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Recasts and Bootlegging

Mar 6, 2012

    1. I think there have been some really good contributions to this thread. I'm glad to see so many people really care about the future of this hobby.

      On other websites there's a lot of misdirection going on. Volks does make big profits, this is because Super Dolfie is only a small part of the company, and not what they rely on. Other than that, doll companies are ver small, relying on the small flow of customer sales. Some people are sayign that these companies deserve to be ripped off because they are making so much money out of us, and it simply isn't true.
       
    2. I'm too cheap to get recasts. For me, the value of a recast is $0. If I'm gonna steal something, I'm not paying for it. To have to fork out any amount of money to get something that tries to pass itself off as original but isn't is having to pay way too much. And there's false advertising involved. And I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate false advertising (just a personal pet peeve). Even if you don't sell your recast, chances are, you'd be passing it off as original, or people will mistake it for original. Own up, at least, and I'll just see you as an idiot rather than a malicious cheat.

      I believe strongly in supporting my favourite artists, to the point where I have quite a collection of stuff that've never been opened, because I already have the rips/downloads, and I forked out just to support the artists. I also have a massive collection of downloads that don't have matching physical goods, because I don't turn down free stuff (and most of it just sits around wasting harddrive space because I'm too lazy to delete them after 24 hours or whatever).

      I can't claim the moral high ground, and I don't care to. For me, it's simple economics: the recasts are not worth the resin they're cast in, anyone who buys one is an idiot for overpaying, or a cheat who's thinking of profiting by later passing it off as original.
       
    3. This is precisely what I'd like to see too. If some of the companies involved actually took a solid, vocal and public stand on this instead of the odd comment on a sales board once in a blue moon, maybe we'd stand a better chance of getting on top of the situation once and for all.

      I am now wondering, actually, if the companies are even aware of just how widespread it is. Possibly not, since there are only one or two English speaking reps who frequent places like this with anything like regularity and that would certainly explain their oddly taciturn public front on the subject.
       
    4. The bitch of it is, some of these companies ARE aware they're being bootlegged.... I remember awhile ago one Iplehouse announcement warning people against buying copies. Might be they don't have the resources to go after them, without some kind of legal-defense-fund? Law is expensive.

      I don't know why more of them don't get involved more visibly either, but I'd also like to see that.

      ... And did you see in one of those Tumblrs was a link to a bootleg Volks Luna for $1850? That is no bargain! You'd probably pay that much for a secondhand real Luna these days, and it's certainly a lot more than her retail price. Whoever buys that doll is getting SO ripped off. Imagine paying as much as you would for the real thing, for something you know to be fake. (And then bragging about it.) :?

      Yeah-- victim-blaming is the first line of justification in one's heart, when one resolves to undertake criminal activity without hating oneself. If one removes the victimhood, then there's no crime, and thus you can sleep at night. So they keep repeating the mantra that creates a victimless crime. "But that company must make zillions of dollars", "But you could tell she wanted it", etc.

      Sure, but that 1 person is everything. We all know there's that 20 more who are still out there, but the fact still remains you got that 1 person. Journey of a thousand miles, single step, etc. Just because one feels despair over the enormous odds of failure does not mean that the attempt isn't still worthwhile. Talking about it is a good thing.
       
    5. From what I can gather from the recast tumblr, a lot of bootlegged dolls actually come out of the very factories that cast the original dolls and more than likely use the same resin, with the bootlegs being sold out the backdoor so to speak. I wonder if the companies are aware of that or not? I'd sure as hell like to know if the company I employed to cast dolls for me where ripping me off in the process...
       
    6. Even if they lack the funds to go after the bootleggers with the law, I can't help thinking that issuing some public statements along the lines of Iplehouse's wouldn't go amiss here from the other companies. If nothing else, it would at least give us a clue that they are AWARE of the issue and are trying all they can from their end too.

      There is also the "backdoor" thing too of course, you have to wonder why nothing's done about those ones especially since it wouldn't take vast sums of money, just the removal of business from the factory in question to fix that gaping great hole in security.
       
    7. I think they are aware, but if you really want to do something against recasts, you'll have to take legal action and most artists don't have the funds to do so.

      EDIT: Shoot, JennyNemesis beat me to it ;p.

      I can imagine. I'm not a professional (yet), but I am in the process of getting my first doll casted. It is expensive, I've invested so much time and money into this project already and to be honest, making and selling dolls is more like a hobby than an actual job. Not that I'm complaining: it's the best hobby in the world! Still, this topic worries me. Because the customer basis is so small, I don't think very much is needed to ruin a good doll company like Shinydoll, Iplehouse or Souldoll.
       
    8. Actually the dolls aren't that expensive, JennyNemess. I'm pretty sure the page was translated using google translate, and that the owner of the blog had discussed at one point that you still needed to translate the currency.

      Simply ignoring something as bad and sweeping it under the rug doesn't work. The little information I had before on recasts because of the attitude toward them was amazingly small. now I'm more educated, and hopefully wiser.

      I also don't think it's great they're promoting sellers on the tumblr, but I do think that it's a good thing they have ways to warn each other about potentially hazardous dolls. What they're doing isn't right, but I don't think anyone deserves health issues because they stole a doll.

      ~Elijah
       
    9. Ahh, was I reading the wrong currency? - It was just printed on the watermark of the photo I saw, with no explanation, and $1850 was what it said (and :o was what I said).
       
    10. River: "From what I can gather from the recast tumblr, a lot of bootlegged dolls actually come out of the very factories that cast the original dolls and more than likely use the same resin, with the bootlegs being sold out the backdoor so to speak. I wonder if the companies are aware of that or not?"

      OK, any Chinese DOA members, please don't attack me because I am simply stating something I have found to be true from my day job: the doll companies will be very aware that when they send their dolls to be cast in China there is a very high risk that they will be bootlegged by the very same factory. It is very widespread even though they pretend that they don't do it. I design for big toy and gift companies and they now build into their profit margins the fact that for every consignment of legit items they get back from the factories, there will be flood of identical cheaper items sent out to Far Eastern territories where the companies I work for don't have licenses to sell. If they do that with licensed goods and risk the wrath of companies like Disney and Sanrio then they will definitely do it with small BJD companies they know can't afford to sue them.

      They have the doll moulds, they have the head plates, they have the packaging and all the documentation (or it will be being produced at a neighbouring factory) and the attitude seems to be that it's a way of earning a bit extra from each order, making the factory more cost effective. It is so widespread that big companies just accept the risk, they can maybe afford to, but how can anyone expect a small one or two person outfit to recoup the loss and get over the damage it does to their reputation... and no doubt slender profit margins. It's sick.

      Pretty much the only way that BJD artists can guarantee they won't fall foul of that scale of bootlegging is to cast themselves or at least avoid casting houses in China where this just seems to be the way they do business.

      Disclaimer, before you start hurling things at me: Sorry for tarring everyone with the same brush, I'm sure there are many Chinese factory owners who do not bootleg, but you can't tell me it isn't a huge problem because I have experienced it myself.
       
    11. Okay, if it was on the photo possibly I'm wrong, but I know that on that blog they mentioned you still needed to translate currencies. (It when you throw on google translate it turns their money sign into a $, but it doesn't actually calculate the amount, I guess?)

      And vonbonbon, yes, a lot of recasts seem to be done that way-- or in that care, bootlegs, i should say, since they're not exactly 'recast'. I would have to guess that in the case of a company that's fairly popular, like say Iplehouse, perhaps the risk is justifiable to them because while they're not a huge company, they still probably have more orders to fill than they could do by hand in a reasonable amount of time.
       
    12. It shouldn't matter if a company's profit margin is high or low, illegally copying their work and undercutting their prices is wrong - ethically and legally wrong. If consumers do want to make a stand about high prices for art pieces, the legitimate way to protest is to not buy the product at all. We're talking about luxury artist-made dolls here, no one has a right to own one, it's in no country's consitution as a basic human right that citizens are entitled to a BJD at all costs. If you can't afford to buy the BJD you want, save up for longer until you've got the money you need. It might take a while, but at least you can look at your purchase and know that it's 100% legal and above board and the person who made it got paid for their hard work.

      If I was an artist producing dolls and I saw my work being ripped off and my prices being undercut, I'd take my ball and go home, and be perfectly within my rights to do so. When has it ever been acceptable to consider your wish to own something is more important than the creator's right to be paid for their creation?

      I don't download illegally, I don't copy CDs, I don't copy DVDs, I don't buy bootleg handbags, shoes or jewellery. I don't invest in fakes. This is why I resent the constant prattle of 'Oh, people are such hypocrites, they'll complain about recast dolls, but they'll download music.' I don't know about you, generalised person, but I'm not a hypocrite or a thief.
       
    13. Totally agree with you, Jessica. I also get p*ssed off at the constant assumption that everyone downloads illegal music/films/software, etc... Just because you (general) do that doesn't mean that I (specific) do it, so don't call me a hypocrite ;)

      I also can't get my head round the usual wail of "I want it but I can't afford to pay that!!!" either. The world is pretty much a great big shop window of things I would LOVE to have but can't afford... so, guess what, I do without. When did having a luxury lifestyle become the norm, at least in some people's heads?
       
    14. Quoting for truth! Some of the recasts of smaller dolls, eg Pipos and Lati, are less than $100 cheaper than the real thing. What's the point of that!
       
    15. @IratxeEowyn:

      I'm sorry if you feel offended about my post, but Kim actually explained the real problem quite well.
      I got to know that in Spain exists a very active recast forum and that Soom recasts are a normal thing, therefor I won't buy a Soom second-hand in Spain anymore.
      You see that the guys who buy recasts in your country harmed your market and that people might not trust you, even though you are a legit doll-owner who has never purchased a recast!
      And that's one of these problems we are facing here, people get harmed without having done anything bad.

      It's the same with Russia, a Russian friend told me that Iplehouse recasts are very common, so of course I won't buy an Iplehouse in Russia from now on.
      And the list goes on and on.

      @renee_chan:

      When you are reading the confession blogs etc. it really seems to be like that.
      People were saying they prefer buying a recast of a Soom for being "in" than buying a cheap doll from a not so popular brand and being mocked for it.
      Some said that their recast is more worth than any original BBB/RS/insert-cheap-company-here doll etc.
      A lot of these confessions really made me wonder, even though I'm not 100% sure if all of these confessions were REAL confessions and not only made to anger people.

      These tumblrs, the new recast forum etc. showed a lot of stuff I never thought of or well...didn't want to think of. There are enough "famous" owner who own recasts, next to staff people etc.
      The situation right now is like we've opened the box of Pandora, just that the problems were always there...we just tried to ignore them as long as possible.


      And it's true that a lot of people don't care what others say and still keep buying recasts...but in reality a lot of them fear the stigma. A friend of mine created an account on this recast forum and reads there, and she's actually quite amused about how everyone is like "OMG, I'm so afraid someone might found out that I own a recast", especially because a lot of them own original dolls beside them.
      They are afraid that their real dolls might be frowned upon as "Well, it's just another recast anyway" and that they might be kicked outta here.
      When reading the confessions and asks on the recast tumblr it's visible that next to the "I don't give a fuck" people you have a lot of people who are afraid of being stigmatized and feel bad due the constant anti-recast atmosphere that's being present in the hobby. In the end a lot of them decide against buying a recast because of that reason, especially when it's a doll not available like that (like grey skin Iplehouse and such) and therefor will be very easy recognized as a recast.

      River has said something very true about the recast tumblr:
      The fact they provide pictures and try to "help" recognizing recasts is itself a fine thing.
      The fact they post shop-links and instructions how to buy these recasts is not.
      And next to that the photos don't help at all since you don't really see any details. The whole thing seems like a bad excuse for people to buy easily recasts.
       
    16. I wanted to jump in here to say that as the person who is currently running BJD Text Confessions, I don't think there is such a large pool of English-speaking bootleg collectors than people appear to think there is. Yes, there is quite a bit of debating that went on in that blog over anonymous submissions for and against bootlegging-- however, the timing of the submissions (someone who is engaged in a conversation is more likely to be sitting there, refreshing for a response-- and thus is the same person answering to the responses over period of time) along with the writing styles lead me to believe that it was maybe two or three of the same people defending themselves (who are probably the people who went on to create the two recast Tumblrs) against maybe five or six people trying to shame them out of what they do.

      I realize that Tumblr isn't a good reflection of the BJD community, I just really don't think there's as many bootlegged dolls and bootleg owners in this hobby as is being suggested in this thread. What does seem true is that the bootleg owners often have many bootlegs, in addition to legitimate dolls. This is all more hand waving though-- as there aren't good numbers on this unless someone does a survey. As a result, I'll probably make a survey later to see what can be learned from all this, though.

      Anyway, I do not mean to say that, "There aren't that many! Everyone go home now!" I'm trying to steer the discussion away from devolving into, "There are so many recasts! Everywhere! Hiding!" --> "No way, recasts are pervasive even on DoA? I don't keep up with this issue, so I am very swayed by what you said!" --> "Don't you know that in every nook and cranny of this hobby are hidden recasts, waiting to be picked up by you in the marketplace so that the owner can make a pretty penny? Thieves, liars, scoundrels! The marketplace is flooded with them!" I think a large portion of the consumer market for bootlegged dolls are outside of the community, because the Western and Asian communities holding artistic integrity to such high esteem when it comes to doll makers (even if there is wishy washy areas, like dolls based off of existing works such as Vampire Hunter D without the copyright owner's permission).

      Overall, I still don't think harassment is justified. Discuss, learn, sway with reason. Don't personally bully, shame, and belittle the owner directly with some false sense of justice that the owner is getting their deserved comeuppance and the belief that by chasing the bootleg owner around the internet with insults, a Bootleg Fighting Vigilante can go to bed that night feeling satisfied that she had done something productively against recasting and bootlegging. Actions like that drive the bootleg owners further underground, and then once again the BJD community as a whole loses its only source of information on bootlegging.

      If someone dislikes the bootleg owners for just buying bootlegs, seethe quietly if needed and then approach the bootleg owners rationally. Not liking what someone else does does not give a person the express permission to attack them without repercussions too. As someone else mentioned already, more wrongs doesn't make things right. If I ever ran into someone who had a recast at a meet, for instance, I wouldn't dramatically toss their recast into the trash and bodily shove them out of the meet. That doesn't make me a hero, and that isn't even anywhere close to fixing this bootlegging problem. I would probably ask them where they got it, if I can examine it possibly next to an original, and curiously ask if they'd share with me why they bought it. This way I come away from the encounter knowing another source of recasts to be aware of, having a feel for that brand of recast and its resin, and have more information about the consumers for recasts so that perhaps some creative solutions can be found through the collection of information.

      There's a huge difference between productively discussing with someone and outright attacking them, and so far I've mostly seen attacks get posted on the confession blogs and recast Tumblrs instead of reasoned arguments.

      I agree with this too, or else I wouldn't have opened the thread or allowed the discussion for recasts and bootlegging on BJD Text Confessions.

      Yes, and I really do not think that was the best course of action in the first place. As a result of the hush over recasts, recasts were assumed to be not bought at all and for forever being pieces of trash that would be instantly identifiable and easy to avoid. It's different now because the vocal few who have them have showed the community proof through photos of the high quality of recasts along with discussion about how backdoor sales do happen, and that by existing as owners of them that bootleg dolls and owners aren't mythical creatures of lore and legend such as majestic herds of Volks elitists stampeding down hills made up of cheap dolls and their owners.

      Also, I think people shouldn't assume that recasts are all made out of "shitty" materials. They still cost quite a bit, and the recast companies are working very hard at making them as close to the real thing as possible-- digital scanning and extremely positive reviews on recast resin and overall construction is proof of that too.
       
    17. I've read through this thread, and feel there needs to be something that is discussed in further detail. There are some comments about the secondary market being hurt because people are less trusting of it. The recast debate has had supporters and owners of recasts stating that they don't expect everyone to agree with them and don't want to force anything onto those who don't believe in buying or supporting recasts.

      These people have also said that they wouldn't sell a recast without divulging that it's a recast, so why is everyone so quick to assume that the secondary market is flooded with bootleg dolls?

      I think it's pretty crappy to just assume because these people have recasts that they're willing to rip off other collectors. So how about instead of the rallying cry of "Think of the second-hand market!" we take that out of the picture.

      Not that I condone it, but I have seen some people state that they consider buying recasts because of some limited dolls being sold at inflated prices in the second-hand market.

      In short, the market is just fine as is, and I don't see these people ruining it in anyway, unless scared collectors panic and are overly cautious about second-hand markets. Panic and suspicion over every doll sold on there will ruin the market place.

      At that point, it's not the bootleg owners fault but our own.
       
    18. But just because you're offended doesn't mean the statement isn't true. Even before the tumblr 'outbreak', I remember seeing at least 9 people on flickr who openly admitted their dolls were recast AND they came from Spain. I saw maybe 2 or 3 non Spanish people who had such dolls (And I wasn't looking out for anyone, just mindlessly browsing). You can't tell me that's simply a coincidence now?

      Basically, it's like a Chinese person saying "I'm offended that you said all the recasts and bootlegs and fake items come from China." Yes, if we outright say that people from XYZ country are thieves and cheaters, then that's not on. But Ara* said none of those things, just that there was a flux of recasts in Spain, and that she'd be careful. Don't blame other Countries, blame the people who give you legit doll owners a bad rep by default.
       
    19. @BunnyKimber:
      It's a "better safe than sorry" mentality that's going on right now.
      Of course it's bad to assume that every recast owner wants to rip you off, but what kind of other options do we have?
      We either trust them, and might or might not be ripped off, or we don't buy from them.
      The latter is the safest option, sadly.

      A lot of recast owner say "I would NEVER sell a recast without saying something", but you always have bad apples in your basket. There will always be people who DO these things.
      And furthermore: The hobby has a strong buy and sell mentality, a lot of people don't keep their dolls forever (hell, some won't keep them for a week), so what are people going to do with their recasts?
      Simply throwing them away?
      I honestly don't think so.
       
    20. But what makes you think that these "honest bootleggers" aren't a tiny minority? What makes you think the majority of bootleggers won't sell fakes without disclosure? If someone is OK with recasting, or commissioning or buying a recast, why wouldn't it be logical to assume that they would rip you off while looking you right in the eye?

      So I don't buy that lip-service, not for a second. If they really were against "forc[ing] anything onto those who don't believe in buying or supporting recasts", they would refuse to buy or support recasts. As it stands, they ARE forcing things onto us: the presence of fake dolls being sold as real on the secondhand market. These people ARE part of the problem.