Recasts and Bootlegging

Unfortunately these "affairs of others" are harming OUR community. That IS our business.

It's hard for me to believe someone would support art theft yet be honest in all other business dealings so, no, I wouldn't knowingly buy from someone who intentionally purchases recasts. However, as this thread shows, honest people can still end up with recasts through no fault of their own. I'd have no problem buying from someone who had inadvertently purchased a recast.

I'm sorry that happened to you, Ratty. Agreeing with Anna: you don't have to worry about regaining trust just because you bought a doll that turned out to be a recast. Being a victim of fraud is entirely different from seeking out a bootleg.

 

I've only ever bought dolls factory-direct. But some of the dolls I'm looking at buying are no longer produced, so I'll have to buy second-hand. So counterfeit dolls are just one more thing to add to the list of concerns! But hopefully an uncommon occurrence.

 

....I just came back from looking at a recast website, and I threw up in my mouth a little. Not only are they shameless copies but they used company photos too.

Someone mentioned Witch-hunts?

Yes, I totally agree to "witch-hunts" ban them from DoA and put up a hall of shame for these people who knowingly and willingly supported recasters.
There should be no mercy to those who continue to pollute our hobby with trash like the dolls they copied. Who is to say that they will sink lower and sell the copied dolls to an unknowing buyer without stating that it's a copy for fear of reprisal?
Liers and thieves have no place in my hobby!

As for those who unknowingly brought recasts, I sincerely hope that they go thought the legal process to get their money back. Because no one deserves to get scammed, it's a forgivable mistake that can be fixed by suing the seller for being sold a "Fake"

In my personal opinion, (and you can hang me up on a rack for this.) Those who where scammed who do nothing to get their money back or don't expose the fraudulent seller is just as guilty as those who knowingly/willingly brought from recasters.
Because no information puts another person at risk to be scammed again and again.

*waves inquisition flag*

 

Okay, I know I said I wasn't responding in this thread again... but sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut. Sue me.

I can... somewhat agree with you... The key word is somewhat. There should be no room for acceptance of recasts. It is blatantly illegal, and even if it is an inevitable thing, it should be spoken out against.

I do not however agree with this whole "witch-hunt" idea. We have no right, no right to stalk people just because we think they own a recast. And even if they own one, I'm sorry but unless they break the forum rules by posting photos and lying that it is authentic or selling and lying the same way, there is no grounds to ban anyone just because you are suspicious. Now if they talk about said recast, they should be served warning... if they continue, then ban them for all I care, since they would be breaking rules.

There is a difference between being an activist for a cause and harassing people, and this "witch-hunt" in my opinion would be nothing but that: blatant harassment.

Here's the problem I see with this. Say the buyer bought this recast from someone oversees. Say they bought it from someone, who then completely disappears off of the face of the internet. It may not be easy, or even within the buyers financial means to sue or get their money back. Are they still guilty then?

If I ever found myself in this situation, I am not exactly financially able to go sue someone for selling me a knock off toy. Does that automatically make me the same criminal as the one who is proud of their recast?

I'm sorry, but the problem with people who were scammed is not black and white like that, and just because they don't sue does not mean they deserve to be put in the same pool as those who knowingly bought recasts. And what if they hesitate to speak out about being scammed out of humiliation? Does that make them guilty of a crime? No! It doesn't. What if they hold their tongue because they fear being labeled a criminal who buys "trash"? What if they are afraid that they will be called a liar, and that really they are "just saying" they were scammed so they won't get any backlash?

Things said in this thread do create awareness. It does show that we as a community will not accept art theft. But it can also create fear. Not just fear of the MP, but fear of what would happen should one come forward and admit to being scammed.

I think that just because someone does not want to come forward, it does not make them guilty. As long as they learn from their mistake and join us in speaking out against this crime, they are still an innocent victim.

 

I don't think this is a scenario that you can afford to be coy about. When did this happen and what face-up artist(s) was involved? If this sort of thing is going on, then I think it would be very important to share who it is so others can avoid it happening to them. Otherwise you would just be spreading speculative hearsay to stir the pot, and I'm sure that's not what you intended.

 

Witch hunts are never a good thing. They usually develop out of a good intention, and then spurn off into paranoia. It can easily turn into something out of hand. Soon, people are falsely accused, or accused for strange reasons... it can only lead to chaos, and will get us fighting so much that the whole intent backfires. Paranoia feeds paranoia; I think the strongest things we can do as members who support legit companies is to support those companies, educate other members, and to oppose those who support and knowingly buy recast dolls.

I can also understand why a person might need some time before coming forward to say they were scammed. They might be more focused on getting their money back and then decide to spread the word. They also might be embarrassed, like someone else said, that here they're thinking they're getting the doll of their dreams, when they're getting a fake copy. I know I'd feel pretty crappy after that. And I'd feel even crappier if I went around, saying how I loved my new doll to my doll friends, my family, and everyone in between... only to find out at some point that my doll wasn't the real thing.

I wouldn't even want to tell anyone I found out because I'd be worried that they'd be thinking or saying "Really; you couldn't tell? You should be more careful so that kind of thing doesn't happen." I'd be feeling embarrassed, and ashamed that I couldn't tell - and after I'd spent some time raving about how awesome my doll was and how happy I was to have it.

Eventually, I'd pick myself off the ground, come forward, and tell my story. I'd be helping other people out in the process, and I would find out that other people were duped at some point; I would find out that it isn't so easy to tell a bootleg from the original sometimes. We should encourage those who have been duped and are too embarrassed to speak up to do so. Many owners have had the unfortunate luck of being duped, and even those who are pretty good at knowing dolls sculpts have probably had a poor experiance, too.

 

It is my belief in this is black and white, no quarter given should be given to Recasters and those who knowingly support their ways.

I am all up for the Witch-hunt, despite what you may think of it. The less "free advertisement" we see for Recasters and Bootleggers the better! And what better way then drive those who support them underground and out of sight?
They may keep their "trash" dolls if they wish, but to see them paraded around as the real thing offends me.


I am well aware that the seller could simply disappear but who's to say they won't come back under another guise? The quick easy way to scam more people is often too much of a temptation to such people to stop.
(Read up on the Edmoton scammer, they operated under many names.) and despite which country they live in, There is always a trail to follow and people in the hobby who may aid you in bringing scammers to justice.


I wouldn't judge a person for being scammed, it is not their fault. But by doing nothing, Saying nothing, will just encourage the scammers to do it again.

I'm just saying that the scammed should reveal what information they have had about the transaction so that other people can be informed so that they know what to look out for.

 

What "free advertisement"!? The only free advertisement would be advertising that we are a group of intolerant, hateful assholes who want to stir up trouble to get our jollies. That's what your "witch hunt" will get you.

Your witch hunt is not protesting. Perhaps its intent is to drive away the problem, create an environment where it cannot thrive. But all it will do is blow up in your face and turn into nothing but a hot mess of needless fighting.

If you're all for that idea you must also be all for people pointing fingers and falsely accusing for not better reason then because they don't like someone. You must be all for scaring people who would want to join this hobby and this community, and driving out other users. Again: that is what your "witch hunt" will get you. Pretty soon you'd be left with nothing more than a shriveled shell of a community, that's full of people who just want to harass and cause problems.

Witch hunting is not fighting for a cause. It's destructive.

But go ahead. If you want to go on your witch hunt, you go right ahead. But don't expect those of us that think rationally to back you up when someone reports you for harassment.

 

I have to agree with writerm. Witch-hunts are not the answer to stop bootlegging. Awareness and education is. DoA has a very strong stance on recasts - they are not allowed on the forum, period. The majority of the community has also made it clear, through this massive thread, that we do not accept or condone copyright infringement.

Throughout history, witch-hunts have proven to have disastrous results (McCarthyism, Stalin's Great Purge, Inquisition, etc.). What starts out with good intentions can spiral out of control very easily and very quickly. Please, let's not bring this into our hobby.

I feel strongly about the issue of recasts as well, and believe that we should have an ongoing discussion about legalities and repercussions of art theft, but keep it civil and without going to extremes.

 

While a literal witch-hunt isn't the way to go about this, I think the community taking a strong stance against recast is having the desired effect with some people. The fear of being ostracized if anyone found out you PURPOSEFULLY bought a recast and then lied about it (or even if you didn't lie about it), keeps quite a few collectors from buying recasts.

I don't think this is a bad thing. I understand that pointing fingers at people and being suspicious of them without cause and actively seeking out recast owners like some sort of doll inquisition isn't the right way to go about it, but like I said before, community backlash is the ONLY weapon we have against these people right now. The authorities aren't going to do anything, so we have to take a strong stance about it if we want to uphold the artists' rights.

 

It's good you mentioned historical instances, Anna.

If we allow witch hunts to happen, everyone's at risk - possibly even those who start the witch hunt. That's what paranoia does. Soon, someone who doesn't like you* will accuse you of supporting recasts just to get you in trouble. Someone who doesn't think you care enough about how bad recasts are is going to accuse you of being a supporter. Witch hunts spiral out of control and they don't solve anything.

(*you=general sense)

 

I take the side of Ethra_VII regarding "witch-hunts". In theory, this ferreting out of the bad guys is all well and good. But in practice, it boils down to cyber stalking and bullying, and even sometimes to real physical bullying. And that's wrong.

What's more, this pitch-fork wielding attitude is twisted and justified by the other side as signs of unhealthy reasoning and therefore undermines our position in this Anti-recast/bootleg campaign. When you suspect someone of knowingly engaging in recast/bootleg buying-selling, collect sufficient evidence and report it to the authorities (the company involved, your local law unit, etc.). Under NO circumstances are you entitled to send that person a scathing message about his worth as a human being whatsoever. You can politely decline their efforts to parade their recasts about, you can endeavor your community to prevent them from participating in your group activities, but you are not entitled to march down on their doorsteps and call them heathens. ^_^

Let's all do our part the right way. Let's not put the law into our own hands. Vigilantism is, unfortunately, as harmful as it is helpful.

 

In addition, say this whole "witch hunt" thing actually took place. That would mean that unless you bought direct from the company, or if you bought second hand and got a certificate with your doll, you would be in danger of being targeted.

"you don't have a cert! You didn't buy from the atists themselves! You must have bought a recast! FILTHY CRIMINAL!"

I bought my doll's head second hand because I wanted just the head and Luts doesn't sell the heads by themselves. The moment I have a bunch of people down my throat, calling me a criminal and my doll bootleg garbage, I'm bouncing and never coming back.

I will not be involved in something that is just as disgusting as the act of creating recasts.

And that is what this "witch hunt" will create. You can say all you want that it won't, but as Anna said, you only need look at history.

 

I'm not sure why people think we're going to start and ACTUAL witch-hunt here. The way I see it, this whole thing was started by this quote: "Anonymous asked: I already own several dolls from different companies and I want to buy a recast doll of a doll I missed out on. I'm concerned about this witch-hunt currently happening on the doll forums, I'm worried that if someone catches me with my recast doll that no one will want to buy things from me ever again, even though I would never sell the recast doll."

This is a quote from a person who was thinking of buying a recast doll, and I'm sure that from the illegal side of things, people doing the right thing and not accepting their illegal actions looks like a witch hunt.

And sure there are the occasional 14 year olds and trolls who will go and harass people for their recasts, but I think that we've established that 98% of the people here do not condone those actions. Right?

 

No one said we were going to actually start a witch hunt. I know I certainly didn't. But I will not support a person who thinks that is the proper way to go. And you need only scroll to the third post on this page and see where that declaration of support came from.

If we are going to say it is wrong to not speak out against recasts, then it is wrong to not speak out against those who support these so called "witch hunts".

 

You think just because I am in favor of a witch-hunt that I'm actually going to do it? Or the mods of DoA would even allow such a thing to happen? It's unrealistic, both morally and ethically.

Since when is discussing an activity in a debate thread is a confirmation of engaging in said activity?
This is a debate, not a call to arms. Expressing one's opinions and explaining them is not the same as going out and doing it.


Ethra_VII: You have offered another facet to add to this debate: How do you know that the buyers of re-cast dolls don't already see us as elitist assholes already?

 

Because we've been watching you guys grab the pitchforks and light the torches with a sort of horrified fascination. I realize everyone is stirred up, but I really feel the mods are not doing anyone a favor by letting this thread continue. It's breaking down into hysterical ranting.

 

I don't think even that person is really suggesting we do a salem style witch-hunt guys. I believe you MAY be overreacting a bit.

Anyway, I think that making recasters and recast buyers thoroughly unwelcome is the best we can do. There's no point in "hunting down" people with recasts. It just really isn't worth the effort. And accusing someone of knowingly buying recasts is a good way to get burned yourself in this hobby! I'm not sure if anyone remembers when someone said that the staff of DoA buy recasts and everyone turned on the person saying it?

Whoawhoawhoa. When did I ever grab a pitchfork? Stop putting words in my mouth. :\ I really do not appreciate it.
Just because I don't want to smile and give asspats and hugs and be all rainbows and sunshine with these jerks doesn't mean I'm grabbing a pitchfork and going to go crusade for the dolls.

 

They probably do! And you know what? That's just fine with me. I'd rather be a perceived elitist asshole who bought real toys than someone who buys cheap knock offs.

But I believe someone previously made the remark that the elitist is the one that feels they are only validated in this hobby by owning an expensive doll like a Soom or Volks, and that is their justification for buying a recast. So then if they believe we are the elitists, then we can add "hypocrite" to the already established "criminal" label.

Further, I agree with mosaicwolf. This thread has turned into nothing but fruitless arguing, ranting and the stroking of some egos. There is nothing that has not been touched on and driven into the ground, and this thread's continuation will only breed trouble if it hasn't already.

 

I agree with this. I think everyone's said what needed to be said - and I think we've done so for a good number of pages. I don't think I've seen anything new brought to the table for some time.

I didn't think that a witch hunt would ever take off the ground because I know that the mods would never let such a thing happen. But I did feel that some clarification as to why a witch hunt is never a good idea was needed.