Recasts and Bootlegging

Yes, agreed, I think that we should all calm down for a second and think carefully before we all post something we are going to regret later.


"Witch-hunt": Not a lot of support, Too many things can go wrong, it's unrealistic, it's morally wrong.

That's it for that topic, let's let it die.

I could hug you for this comment. I so agree with you with this.

(Ps: And I apologize for getting you so riled up with my previous comments.)

 

I think we've well established the point we all wanted to make. We don't support recasts. We won't support anyone who buys them and those that try to bring them into our community will not be welcomed.

I don't see why we can't just leave it at that and go back to enjoying our dolls...

@Elysion gear
You have no need to apologize. We can't all agree on everything, and as you said, this is a debate. I just felt the need to voice my own opinion, just as you did. No hard feelings here at all.

 

Honestly I do not remember who the artist is (it was not an artist I had respect for or I'd ever use myself or is a popular one, it was not a DOA member). So I didn't care to remember his/her name. I'm not trying to put down any face-up artist's reputation and I think perhaps some of them are upset to read my comment. But it was something that did happen and under strong suspicion so I want to mention it. And we can never prove that particular artist really did that because it's not like him/her is going to admit it if it's true. However, I believe an scandalous face-up artist like that is 1 in a million.

I want to say that, whenever I post something new I always have to think carefully about whether I should post anything at all (same goes for my fake headplate/bootleg photo thread, I was hesitant in posting it too at first). I never want to cause a big chaos by posting new information and don't want to cause people problems or make things more difficult for them so..........it is sometimes stressful and uncomfortable for me when I have information but cannot decide if I should just not post them here and what not. Should I let people here know? Or should I just keep it to myself...are they going to believe me? That kind of thing. I had already let out a lot of information here and there on DOA (not just on the topic of recasts but others such as Dolk and Crobi scandal which has nothing to do with this particular thread), because I feel it was so wrong that I must say something, so I did. If I didn't, nobody here would know about it. I do not really regret them but sometimes I do feel I'm being scrutinized and questioned at times for them.

 

Yes, yes. Crime and morality are TOTALLY black and white. That's why someone who smokes pot by themselves at home should be put to death just the same as someone who downloads a song or murders children. Crime is crime, after all. This is why the United States court system totally doesn't have different levels of intensity (misdemeanor, felony, civil case, tort, infraction) and different types of courts to handle different types of crime and personal disputes. It's not like the government system was designed with the intention of accounting for the fact that some crimes ARE in fact worse than others or anything.

And of course we all know that morality isn't subjective at all or anything, and that something might seem worse to someone than to someone else because of point of view, moral code or life experiences. Because everyone in the world has the exact same moral code guys, didn't you know? And of course, adult people with different views than you have NO RIGHT to make that sort of call for themselves without your input.

This means we need to not only hunt them down on the internet and ban them from our clubhouse, but we should also punish them and stalk them. You know, to make sure they don't do any harm. We, in fact, should shun ANYONE who EVER recasts ANYTHING.

So we should ban and hunt down recasters, forever, right? Never forgive them or support them for their awful, recasting ways?

So, we all remember that one of Dollzone's first dolls released was a recast of a different doll, right?



#Sarcasmonalevelthatwilllikelygetmebanned

No, I'm not pro-recasts. No, I don't think they should be on this forum. Yes, I do think they harm the hobby as a whole by causing market place distrust and financial strain on artists. Yes, the mods of this forum have a right to decide upon the rules and enforce them as they see fit. But hunting people down online and stalking their blogs, photo accounts and other things, for the sole purpose of harassing them, "outing" them, humiliating them and opening them up to consistant harassment? NOT COOL. NOT OK. Add to the fact that live, in person meetups are a part of this hobby, and that some members of the forum know who other people in their area are in real life, and you get a vibe that I am deeply, deeply not cool with. Stalking and Bullying are crimes too, you know.

 

@eptrauma: Argue all you want about the shades of wrongness recasting falls on, but that will never make it right. Big or small, it's still wrong. Your citing of the penal system backfires, because as you yourself said, every crime has a fitting punishment. :P

And Dollzone reformed. The community rejoices. We do not want pro-recast people to crawl in a hole and die. We want them to STOP supporting recasts.

For every snarker there is an equal and opposite pedant. :p

 

This. It's much less rude than what I was going to say and gets the point across just as well.

We don't want the people making or buying recasts SHUNNED FOREVAR AND EVAR, just, y'know, not welcomed until they get a clue and stop recasting/buying recasts. They realise that it's not a good idea and that the vast majority of people don't like it, stop doing it and give a genuine "Sorry, I know I shouldn't have done this and it won't happen again", and they're just as welcome as anyone else.

Also, I would like to point out that people here aren't actually hunting people down, nor are they (generally) advocating hunting people down, for recasting or buying recasts. Pointing them out and speaking out against them when they themselves are advertising that they're buying or selling recasts, yes. Making it clear that being or supporting a recaster is unacceptable through disallowing their participation in the community, yes. Stalking/harassing/hounding them? Not so much.

 

I don't know if people realize just how nice DoA really is. We are really freaking nice and forgiving. I think in many other hobbies, Dollzone probably wouldn't have been forgiven, the Leekeworld/company that made the puns and Unoa/Narae incidents would still be talked about, and the dollshe/dollmore incident would probably still be floating around.

We forgive companies that screw up easily once they fix things almost immediately, when in some other places it would take a while for that company to get its reputation back (IE Fairyland).

I don't get why people who support recasters think we're going to go out and hunt them down like animals, because if they just stop breaking the law, maybe apologize (it'd be nice) and come back, most of us will welcome them with open arms.

I think I'll say it again, in case the two posts by Yldenfrei and Hominivorax didn't get the point across. We are a really nice and forgiving community. Really.

 

I only knew about Leekeworld from last year (and I think the company you're thinking of was Doll Chateau).

I also agree with the other part of your post. If someone decides tomorrow that this recast idea was a terrible idea, and decide to do the honest thing from then on out, I'll be OK with that. Granted, it will still take some time for me to ever want to buy from them, but if they show through their actions that they really mean to do good, then great.

I dislike the fact that anyone would want to take matters into their own hands because it will most likely backfire. Choosing not to do business or participate in discussion with known recast supporters/buyers should be enough. We don't have to resort to name-calling, or like someone else said, it just fuels the fire for the recast supporters to call us crazy, cranky people who can't keep ourselves in check when our feathers get a little ruffled.

Expressing our feelings on how wrong it is to bootleg and buy a recast is not crazy - DoA should be a place for some degree of catharsis on this subject - but we have to keep level heads.

 

No, it definitely wasn't Doll Chateau. It was a French company whose name is completely escaping me. @_@

And yeah, I agree it would probably take me a bit before I bought from that person again, but forgiving? That'll definitely happen. xD

 

Yes! Thank you!

 

Throughout this thread words like 'amnesty' and 'forgiveness' were used in relation to people who have been scammed, when frankly: there is nothing to forgive. If you are duped, you have done nothing wrong. If you'd like to keep the doll, keep it. It's yours, you can do whatever you want with it. Just don't sell it.

EDIT

I know most of you probably already do this, but... In regards to the campaign Iplehouse is about to start, if any of you know any websites that sell bootleg Iplehouse dolls, please tell them and tell them how you got the information.
They responded to an Q&A question of mine, but I simply don't know any sellers.

 

Good point. Maybe it's the fear of witchhunt more then the reality of it? I do get the impression that for some people any amount of anger, even very justified and constructive anger, is just a Bad Thing, period. It doesn't matter that it's deserved and has a function and makes a point, anger = negativity = bad. Therefore anger cannot have a place towards Good.
I personally see this as personal and cultural values. And while I completely disagree I do have a level of respect and sympathy for it, these people aren't trolling but genuinely abhor the 'negativity' of anger and outspokenness and that's the stance they are speaking from.



There's another part though where I don't think people are speaking out of the goodness of their hearts at all, but just use it as a counterstrategy. Attack as defense, accusation as defense, stuff like that.

>nice, sane argument by anti-recast person
>recast enabler: OMG witchhunt!!!

It's classic really, turning the criminal into the victim. If you fall for it. It also bypasses all those sharp, intelligent arguments against recasts that they know they are unable to counter because recasts are in fact theft/a crime.

It's funny how little actual counterarguments are given, isn't it? As if everyone, even the bootlegbuyers, understand theft is a Bad Thing. So the argument keeps getting back to things that don't counter the basic given of how theft is a Bad Thing: how other people have no right to judge other people, how downloading is theft too, how calling criminal behaviour criminal is OMGwitchhunt, etc.
Which basically means they are very aware that what they are doing is wrong, but they are arguing their right to do it anyway.

 

I know, I know!!
because (theatrical pause), people like drama. They make fuss about any tiny thing.
I mean, how difficult is that? One person worked hard, made a thing from a scratch, and started to sell to people. Another person bought it, recast it, and started to sell to people as well. In the first case, we also have tax paid by an artist, legal way of business, and an our right to complain if thing is bad. In second case, we get... what we get.
I don't care about apologizing, and neither I will be "open armed" - I don't trust words but actions, and "open arms" should be earned (like most of good things in life).
And I definitely not gonna be "tolerant" n "supportive" for theft n thieves - why would I? It's like a polygraph test, if u did nothing wrong yourself, you wouldnt support criminal neither be "tolerant" toward them. I can understand what made them do that - lack of money, greed, lack of information about bjds/hobby - but I wouldn't support for the their choice. This is it, simple like a coin with two sides - u r either do this or you don't. No need of drama.

 

That's all I am seeing from the side who is now freaking out about the witch hunts that will definitely not be happening. They know they're wrong, they know their actions have consequences, and they are trying to weasel out of them by making themselves the victim.

Do I think that should sufficient evidence come to light that someone has been posting their recast on DoA or has sold a recast on this forum, that they should be banned? I do. They're violating the DoA ToS and dirtying the forum. But that is always a decision made at the discretion of the mods.

I've never forgotten, and it's why they never have seen a single cent of business from me, nor will they ever see any sort of business from me in the future. If it had been my forum to run, they wouldn't have been allowed back on.

The punishment for posting and selling recasts within the community seems fairly in line with the scope of the crime. No one is suggesting that recast buyers be shot or physically harmed or detained. Ostracism from the community for participating in harmful acts sounds about right to me. You can't follow the rules and play with nice with others and not be an art stealing entitled jerk, you don't get to play with others and enjoy the benefits of the community.

 

I have always felt forgiving Dollzone was innapropriate, and now i think it's coming back to bite us. In this hobby ripping off the creators is the big taboo, and we didn't take a hard stance when we could have done.

I don't treat dollzone owners any different, but I am still boycotting their products.

 

The whole Witch Hunt stupidity is just trying to paint those who obey the rules and stand up for the rights of artists not to be ripped off (and for the rights of people in this hobby and community not to be ripped off either) as wierdos who are baying for blood. Counter propaganda. That makes us look like the villains and allows them to cry victim, sleight of hand again, make everyone forget that they are the ones who did wrong in the first place.

 

They have the right to 'make that sort of call for themselves' exactly until where they stop thinking and start acting. From there on, they have NO RIGHT to do what they do. That is wat law means. Something prohibited by law means you have NO RIGHT to do it.

They can still do it ofcourse. For example because they lack the inner moral code or conscience that would stop most people from doing things that would hurt others. Like stealing. So someone who lacks the inner moral code to stop him/herself from stealing can say it is completely a-ok for them to steal (people will usually never run out of excuses to justify their own behaviour) and go out stealing.
So that's where we invented law. To stop the unscrupulous people from hurting the scrupulous ones. To let everybody respect everyone elses basic rights, and hold you accountable if you don't. It's a good system, lots of benefits. Like making it possible to live in peace together, even with the people who do not have much inner moral code. Because law will act as the moral code, and no-one is exempt from law.

So, to adress your point again: your moral codes or lack of them towards a behaviour like stealing don't mean anything in any other sphere then 'personal morality'. You still will be required to behave towards other persons, treat them nonthreatening, with respect for their lives AND PROPERTY, whether you want to or not. That's why law was invented in the first place. To hold you accountable no matter your personal wants and desires, no matter your personal moral code (or lack of it), and no matter the excuses you make for yourself.

Everybody has (been given) basic rights and law protects them from another person's personal wants.



I'm not sure whether you are interested in this as an actual subject but if you are you might find this an interesting read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

 

I would take bets that there are a few people who secretly own recasts on this forum who are probably stalking this thread and they know how "OMG, RAGE!!!1!!!" this thread has gotten at some points. (We're not unjustified, IMO, and I definitely think they should be concerned about the consequences of their actions, but I've been following this thread from the start, and even I think it's gotten pretty intense sometimes.)

Our upset/anger/etc. over this issue challenges their belief (read: delusion) that they are within their rights to purchase recast dolls, so they get all "Drama-Llama Defense UP!" A classic "the lady doth protest too much" situation.

I don't think it was inappropriate. They have cleaned up their act; they make and sell original dolls now. I wouldn't have bought from them when I first started the hobby, but now... sure.

I don't think it does any good to ban a company on past behavior when they've shown that they are honest now. We shouldn't forget, no, but I don't think recidivism (repeat offense) is likely in Dollzone's case, since I think they have a pretty good share of the legit market. (e.g. positive reinforcement for good behavior)

Same goes for anybody who buys recasts, IMO. If a recast owner popped up and said "Hey, I used to do this but I don't now, I'm replacing them all with the real thing." and maybe shared information we should know about how to identify recasts... I would be wary of that person, but I would want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

Because I have to ask, how was forgiving Dollzone coming back to bit us? I'm not debating your right to not want to buy from them, but for the last couple of years they've done a great job of turning around and creating their own sculpts and style and evolving. I could understand if they were still doing simi shady underhanded things, but I haven't heard of anything like that from them recently. Do you feel that we've (the community) have some how set some bad precedent by allowing them to stay? In which case I'd have to disagree and point out that even criminals are released after they've served their time and allowed to reintegrate with society (unless of course they have a life sentence).

I personally don't feel that re-casters and those who buy recasts should have to serve "life sentences" for their actions if they in fact do change and turn around in their course, and realize what they did was bad and selfish. And actually show that they've changed from that moment on.