Recasts and Bootlegging

There are many wrong things you can do that won't put you in jail immediately. If I decided to call you names and demean you, the cops will probably not be knocking at my door, but I'm still hurting you. When someone is doing something wrong it's the job of the community to speak up and keep the hobby healthy and enjoyable. Bootlegging and buying bootlegs is illegal and so we shouldn't accept it.

Also, this ^. Feeling entitled to something doesn't give you permission to rip other people off.

 

I agree with educating people, in open and honest ways. As for criticizing people, that is just not something that I personally will ever do, that's the way I work, I'm not asking anyone to jump on my bandwagon, well because that would be against my own views. I believe in the practice or doctrine of noninterference in the affairs of others, especially with reference to individual conduct or freedom of action.

I never said the 2nd hand market is bad, nor did I say supply and demand is bad, I do know how the market works, for collectables and for cars/toasters. What you are quoting me about is taken a bit out of context and is about selling a doll that you don't like for less than the cost of the doll, and I said that is not how it usually works, sometimes it does, but mostly it does not especially for LEs. Which is mostly the topic of discussion here because bootleggers aren't bootlegging most basic dolls. Bootleggers are just part of that ecosystem of the 2nd hand market, if you have something people want and can't get, then you have something that people will copy, supply and demand. I am also a bit shocked that so many people didn't realize that the bjd hobby would have bootleggers, because every hobby has some form bootlegging or copying going on within it. I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it is what it is.

 

The only problem with 'noninterference' in a situation like this one is that it can be taken for permissiveness.

 

"Freedom of action" sounds good, however we are not free take place in illegal activity. Recasting dolls is illegal. It is theft. I am not free to buy the latest best seller, make copies of it, and sell the copies for my own profit. Nor are you free to buy such a copy.

 

But what happens when someone's actions step on someone elses' freedoms? I have trouble with this because the way to stop bad things from happening is to interfere. That doesn't mean using unnecessary force (in this case that would be running around the net stalking and harassing people), but it does mean making it clear that you (general you) don't approve. I can think of so many instances where if people didn't interfere things would go horribly horribly wrong. You of course can do (or not do) what you like, but it's not a good argument for taking a mushy stance on bootlegging or many other things for that matter.

Some new people may not be aware of the bootlegging problem, but many people who have been around for awhile know they exist. However, they may not know to what extent. I remember reading a thread some months back about some disturbingly realistic Volks recasts. It was a worrying thread, but I didn't realize to the point things had truly gotten, because I don't use tumblr, and there's a limit to how many doll websites I have time to visit. Lately it's only been DoA, and I went for a couple months without being nearly as active due to real life stuff. That's why threads like this are important, even if they can seem like people rehashing the same stuff or bickering. Also, just because recasts have been here the whole way along and are about impossible to completely get rid of doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to do something about it. Doing nothing only lets the problem get bigger. Oh, and BTW, they are bootlegging basic dolls too. People do not want to have to take the time to save the money to get the real thing.

 

I had sworn off this topic until this. Thank you. Thank you so much.
It is within our rights as human beings to decide what does and does not concern us to the point of action and no amount of bashing someone over the head with "but you can't be accepting of illegal activities!" is going to change minds. I can be permissive of illegal activities much as I can assemble peaceably and protest the laws that dictate them (and I do for various laws). If someone does not want to interfere it's their business and blasting into them for their personal choice on inaction is ridiculous. What if one's religion dictated inaction and love for all fellow beings? Would we be so quick to jump on them then? *remembers Ghandi's, Lennon's, and MLK's deaths*

 

You are and that is your choice, my choice is mine (to only buy directly from companies), you can't exert your will on me, well I guess you can try that's what marketing is all about. We all have free will but there are consequences for all actions. For instance, if you practice something than the consequence might be that you become good at it.

 

I agree. Though, personally, I don't see the point in buying a limited if I'm just going to change everything that makes it limited. The sculpt itself would have to be something really special. I prefer a completely blank canvas.

They stood up for themselves and others without resorting to violence or negativity. They still made their points.

The way you (Duskodesh) and MayDay talk, it sounds more like you'll let the bootleggers go on doing what they were doing (even though it is wrong, on so many levels) without making any point or stand at all. And while complete passivity is your personal choice and all, I'm sure you've noticed that irritates a lot of people who don't think this is a situation where being totally passive is called for.

We might never be able to stop the bootleggers completely, not alone, but I hope our communal cry of "Stop!" makes a dent with someone.

I would much rather get back to discussing how we can circumvent this problem. How can some of us learn to spot fakes who have not had much experience handling different dolls (especially when some of them are so accurate)?

 

No, we're not being asked to join in the noninference, but many of us are going to speak out against actions that help bootleggers in way. That includes speaking out against those who are passive against bootleggers.

 

Did I misread something or did someone just compare bootleggers and their defenders to Gandhi and MLK? Please tell me that I misread, which is possible because of my growing ignore list, thanks to this thread.

 

This is what makes the hobby really special for me too, I love seeing completely blank dolls and the transformation that they go thru in the hands of their owners.

I agree with educating and being informed, but in order for that to happen, someone has to come forward with pictures of their side by side fake and real dolls. I don't see much of that happening, but if you really hunt you can find some people out there doing just that. Back when I was involved in the Pullip community, there was a company making blank pullip heads that looked exactly like the real thing, and a dishonest person could conceivably use those fakes and sell them as real. A girl on the forum bought a couple and compared them with originals, it was interesting and informative, and important for the community to see the differences, especially since there is a lot of customizing going on over in the pullip groups. Collectors might not have know the difference if it wasn't for her.
I would love to see some side by sides, know the difference in the quality of resins, the color the detail, I know that I could very well be duped by a fake if I bought on any 2nd hand market because no one will be honest with the fact that they own one for fear of the judgement that will be passed on them.

 

@Katyok: No... just the people who choose to be submissive about it; they're allowed to do nothing because Ghandi stood up for what he believed in without resorting to violence. Totally equal. (*sarcasm* )

 

Ah, good, because my head was about to explode.

 

Considering you admitted you didn't read the entirety of this thread... I think this is what you're looking for.

I would be all for an informative database of known recasts and some of the other information you mentioned, but the problem with getting that together is the people who are coming forward are not the apologetic or the duped who see that buying recasts is wrong, it's the people that are perpetuating a problem. They're not going to just hand over the information that will get them cold-shouldered out of the community that they pretend to respect.

 

I find it ridiculous and rather ill-informed for someone to be calling the relationship between the second hand market and bootleggers an "ecosystem." If you're going to borrow scientific terms, get it right. An ecosystem has parts that have evolved together and which interact-- all are dependent on each other. Remove one piece and the system falls apart. Clearly this is not true of the doll market-- our "system" would get along just fine without bootleggers and buyers of recasts. In fact, they could cause the collapse of our second hand market should they get out of hand. If anything, recast buyers and bootleggers are an invasive species that is threatening to destroy our market. Left unchecked, they cause ecosystems to collapse.

 

More accurately, parasites who feed off the healthy body of the hobby and produce nothing but toxins that slowly poison it.

 

Um, no. Ghandi and MLK preached nonviolent means to bring about change. What you and Mayday and a few others have been saying is that we should let the recast buyers go about their business unchecked. There's a difference between peaceful protest and doing nothing. And tolerance only goes so far -- Ghandi and MLK sought to change what they saw as wrong rather than tolerate things as they were. Do you see where I'm going? Clearly you and Mayday and everyone else can and will do what they want at the end of the day. Nobody can force anybody else to do otherwise on an internet forum. However, that doesn't mean that we have to agree and shouldn't voice our own opinions. People are worried about the situation involving recasts and doing nothing -- or worse encouraging buyers by being passive, just isn't going to create change. I think anybody who really stops and thinks about the situation can realize that. Also, just because someone has strongly held views doesn't mean that they won't be challenged--especially in a debate thread where the point is to discuss, challenge, you know, debate. You have the absolute right to your own views and I would protect that right, but I also have the right to publicly disagree with you in a place that is designed for this sort of interaction. That's not being an intolerant jerk, that's being a person who is speaking out on an issue she cares about. If everybody sat around and never said or did anything for fear of interfering with someone else, the world would be a massively crapstastic place right now.

 

I didn't use that analogy because it's a bit more complicated than what you describe-- parasites can be part of a fully functioning ecosystem and evolve with it. In contrast, invasive species causes ecosystems to collapse-- like purple loosestrife in the Northeast US, cane toads in Australia, Japanese knotweed in Europe, etc. If left unchecked -- if "tolerated"-- they will actively destroy an ecosystem. The parallel to our hobby is clear.

But, yeah, functionally they are parasites-- they give nothing back to the system.

This is the difference between tolerance and indifference. People in this thread asking for tolerance to recasts are confusing the two.

 

Is it possible for DoA and BJD makers to put their heads together and come up with a list of best practices for dealing with bootlegs/counterfeits? e.g. What to do if you suspect your doll is a bootleg; what to do in cases of known bootleggers (e.g. report known sellers to DoA, eBay (or whomever), the BJD company who is being ripped off, local law enforcement, etc.

It would be interesting, if probably impractical, for BJD manufacturers to offer bounties to those who have unwittingly bought a counterfeit ... tell us who sold the doll, turn it in, and we will, in return, recycle the resin (is this possible?) and credit to you the materials cost of a legitimate doll.

 

I think that would be helpful and definitely a doable project.

Unfortunately, resin can't be recycled -- one of the reasons tan dolls cost so much. An imperfection means the doll just has to be pitched.