Recasts and Bootlegging

Vonbonbon: As far as I know, it was only me and I intended it only in the context I have stated. i don't think anyone here could be compared to any of those people but it would be nice for all of us to aspire.

 

WELL, IF YOU TAKE THOSE THREE LINES OUT OF CONTEXT-- *shot*

Nah, you just sound like a concerned citizen. XD

Kymera: I suppose, hypothetically, if a company is never, ever, ever going to rerelase a sculpt (for whatever reason), and gives permission to a third party to recast their sculpt, then it's okay because it takes the illegality of the act out of the equation. The recast would then be sanctioned by the company itself. I think someone brought this hypothetical situation up a few pages back too, as an example of "when it is okay to recast."

I can't see any other arguments that will work in favor of recasts, though. I can see how buying some recasts will have a lesser degree of "evil" than other recasts (IE, buying a super limited Volks doll vs. buying a basic Luts doll), but that's about it. Yes, both are still illegal, but I'll definitely rage less at the person who bought the Volks limited than the person who bought the Luts basic.

As far as doing things to prevent/discourage recasts...I think we're already doing a pretty good job. It is very hard for companies to mark their dolls in a foolproof way so the real dolls stand out from the fakes, but they're doing their best. As a community, we're standing very, very firm against recasts, and many people are having second thoughts of buying a recast because of us. I know it doesn't fully solve the issue, nor does it prevent recasts from happening, but I don't think we're at a point where we need to panic over it, and if we remain firmly against recasts (which we undoubtedly will), then I don't believe we'll ever reach the point where the secondhand market will be saturated by recasts.

I will admit to being somewhat worried about the Castaways forums, though. I can't say I like how some threads actively make it easier for people to buy recasts, and thus make it easier for people to give into temptation. Especially for basic, readily available sculpts. Duskkodesh, what's your take on this? Since you're a member of both DoA and the Castaways forums, I'd like to hear your opinion. :>

 

I find bringing up the names of Gandhi and MLK and even Lennon very offensive in the context of the current debate to justify leniency towards crime under the guise of tolerance. It is as much a misrepresentation as Ghandi is a misspelling.

 

Ha ha ha, I like your peaceful protest against my lousy spelling Katyok

 

vonbonbon - it's wasn't you, it was the travesty of the poster who dragged them into this debate in the first place.

 

Poor old Mohandas, bless him

 

This is licensing another company to produce your product and is perfectly legal, this isn't at all in the same universe as recasting. For example, Ariadoll is retiring as a company on the 31st of this month, but Switch have bought the rights to Ariadoll's sculpts and will start selling them once Ariadoll closes shop. Switch have the relevant permissions in place to do this. They will not be selling Ariadoll recasts, they'll be selling their own castings made from Aria moulds. Original dolls, not recasts.

Recasting is taking a doll, making a mould of it and making new casts from those moulds to sell. Being licensed to make and sell a product means you have the original moulds to work from, and won't be making recasts.

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At this point, I think that everything that could be said regarding this issue, has been said. I encourage newcomers to the thread to read as far back as they would like to (or dare to ) before contributing.

The debate is becoming circular rather than progressive.

 

I have to admit... You've made me change my mind when you put it that way.

If someone was to say "I feel really bad about buying the recast and I've replaced it with the genuine doll" then I would be pretty happy with them, I certainly wouldn't wish them to be ostracised.

 

*eyes the fire-pit in the backyard,* Nope, "Burning heretics" wasn't on my rental agreement.

(I'm sorry, this is a very funny mental image for me. Bwahhaahaa!)

But we have accomplished something, we made our thoughts known about we all feel about recasts and bootleggs. I am hoping that we continue to be vigilant as the situation will undoubtedly go on as more people try to find short cuts to doll ownership.

The best that we can do right is to encourage new buyers to buy dolls either directly from the companies or reputable sellers here on DoA. And as Elder members (Those who had been here for years.) could share stories of their waiting and saving for that coveted doll. Lend their experience.
The sharing of dolly stories, photos, meetups, looking out for each other, this is what makes our community strong.

Granted, there will be members who will rant and rage about hating illegal dolls (myself included.) and there will be such rants as long as recasters and their buyers still exist.
If people are going to rant about it, it would be just as effective as posting it up in a blog or livejournal.

We've expressed our thoughts on the matter, what is next? What kind of preventive measures can we take as a community to makes sure that this recasting stops?

Spreading of information I'd say, I like what Iplehouse is doing by starting a campaign.

I am trying my best.

 

First off, I think behavior like you mentioned is uncalled for, and I'm sure others think the same. Just because you are a part of another doll forum does not make you any less honest, and any less of a contributing member of this community.

And, yes, that 1% can ruin the experience here. They are the loudest voices, the ones that stick in one's mind, the ones that paint us all in a wrong light and make us lose member and potential members alike.

I honestly hope the mods lock this thread. Keep it here, let it be a testament of what this community stands for... but even though this thread has only been up for a little over a week, more than enough has been said. This is no longer a debate, it's fruitless arguing over things that have been discussed and rehashed over, and over, and over again. It's doing nothing but breeding problems and creating fear: fear of the Marketplace, and fear of the community. This needs to end.

 

I must admit, that I'm not seeing this thread the same way you are. I do see people who are very upset about the situation, but that's understandable -- in the context of this hobby, it is upsetting. People aren't actually advocating harassment, threats, physical harm, destruction of property, etc etc etc. The only thing anybody is really advocating is 1) making sure people are aware of the issue, and 2) keeping recasters and their supporters out of the larger abjd community. Why? It's the only real consequence there can be. Considering recast buyers seem to be concerned about community reaction, shows that this does have a point. Actually, this thread, though intense at times, accomplishes both objects 1 & 2.

I may be misunderstanding where you are coming from, but to me it feels like you are over intellectualizing this topic in a way that it would make it impossible to do anything or have a strong negative opinion as you seem to be equating this with too much anger/hate/intolerance/etc. I think the points people are trying to make are getting lost because of that. However, anger when used constructively, can be fuel for positive action, and tolerance of harmful behavior can easily be mistaken for acceptance by the perpetrators. Does this make sense?

Eventually this thread will burn itself out as all very active debate threads do. However, by countering arguments and discussing the issue, it is keeping it up here so others know about what's going on. Several people stated they weren't aware of how much a problem recasts had become until they found this thread. Personally, though, I don't see this thread staying this active for too very much longer unless something new happens.

 

This. I'm co-hosting a BJD panel on Sunday, and I would like to cover this issue in the tone of "Hey, noob, be careful," (as opposed to "OMG, you're horrible if you even think it") because the most I've got out of this thread is that a) bootlegs are now scarily accurate, if not cast from the same molds as legit dolls, and b) that things that should prove a doll's legitimacy, like COA and head-plates, are worth only about as much as the paper they're stamped on, because they can also be easily faked.

What do I tell them to look for to avoid being scammed? I don't want to make them too scared to buy second-hand.

 

I think that buying their dolls on a legitimate forum, one that doesn't tolerate recasts is essential. Ebay, craigslist, forums that tolerate art theft, not so much.

That and provenance. While a COA or box doesn't automatically confer legitimacy, knowing who the original owner was (by tracing back through feedback threads or box openings) in addition to these things builds a compelling case that a doll is real. So do things like customs paper work, etc. If those things do not exist, I am much more likely to trust a person with 20 pages of sterling feedback, than someone with 1 or 2 pages (like me, for instance-- but I save all my customs forms, original shippers, etc.!)

 

That's tough, because there are so many splits that many dolls don't have the original clothes, wigs, boxes etc. However, if an LE did come with some of it's original gear that would be a good sign. Always check feedback -- it's never a 100% guarantee, but at least it gives some basis to go on. You could ask if the seller had any of the shipping paperwork, though that would undoubtedly be a long shot. If the seller is the first owner, you could ask if they could provide a screen shot of the order info that stays in your account with the company on-line. Ask for a pic that proves the doll is in the owner's possession so that people can't get away with using someone elses' photo. I don't know how feasible some of the above is to be honest -- I would have to think about it some more. Oh, also about feedback -- you might be able to figure out an older doll's provenance if the person that the seller got them from left the seller feedback. Same with new dolls purchased through group orders. It doesn't hurt to be aware of what companies/sculpts tend to be bootlegged the most as that might allow a potential buyer to either relax a little or be more on the alert if need be. Also, I am personally a lot more comfortable buying dolls here where there is a very anti-recast attitude and policy -- doesn't mean that nothing bad can ever happen, but I think there's better chances of not having this problem here than on ebay or a forum that is lax on the recasting issue.

I know for myself, that I have a lot of older dolls that don't have a lot of stuff that can prove anything. I have certificates for the ones that came with them, but some didn't, and for some dolls I am the second or third owner. I could easily prove ownership of my two Leeke girls since I can get a copy of my order info from my Leeke account and have stuff that came with them, and my very first doll is an LE whose outfit I have as well. But some of the others would be very difficult. As awareness of the recast issue grows, I would think that people will be better about making sure they keep items to use as proof (I know that I will), and it's more the older dolls that are going to be difficult to know for sure.

ETA: This might sound harsh, but if someone is tootling around doll forums and reading posts that make them uncomfortable with that person, they can make a do-not-buy-from list. I don't mean post this up and publicly accuse people of things, but just as something to keep for themselves. I know that overtime I will remember what was said, but I don't always remember by whom. Putting together a seller's posts with their feedback and other information could be helpful in getting a sense if someone is trustworthy or not.

 

Freshness lock. There's so much hyperbole and circular arguing here that I think we're all getting dizzy!

If anyone has a fresh take on the topic, please feel free to start a new thread. Thanks everyone for your participation.