Recasts and Bootlegging

I do not feel one ounce of empathy to those that buy recasts, then gloats about how they can acquire these dolls for much less. They do this all the time anonymously, which makes them cowards.

If they're so proud of their recasts, get out from the veil of anonymity. You can't have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

The people who buy recasts are no victims. They are a bunch of self-entitled, selfish people who would take the food out of the mouths of artists who earned their pay, in order to satisfy their materialistic desires.

Now they are victims? No.

 

Quite right-- backlash. It'd be funny (funny in a Beckett way) if it weren't so sick and so real. "Officer, someone's stalking my blog. Cyberbullying. Harassment. All I did was buy an illegal recast." Sorta like, "Officer! That prostitute just stole my cocaine! As a citizen, I demand you stop her forthwith!"

But there are actually plenty of NON-hysterics here who recognize an exaggeration or a figure-of-speech when we see one... In this case, I know Elysion Gear doesn't even own a pitchfork, and I know she's not really advocating going out & burning people to death or pressing them under large stones. We know it's not a REAL witch-hunt. Really. There are just some people who like to cry "drama" in order to distract from what was actually said. One must phrase things to get through the hysteria-filter, & add all sorts of literal-minded disclaimers about how you don't really want people's actual blood. It's the internet, which people treat as realer than life, so an impassioned or too-colorful turn of phrase will suffer.

 

How is forgiving Dollzone inappropriate? Because they are a shining example of how people who have done wrong in this hobby can change? How is it coming back to bite us? The community turned against them when they did their crime, and then welcomed them back when they've proved themselves by doing legitimate business *and* putting out some of the most beautiful and creative dolls. If anything, it proved what several people have said: even if you (general you) do wrong by supporting recasts, if you learn the error of your ways and prove yourself to us, we will welcome you back.

If forgiving Dollzone is inappropriate then I suppose former recast owners who changed their ways and proved themselves deserve no welcome either.

I think those of us that argued against Elysion Gear knew full well that she was not advocating an actual witch hunt. I think we all have the intellect to know a figure of speech when we see one... but then again I'm likely wrong about that.

We did not argue against it because we want to distract from the real issue. We argued because even the figurative "witch-hunt" is an absolutely stupid idea that would only gloriously backfire and give this community a bad name. Yeah, we know what she meant. Her intentions were and are the same as all of ours: to create an unwelcomming environment for behavior we do not and will tolerate. And just because she said she wouldn't actually *do* is does not excuse her in the same way that someone is not excused if they support recasters but don't own one of their own.

But really, I thought this whole witch hunt thing had resolved itself last night and that it didn't need talking about again... But just like the whole of this thread, nothing new is being contributed. Things are being dug back up and rehashed because we have nothing new to say, but we still wanna keep on fighting about it.

 

Not sure how to feel, honestly.

If it was a limited sculpt that I will NEVER,EVER see again because the company is like "Nah we're all good with this," and it's been a few years....I think I would go for it.

If the company is never going to do it again, and the sale of 2nd hands is basically Zero...Well, I don't see the harm.

I could never buy one that's in circulation knowingly though, I would feel guilty.

 

@XvPandavX: Clearly you haven't read the rest of the thread and the many reasons not to do it. I predict you will get pounced on.

 

First of all, I have to say you have quite the balls to have posted that here... or you didn't read previous pages.

The sale of second hands is never zero. Even a one-off has the chance of being sold on the second hand market. The thing is, you need to have the patience and the willingness to pay the price for what you love. Many of us do it. And those that can't pay that price simply accept it. Anything less is selfish.

I have dolls on my wishlist that will cost me thousands of dollars each... amounts I could use to pay off a used car in one payment... but I'm willing to save to pay those thousands because those sculpts are worth it to me. The thought of just looking for a recast never crossed my mind.

And Kymera is right. Prepare for some backlash...

 

*siiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*

And now we get to see yet another round of hysterical re-hashing of more then 30 pages of arguments about recasts...

As for the issue of "witch hunts" (god I can't even tell you how sick I am of that term right now, especially in relation to this) no, I don't support stalking, bullying, harassing, or causing physical harm to people who make or buy recasts. But it sure would be nice to know exactly who they all are*. I don't want to give my hard-earned money to recasters or those who buy recasts**, until they make like Dollzone and reform.

* Proof would need to be offered, because there are an awful lot of people around here who are immature enough that I could totally see them whining and accusing an innocent person of making or buying recasts just because that person did some minor thing that hurt the accuser's delicate, special-snowflake feeling.
** As usual, individuals who are duped/scammed into buying a recast under the impression that it is the real thing are completely excluded from this.

 

the context was I was noting three peaceful people who died in violent ways as a result of hate. In other words hate begets violence and brings about horrible consequences (and is best avoided). I was not comparing either side of this argument to them. If anyone here actually read what I posted I'd be far more likely to contribute, but everytime I post people edit what they want to hear and then respond to the edited statement.

 

Not necessarily- in the UK at least, almost all prisoners with a life sentence leave prison at some point. Life, as right wingers are constantly reminding us, doesn't actually mean life. Unless there is a "whole life order" they will have a minimum time served in prison, after which they will be eligible for parole. Apart from that small legal quibble I agree with you.

As far as the whole Dollzone thing goes- yes, they did something wrong. No denying that. But they cleaned up their act and have since been making legit original dolls. Should they really still be punished for sins past? Luckily I don't have to make the moral decision myself as I don't really like their aesthetic, but I DO love DollChateau who (correct me if I'm wrong) are to do with Dollzone. So does that mean, if Dollzone shouldn't be forgiven for their mistakes in the past, that their offshoots shouldn't be forgiven either? Tarred with the same brush, as it were?

I keep trying to put myself in both the shoes of an artist and a person owning recasts. If I sculpted a doll, put all that hard work and energy into making something unique and special, then found it was being knocked-off cheaply for some entitlement brats- you can bet I'd be mad. I'd be spitting feathers! But not at the people who accidently bought a recast thinking it was the real deal. IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT. They've been scammed just like me. The people who did the recast and the people who knowingly supported them? I'd prosecute to the full extent of the law. For what it's worth.

But if, by some peculiar quirk in the fabric of our universe, I realized that all my dolls were recasts, I wouldn't get rid of them. No way. I'd love them just as much, because they'd still be MY babies that I've worked on and created. I wouldn't discuss or post pictures of them here, because that's against the rules and I would hate to be seen as dishonest, but I wouldn't stop playing with them for my own personal pleasure. Yes I would be sad that I had been scammed and an artist ripped off, and over time that may taint my love for them, but I just can't see myself throwing out something I've become attached to, when the harm has been done and destroying them wouldn't help anyone.

 

Uh... yeah. That's what people do, especially in a debate. I think the main reason why this thread is still even getting posts is because people are taking things out of context, arguing against what was clearly their own fabrication, and then people are responding with pats on the back and agreement of said fabrication. It's why arguments that should have died pages ago are still being rehashed, even though they've already resolved themselves.

 

Except it's been said - time and again! - that most of the people on this thread don't support violence or bullying of recast owners, no matter how much we dislike what they are doing. And the worst consequence of our dislike/hate/whatever you want to call it, is that people who are doing something illegal are excluded from our community.

 

It's in a debate page, and I was simply offering my opinion on it, and I don't care if I'm pounced on because it's a forum. It's the internet and I accept the fact that people are going to get angry, if it gets to be too much all I have to do is just X out and sigh about how it's pointless to jump on people for their opinions. I don't have "balls," I just don't care if people get mad at me on the internet.

There are many reasons why not to do it, I understand that. I read through a few of the pages, but there are 33 and I wanted my voice to be heard as well.

Honestly, the chances of myself or anyone I know actually buying a "remake" or "copy" are slim to none. I would have to go hunting for it (which why would I bother? I could find something easier to get that I likely enjoy more with less effort) and would never get the chance to share pictures and work that I did on the doll with any of the community because I would have to face the "RAGE TRAIN" any time I showed their face anywhere.

No reason to get so angry about posting in a debate forum, they were put here for opinions not anger.

 

Not the Rage Train... the Banhammer!

 

Well,lol, likely both.

 

XvPandavX

I certainly wasn't getting angry with you. Yeah, this is a debate, yeah, you are entitled to you opinion. That's fine, and the fact that you know and understand the consequences of what you say (something some don't understand) is good too. The problem is: your first post paints you as a supporter of these recasts... something that we cannot accept either. Even if you know it's wrong, you still "don't see the harm", though there is blatant harm in it.

I was in no way angered by you putting up your opinon, and I hope I did not anger you be responding to it. But you have to be aware that your statement is going to get backlash, people are going to argue against it.

 

So which is it? You do realize that within the space of a half hour you've contradicted yourself, don't you?

The reason to read through the thread apart from respect is that it gives you an opportunity to reflect and formulate your own opinion.

And if you'd read through the thread you would have seen articulated very clearly the idea that a sculptor may very well change his/her mind about rereleasing a limited doll. Soom has done so, and so have other companies.

 

@XvPandavX: My apologies. You didn't offer an explanation or reason with your opinion, so I thought perhaps you didn't fully understand the issue. Though, I would like to know why, even though you understand the arguments, you see no harm in it?

*****************************************************************

I have still, yet to hear an actual, really good, not-selfish reason, why recasts should be OK... so if any recast supporters has one, please lay it on me.

Like a couple of people have said, a lot of this hobby is about saving and patience.

Or DIY. (one of my grail dolls is the ultra hard to find DD-Anne Lotus Near. I accept that I will probably never be able to own one, so I bought a different doll that I'm going have modded to be similar. I'm content with that.)

 

Dusskodesh:I really can't go back through 33 pages of posts to find it now - my head will explode - but (a) were you the first or second perosn to mention Ghandi? I thought you were the second but I could well be wrong (b) I seem to remember that you were talking about not wanting to challenge the views/actions or others even when they break the law or do morally questionable things. At the end of the post there were some * and then you listed Ghandi, MLK and Lennon. If your intent was to use them as examples of peaceful protesters who met violent ends then I have misunderstood, it read to me as though you were saying that they also minded their own business (so to speak). This is a debate thread and when things are stated in an ambiguous way it is easy for the meaning to be lost or corrupted.

I thought the whole point here was to state what you (gen) think and if people disagree fine, also if people have misunderstood your (gen) argument, come back in and elucidate. Isn't that what it's all about?

I don't really apologise for my statement though because I still believe pulling in the likes of Ghandi is pushing it when it comes to this particular topic. It might matter a lot to all of us but in the greater scheme of things, not so much.

I also wasn't thinking of Elysion Gear when I mentioned Witch-hunts, I assumed that was sarcasm (well unless she's out back building a pyre right now) but some of the people on the recast forum I think mentioned that they expected a witch hunt or something similar... I thought it was obvious but I hope that puts my comment in context.

 

-_- Agreed.

And yes, most individuals here are sane (and quite nice!) and I doubt they'd ever do anything violent to another person yet both sides have been getting hate mail (Horrible hate mail...) and that's just ridiculous. Not to mention that certain posts in here just plain scare me. I own 4 legit direct-from-company dolls, 1 legit secondhand doll, and 1 legit head, yet in some people's eyes because I have an account on this other forum (under my username, I have nothing to hide) I should be hunted off of here, never sold to or harassed until I form an opinion equal to theirs?

When a newb has questions about something I've experienced I try to help
When someone I know is doing a fundraiser I try to help
When someone has a question I try to offer a suggestion
When people have asked me about companies or molds I own I try to take pictures or describe them.
I obey the TOS
and I'm not the only one who does that kind of stuff here, who is also there.

Yet all this hate spews forth and it makes me wonder why do I even try to help? The 1% of the populace: the angry violent ones, are just ruining it for me here. This debate is doing way more harm than it does good. If someone want to constructively come up with suggestions and arguments, that's great (and quite a few people have), but nothing has been said or done here that has accomplished anything constructive. It's just leftovers at this point. Put it in Tupperware and shove it in the fridge before it stinks up the whole forum.

 

*Rageface* Heretic!

*lol* I'm just kidding,

You have every right to speak in a debate thread thought not very many people would agree with it, it's your opinion.


Instead, how could I try to convince you( and others) to wait for a second-hand doll to pop up on the marketplace?
Surely if you wait long enough and keep your eye out for him/her, the reward is an immerse satisfaction on finally bringing your dream-doll home.

I have had two very hard to find grail-dolls on my wish list that I waited literally years for, and as only heads. Which I don't regret. I don't regret the amount I paid for both of them. Because the fact that I achieved my goal in bringing them home is worth more then money can buy.

I am well aware that recasts are a temptation, and have no doubt that nearly everyone had been tempted by the idea at least once in their time in this hobby.
It all depends on a person's personal integrity, we know it wrong, and we will be punished for it, either by being completely ostracized from our fellow collectors or by some other means.

Please don't fall into that temptation.

(This is just not for XvPandavX but for all others who might be tempted as well.)

(( Ok, Now I really am starting to sound like a religious nutcase...))