Recasts and Bootlegging

The strangest thing TO ME in all of this is why would anyone want to own a recast or a knock-off or a bootlegged product?!?!?! Maybe THAT is the elitist in me....I don't want a lesser quality product of any kind. Food items, soda, handbags, jewelry, jacket, boots, tattoos, artwork, cars and yes dolls....I know what I like and I work hard and save hard to buy the original. Art theft notwithstanding - and that IS A HUGE CONVERSATION - my disgust factor is also tied to the idea that a person would be happy with a rip-off. Ugh.

You fall in love with something radically cool? Save your money and buy the original.

 

Thank you. This is what I was trying to say, but put much more eloquently then I could (I am not known for my eloquence). Not to mention that harassment and threats are in many places illegal and therefore some people are fighting an illegal activity with another illegal activity. The hypocrisy astounds me.

 

If they're dishonest enough to cheat a company and give money to thieves and cowardly enough to stay anonymous and lie about where their dolls are from on DoA and to their friends, of course I am going to think they are unscrupulous enough to sell their dolls as an original when they no longer want it.

They've already shown they are willing to rip off the doll companies, who are often doll collectors and hobbyists.

It is entirely the bootleg purchaser's fault. They are that jerky kid who ruined recess and got the whole classroom punished because all they care about is their own instant gratification.

 

I have to disagree. I may think what they are doing isn't exactly right, but I'm not ready to just boo and hiss them and I'm sure as heck not going to stop buying second-hand.

I don't believe that Recast and bootleg owners are malicious in their interaction with the community. You may argue that buying bootlegs and recasts is a malicious act, but obviously not everyone in the community agrees. They may "rip off companies", but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't assume that everything coming from them is a lie.


I highly doubt that it's fair to villianize them to the extent that we assume they just want to pass off their "fake dolls" as real ones and laugh maniacally over ripping a fellow collector off.

I'm not saying that they should be welcomed in with open arms or that everyone has to like their point of view. I'm saying to not let the fear of these "big bad recast collectors" ruin the economy of the second-hand market.

People can (and often do) have a morality that permits one type of "Bad Thing" yet does not allow another, possibly similar, "Bad Thing".

The recast community is becoming vocal, no matter how the rest of the doll community feels about that. Why would they become honest about their interest in recasts and bootlegs, but lie about not wanting to dupe collectors who aren't cool with recasts?

Regardless of the rationality, many are afraid that by identifying themselves, they'll be banned from DoA and ostracized. It appears as though that's why many are continuing to hide their identities. I've also observed that a lot of these owners lie because they just want to fit in or are ashamed in some fashion.

How about we not let a few people in this hobby who are ok with recasts tank the second-hand market? Also, I still maintain that people panicking will do more harm than the recast buyers. Argue it however you want, but it's our reaction to to the recast buyers that causes it. Obviously this stuff was going on before the "outing" of the recast community, and our second-hand market was fine. The only thing that could affect it now is how we react to this.

 

Your live-and-let-live philosophy is fine for you, I suppose - but please elaborate how on earth a buyer is supposed to have faith in a secondary market in which all manner of collectors are allowed to sell? How can the honest buyer/trader ensure that she's not buying a recast doll????

 

Only they are not being honest about their bootlegs - they are outright lying about them each time they post one here on DoA or flickr. Posting anon on tumblr or on recast friendly forums doesn't strike me as being honest or being out and proud. And the reason they do this is because they know it's not allowed or tolerated here, and for good reason. Zero tolerance of bootlegs is the only way to protect our secondhand market, along with buyers doing their best to fully research each purchase. Buyers of recasts have made their beds and are trying to not lie in them or suffer the consequences. If someone is going to lie about a doll's origin once, they're going to lie about that doll's origin again.

There shouldn't be quotes around fake dolls, btw. Recasts are fakes. There is no grey area here.

I'm with Zagzagael in that I honestly don't understand why someone would want to own one. You love Williams? You buy a bootleg Williams? Congratulations, you just wasted your money because you still don't own Williams. You own a crappy copy.

 

THIS. So hard.

 

Adding to the "THIS." crowd.
It's just not the same. If you want to own a real Picasso you would also not be happy with the crappy print from the supermarket for five bucks, wouldn't you?
And if you honor a doll and the company who made it so, so, SOOO much...you should honor their wish to not buy bootlegged dolls.

 

Why is it automatically assumed that these people will resell? Not everyone in this hobby has a desire, feel the need, of feels entitles to resale their dolls.

Maybe, and just maybe, these people buy these dolls knowing that there's going to be no resale on them. Just because it's part of *this* hobby doesn't mean it's part of the Recast Collector's hobby.

Maybe that's why I can deal with the recast and bootleg collectors without all the hate and venom (not saying you specifically are reacting with hate and venom, but there is a lot being spread around in this thread). I really don't feel that they are in the same hobby I'm in, and as such I'm confident that the MP or any other secondary market will be just fine.

It doesn't matter that the recasts can look the same, they aren't the same, and the recast community knows that. Also, considering how many of them are afraid of the backlash of being "outed" there's no way they'd risk the backlash by selling a recast on here or any other place that forbids it. If they care enough to fret over being found out, then why would they risk themselves further by selling a recast as an original?

 

If someone posts anon comments on tumblr boasting about how they post their recasts on DoA and even manage to trick people into thinking the doll is the real thing at meets, it really is not such a stretch to think that person could sell the doll as the real thing.

You are using quite a lot of paranoid, hysterical language here. I get the feeling you're trying to wind people up and make this into a bigger drama than it should be.

 

Of course each individual is responsible for their own actions only and one recast owner is not the other recast owner, but a recast owner more or less admitted in her DoA profile she owned one and then tried to sell her recast at a local BJD forum with a vague description, saying that the doll was of a nameless/generic Chinese brand. When pressed for information she was beating about the bush and when someone identified the doll as a recast of a Volks head on a recast Bobobie body, she still didn't want to outright admit it was a recast and pretended it was totally okay for her to sell it. Mind you that there are a lot of new doll owners on that forum who at that time were very unfamiliar with recasts and could have been interested in what looked like a good deal (the doll was more expensive than an original Bobobie doll, so it was an overpriced recast too).
I've seen one recast owner being dishonest and trying to pass off her recast as an acceptable doll. This does not mean all recast owners are dishonest, but it doesn't make any of them look good.

 

I was actually going to leave this alone and just wait and see what others had to say for a while, and then this post popped up and...yeah.

I'm not even going to seriously comment on the concept that none of those recast buyers have sold a bootleg as the real thing because it's laughable to imagine that they're all still with their original owners and that none of them have seen the way to a quick buck and taken it.

I do, however, take exception to this:

Well I dunno about anyone else, but I'm entirely open to suggestions on how we CAN react to this without it causing a knock on effect to the secondary market. If you've got a solution on how I can 100% guarantee that the second hand doll I'm about to buy is genuine, then I'm all ears frankly because that would solve this issue once and for all, so let's hear it and be done with this mess.

 

The thing is, the other forum has an MP too and I personally think that's a good thing. Having a forum where it's okay to have these dolls and talk about them is a good thing. I would think that if the forum survives long enough for someone who wants to sell their recast to sell it, they will sell it over there. By not allowing people who have recasts to sell their dolls as recasts it leaves people in a lurch. I'm by NO MEANS saying we should allow it, but I think that having a legitimate place to sell recasts as recasts will keep people safer.

I feel the same way about the other forum. I don't think DOA should allow recasts, but I think that having a place you can openly talk about them will protect everyone in the long run. And, I think that those who do have recasts should have a place they can post their dolls without lying about it. It's a good thing. If they have somewhere to post the dolls that they've put their time into they will be less likely to post them as legitimate dolls here.

I've spent a lot of time on that forum, the general consensus is not that they are buying recasts, but they there are curious about recasts. The entire forum seems to be afraid that DOA will start a witch-hunt and out their members. Those that have considered buying want dolls to practice their craft on or modify without fear of ruining a very expensive doll. They aren't trying to trick anybody into buying recasts, they're just trying to enjoy their dolls like everyone else.

Also, I think that those saying bootlegging is horrible and completely wrong forget how much of this goes on in our daily lives. Even among the doll community when a good idea comes along how long does it take for other companies to follow suit with similar dolls? Volks is the first company to make our modern bjds, but other companies have come along. Soom MDs weren't the first to do fantasy parts, Volks had them first, does that mean that Soom is wrong? I know that this isn't exactly the same as a straight recast, but I hope you guys can see how it's a bit similar. I buy a lot of generic stuff, food, clothes, technology, does that make me a criminal? I don't like the idea of recasts and I would never buy one myself, but I do think that it is far less black and white than we'd like it to be.

(I hope this makes sense, there was a lot that I wanted to say and I feel that I've jumped around a lot)

 

But this does not mind that in other countries they are not recast....you can find fake dolls everywhere...maybe in other countries people don´t say it or don´t show it.....maybe spanish people show their recast more often but this doesn´t mean that in USA, France, Germany, Japan, etc... are not fake dolls.

Maybe is everyone will show their fake dolls they will be not problems and all recast dolls will be controled. And as other user said why is it automatically assumed that these people will resell their recast? Maybe they use that dolls for making customizations or practicing make-up. Not everyone resale their dolls.

As i said before you can have troubles everywhere not only because a person is from one country or another.

EDIT: delicate disaster i am completely agree with you

 

Mitigation. They want to make the offense seem lesser, by smokescreening it with faux openness. "Look how open & honest I am, admitting that I happily commit [Illegal Activity #1]-- therefore, surely I would never lie to you about anything else, right? You can trust me!"

It's a favored tactic of politicians, cheating spouses, etc. And it's not just used to avoid persecution by others; it's also used to soothe one's own nagging conscience, by convincing oneself that this activity is OK.

Sure. Kids lie when they fear repercussion, and they continue to lie when they're caught out; it's a panic reflex. I remember being 5 and saying "I didn't do it" to some accusation of a horrible deed with the garden hose, whilst hiding the garden hose behind my back.

If they feel shame, this is a natural response to wrongdoing; it's called "conscience". If they ignore it, they're choosing to. You don't get to complain that people are picking on you if you've actually done wrong. Frankly, their personal social-insecurity & persecution issues are none of my concern. I won't develop sudden sympathy for a collector of bootlegs, simply because they try to frame it in terms of being a victim of peer pressure.

(A) The reactions of the legit community didn't create the problem-- recast buyers & sellers did.
(B) And now that more people are aware of it, now it has to be dealt with. You cannot put toothpaste back into a tube.

Wow. There is a whole lotta naivete going on here.

 

There is no way to guarantee unless you can get and crosscheck receipts and identities of sellers.

There never has been. The only difference now is that people aren't covering their eyes and eyes to recasts. And doll that isn't purchased directly from the company or someone who is a dealer on behalf of the company is possibly a recast. Such a possibility has always been possible, and simply realizing that it is only changes your perception. In reality and selling or trading of recasts would have been happening already.

 

You can't copyright an idea. You can only copyright an execution of an idea. I can't legally sell T-shirts with Mickey Mouse on it without permission from Disney, but I can design my own cartoon mouse (that is original enough and not a blatant copy) and sell T-shirts with my own cartoon mouse on it and no one has any right to reproduce my cartoon mouse but me. So it's not that similar.

 

I'm sorry - this is ridiculously wrong-footed. Recasting is STEALING. There is nothing the same about recasting or making a "knock-off" product and being inspired by similar items. NOTHING. Recasting is taking someone else's work and COPYING it.

 

If I want a Williams, I'm going to buy a Volks Williams. However, if someone has their crazy set on dyeing a Williams purple, I'd honestly rather they go to Doll-Mart and get the Chinese knock-off. Ditto with sanding off various bits, bedazzling and sharpie makeovers.

I think if these things have a place, it's as the placebo to keep the 'creative' types from making a giant mess of a really nice doll. *shrug*