elitist, etc etc. I've also seen a fair amount of questioning of prices. That doesn't mean that less expensive dolls are bad, just that people don't stop and think. Lower cost legit dolls are a great alternative to recasts and really poke giant holes in the idea that 'I had to buy a recast because abjds are soooo expensive waaaa!' However, the people buying recasts don't bother looking past the idea that they must have a particular sculpt right now damn it! Saying they would rather have a recast than a cheap doll due to community disfavor is downright silly, as many people here own less expensive dolls -- many of those companies are really quite popular! There was suspicion when they first started hitting the market back in what? 2007 or so? But this is now 2012. Stuff changes, and a lot of the accusations of elitism and lack of respect aren't based on people's behavior now.

All that said, it is true that the hobby has changed a lot, and lower priced dolls at least contributed to a lot of that change. Change typically brings both good and bad with it -- that's just the way of things. It doesn't mean that lower cost dolls are a problem (I have a couple MNM heads on inexpensive bodies, so clearly I don't hate the less expensive companies), but you can't look at all the changes that have happened and not cite the rise of less expensive companies as a big contributing factor to the demographic shifts that have taken place.

 

I have send you a PM

 

Since no one else mentioned this I just wanted to point out that this discussion came about because of various confessions on the anonymous tumblrs that encourage people to come forwards with their BJD related secrets. They received more than a few confessions along the lines of "I buy recasts, post them on DoA passing them off as the real thing and no one knows. I love it." or "I have recasts in my collection and everyone fawns over them at meets not knowing they're fake." The problem has been around for a long time and sticking our fingers in our ears and pretending otherwise wont make it go away or help anyone become more aware of something they might have already encountered without knowing it...

 

If you don't want to take the time to listen to me, I don't see why I should listen to you. I know I sound cranky, but this kind of attitude is disrespectful.
Ever since this thread started I participated, because the topic is important to me. I know that there are some misconceptions about recasting and doll production and I wanted to give counter arguments whenever someone said something I didn't agree with, so people would hear the other side of the story as well.
To be frank, your post wouldn't irritate me so much if you actually brought something new to the table. This would actually push the discussion forward. But instead, you have been rehashing old arguments that have been dealt with a number of times. You are not the first to do this, you probably won't be the last, but do understand that joining a debate without knowing what's been said will put the discussion on hold.

Will you be just as lenient when you find out some burglar has emptied your house? People are being sentenced to prison on a daily basis, but I guess we should stop doing that, because none of us are without fault. The law is very much black and white; there are no two different standards of theft.

 

I don't understand this trying to make excuses for thieves. I'm supposed to accept and tolerate the behavior of bad people?

 

I don't know if this is meant to be rhetorical or not... but I would actually say it was about the time Soom first started doing the MD series. Suddenly there were these beautiful dolls with unique concepts that you could only get for a little while. You were SOL if you missed the order period and a lot of them went for as much as they cost new, if not more, on the second hand market. The absolute hype and "OMG, when is the next one coming out!!!1!" and "I must buy it, even though I've got 4 other lay-a-ways going on." makes them seem, IMO, like a Luxury (capital "L") item in a sea of luxury items. Gucci bag syndrome, as someone else put it.

Just my opinion, mind you. I'm not trying to throw stones - I have a few Soom tinies, myself. I don't think any of what I just said is bad in and of itself, but I think it could give a new, or even a more experienced, doll owner the wrong impression of the hobby.

 

You know, I was also pretty shocked by the various posts on the confession tumblrs from people saying they'd rather look at a recast then a cheap doll. What sort of backwards attitude is that?

To be honest this thread has actually made me feel better about not being able to afford anything but cheap chinese dolls. People may look at my dolls and think ' oh great one more crap-tier doll to clog up the gallery' but at the very least my cheap dolls are real and I did support an artist by buying them.

To me the idea that you have to buy a popular doll in order to 'fit in' just shows how insecure a lot of people in this hobby really are.

 

Fads and 'must haves' in the hobby is nothing new. Before SOOM monthlies it was CP Woosoo and Breakaway or Dollshe Bermanns that everyone was clamoring to get hold of, all of which where far more limited than monthly dolls. Soom just cornered the market and took it to the next level but the idea of the 'must have thing' wasn't their invention by far.

 

I've been in this hobby for many years, and I observed the same thing.

Before the MDs the LEs were mainly company fullsets with the occasional LE or re-release head, all human, sometimes elf ears. These LEs were not released on a monthly basis but maybe 2-3 times per year (Dollpa, etc).

 

@River & Doll-Mage: I agree with both of you. My impressions might be a bit skewed, because Sooms were the only limiteds (in all my years in the hobby) that I've actually had any amount of interest in. On the other hand... River is right that Soom pushed it to the next level. The fad, the gimme mentality, whatever you want to call it, seems worse, or at least more wide-spread and definitely cumulative, than a 2 or 3 times yearly limited fullset doll.

 

When I said that I hadn't read the whole thread, it's true, I haven't, I have read the first page and the last 10 pages of this thread, I've been watching it for a couple of days. Of course it would have been nice to jump on in the beginning, but I don't always read stuff in the debate section, let alone comment, it takes me a long time to form complete thoughts.

That is not at all what that quote is about, if I someone burglarizing my home or anyone's home I would of course call the police... as if I saw someone selling a known bootleg on this forum, I would contact a moderator. However, if someone purchased a doll knowing or unknowingly that was a bootleg, they aren't going to go to jail for it, and it's not my job to point fingers and tell them that they are a bad person.

I have never purchased a full doll from the 2nd hand market place, I have gotten bits and pieces of things, I like to purchase straight from the company, that way I never get a questionable doll, and that way I support the company/artists that I love. There are definitely dolls I missed out on that I love, but of course there will always be dolls I love and I rather wait for another one down the road that strikes my fancy.

Ah, but that is not how the 2nd hand market usually works...especially when it comes to limited dolls. I haven't seen many dolls that were limited that were sold for original cost, most people who sell a limited sell one at a higher cost, because they can, it's supply and demand. I'm not saying that it's wrong it is the way it is, but this supply and demand is the fuel for bootlegging and buying bootlegs. There really isn't any way to change that.

I generally agree with, LordBlumiere had to say, about four pages back, I thought that it was well said.

 

My point was how a healthy second hand market fuels the sale of new dolls from artists and companies. If people cannot easily put their doll for sale second hand, a lot of people will buy less new dolls. Therefore an artist benefits indirectly from a strong second hand market, which is my answer to your statement that the second hand market does not support the original artist.

 

Only that is exactly the way the secondhand market works. A thriving secondhand market for collectibles means that the collectibles are valuable over a period of time to a group of people and can attract more people to purchase dolls and participate in the hobby. Hell, the value of used cars is often used as a pro or con in the purchasing of a new car, as it is desirable to buy one that will hold its value better over time. A thriving secondhand market where dolls increase in value shows that the company has value over time, so it really does help them sell more first hand dolls and makes their LE's more desirable to obtain early on for retail price. And sadly, the secondhand market is NOT thriving now the way it used to. Most LE's you are lucky if you break even anymore on them if you resell them. It does make buying dolls a much larger risk.

And you are completely ignoring the fact that the bootleggers are making recasts are standard, easily available dolls just as often as they are LE's. Anyone who thinks the bootleggers are doing this for humanitarian reasons is a fool. They are doing it to undercut the company and make a quick buck off of unscrupulous people.

It is our job to police our hobby and keep it a safe, fun place. We call people who take the money and run scammers. We don't want those people who STEAL from us to be in our hobby and to have a chance to STEAL from other people, and yet, when we don't want people who STEAL from the artists, we're being horrible bullies and should instead give them reassuring back rubs and be nice to them?

 

Kymera: No, not really hypothetical, but it does make sense that the Soom monthlies did play a big part in this sea change. Of course there are still plenty of customisers, hybridisers and people like me who like to do their own face ups and make clothes, but the focus has definitely shifted quite a bit to Full-Sets being the most desired thing. I wonder if that trend is with new people joining the hobby mainly or with all collectors in general. I don't own a single full-set, nothing against them, but I want a doll I can put my mark on, so I guess I have had my head down while this has all taken place and I really didn't know when/why this happened.

 

So whose job is it to make sure there are some kind of consequences? It is actually illegal, it does do harm (which has been explained in depth many many times already), it's clearly not the right thing to do, so why should everybody just accept the behavior? Right now, the only thing the community can do is educate each other and discourage people from buying recasts. You aren't going to discourage many people if you aren't willing to criticize the behavior.

There's nothing wrong with doing that, but it doesn't work for everyone, and a healthy secondary market is actually the sign of a healthy hobby. Knowing that you can resell a doll if necessary encourages people to jump in and buy new as well. Having LEs and older discontinued dolls circulating, can help increase interest in a company. Plus those dolls were new original dolls at one point, so money was given to the artists.

I don't think you understand the secondary market when it comes to collectibles. Not everything's value stays the same or drops because it is used. Abjds are not like my old toaster -- the toaster doesn't work so hot and isn't worth much now, but dolls hold their own over the years if well cared for. And supply and demand isn't a bad thing as again, it can encourage people to go ahead and make the leap to buy a doll new knowing that it's value won't plummet. These are also luxury items not food or medicine, so if someone has to pay a bit more, wait a little longer, or pick something else there is no harm being done to them. Right now it's really a buyer's market anyway, so prices have been quite reasonable if you're willing to be patient and look around for a bit.

People buy bootlegs because they feel they have a right to whatever they want at whatever price they are comfortable paying. In truth none of us has an inherent right to a luxury item, and people need to expect to pay what a doll is worth (realize of course that values can go up and down over time). People need to grow up and realize that they can't have everything they want just the way they want it.

 

QFE

Thank you, this is so true and exactly what so many has been trying to say.

 

?? - You CAN put your mark on a LE fullset doll-- many owners do. They wipe the faceup/ ditch the outfit items/ swap the bodies. In fact, that is the very reason that an intact LE fullset can command a higher price on the secondhand market-- since most of them have been customized, the fullset is now rarer than it was at release-time. The item itself can still command a good price even if sold faceless & naked. But if it includes its box, clothes, o.g. makeup, accessories, paperwork, etc. its value increases more sharply.

Or.... it should, anyway, in a secondhand market that isn't diluted by recasts.

Also yes, the big limited fullset thing was going on long before Soom made it a monthly thing. Soom just happened to go monthly in that big initiative at about the time [2008?] when there was a big spike in the number/variety of new doll companies & a population explosion around here.

In response to Mayday's charge that fullsets never sell for just their retail price without a markup, that is bollocks, as anybody would know if they ever spent more than 5 minutes in our very own Marketplace. The market's so squishy that many people are happy to get retail price & break even these days. (I just now saw an incredibly rare Volks fullset for a hundred bucks less than its retail price...) Again, recasters aren't some altruistic saviours rescuing you from an overpriced secondhand market. They're just out to make money by ripping off other people's art.