Recasts and Bootlegging

Ok, let's just say that it is all a perception filter that suddenly broke and now we can all see the hideous mess we have before us. Now what? How does anyone trust anything they see on the MP's now knowing what they know about the quality of the recasts available? What do the people who have no desire to own something knocked off do to ensure they don't get a recast when buying second hand?

No one can argue that the problem doesn't exist or that it hasn't always been a nasty stain hiding in the back of the cupboard, the issue is that now it's all so out in the open or at least, as out in the open as it can be when most of it's done under anon posts, and with that, apparently a great deal more prevelant, how does the community deal with it so that major repercussions to the secondary market aren't felt?

 

I'm not trying to make anything into a bigger drama, just trying to illustrate what people have been portraying the recast buyers as. One of the posts in this thread essentially calls recast buys animals. Another straight up calls these people assholes.

Since when is this an acceptable way to talk about anyone? The recast community are still composed of people, and if such words are being used and seen as acceptable, then I don't think what you quoted from me is paranoid or trying to cause drama. It seems pretty spot on to me, considering the strong reactions from previous posters.

I think we can make sure that the market isn't affected by becoming better informed. I agree with chienism that we use the resources that are coming out to learn about and learn to identify recasts. Because I want to know how I can spot a recast, I'm lurking at the new forum that was created which means I personally will be on the lookout for the recasts posted there and if one pops up here you can bet that I'm going to let the Mods know. I'm confident that I'm not the only one who will be on the lookout. That can go a long way to help.

There's also supposed to be a second-hand marketplace for those who are selling recasts. I'm not about to take part in it, but I'm optimistic that them having their own market place will also cut down on the temptation to sell here or other places, and it seems as though the admin of that community is wanting the Recast Community to police their own.

Maybe I'm just too easy going, but I have faith that people who do one thing that we don't like are hopeless, or are going to rip everyone else off.

 

Try not to purchase second hand.

If you do purchase second hand, ask for receipt information. Ask for the order number with the company. Ask for the certificates, which should have unique order numbers you can crosscheck.

 

I think it's very naive to think that people who buy recasts somehow don't behave like everyone else who buys a doll. How often have people here at DoA disliked a doll when it arrived, and how often have peoples tastes evolved over time? How often have people decided to thin out their collections because they're running out of space? And how often have people had emergencies come up for which they need money, including the likes of vet bills, etc? All of these scenarios lead in many cases to people selling or trading dolls. Even with a separate recast market, once a recast is out of the original owner's hands, there's no saying whether the next owner will not sell it on as the real thing. There's just no avoiding these painful facts. Other people have the right to be concerned.

 

I am someone who is a frequent buyer and seller in our Marketplace. While I think most thoughts about bootleg dolls are standard - I echo that recasts are a form of art thievery, and that they should not be tolerated - and do not have to be echoed by me when other users have stated so wellthe problems I have with recasts, nothing concerns me more about them then the idea that I could be victim of some bootleg resale, and in the case of me selling that doll on again, unknowingly victimizing others.

There IS no absolute golden way to tell who is an 'honest' bootlegger who would never sell on recasts for profit. Sometimes a recast is so well done -- such as those Soom recasts, who even use Soom resin! - that there's no definite way to tell a recast from an original. I do not consider such objects good quality products. They are simply better-than-average frauds. And they are fraudulent products that in the end, effect my bottom line, or someone else's. Be it the company's, a secondhand owner's, etc. the only person who benefits from a recast is the company who recast the doll and the knowing bootleg buyer. And I'm sorry, but if that doesn't fit the definition of crime, then send me to law school.

I'm as open as Lulu is to finding a 'guaranteed' Rule of knock-off resale, but frankly, it's an unrealistic goal. If certificates and head plates often cannot be enough for buyer confidence in this advanced world of forgery - who says you can't buy Williams' papers from the market? What about a head plate? - then I don't know what is. All I can do as a buyer (and seller) is educate myself on where they are coming from and how they are made to minimize the event of being victimized by a false sale. It's like any other firm of FRAUD prevention. (That may include approaching a suspicious doll in the way chienism wrote, but keep in mind it also may not be helpful as it is not inconceivable, nor unproven, that a suspected bootlegger would lie about thier doll's origins, regardless if they'd never sell it onwards.

My two cents from a Market perspective.

 

Which is fine, but what about the backdoor dolls that are run up by the same casters that do the real thing? There's no difference in them whatsoever, they come from the same moulds, have the same paperwork, same BOXES even, the only difference is the total LACK of your money that goes to the original artists. You can't tell them apart and I'm unconvinced that anyone can tell the better end of the recasts that aren't backdoor sales apart in photo's either. All of the usual things like CoA's and plates are being faked right along with the dolls.

I'm unconvinced a recast only MP would help either, because anyone buying on it knows the value of the thing and therefore the most lucrative reason for reselling your knock off LE Soom Monthly is suddenly gone isn't it. Human nature is not pretty, we're a greedy breed.

And here we have the problem, because not buying second hand impacts the secondary market rather hard, especially when not everyone HAS any of that when they got the doll second hand too. I know I don't have the certificates for a lot of my genuine dolls because they never came with one, so that's not a solution that works.

 

Also, this is a great rule, but damning ito most people who miss out on an exclusive or limited doll, such as dolls won by lottery or through direct order periods. There is also scenario that even honest individuals who do not keep shipping papers - and honestly, a secondary owner has the shipping information of the primary owner and sells it along to the tertiary owner as a vote of confidence, how secure or fair is that for a primary owner whose address and full name moves onto a stranger?- are going to doubt cast on them because they are missing documents. The doubt is a real and understandable one, but at the end of the day, a fallback that honest buyers and sellers should not have to pay for.

Trying not to buy secondhand just doesn't work. There are just so many situations in which buying secondhand becomes necessary for a collector. And I do not mean to criticize your advice, because in essence it is very good, but there are still problems that arise from it. Especially in the case of buying from a secondary or tertiary owner who has an honest product.

 

I must admit that I was quite shocked when the whole Recast/Bootleg drama developed in the past few weeks. Sure, I knew that recasts exist and that there have been instances when an unsuspecting collector bought a doll off Ebay just to find out that it is a copy, but I didn't realize that there is evidently quite a large group of people who support, encourage and buy recast dolls. It's disappointing to learn.

I am in complete agreement on DoA's official stance on recasts. As someone already mentioned earlier, the secondary market will suffer due to an increasing lack of trust. If there are so many people out there buying recasts, then it stands to reason that some of them will eventually end up on the Marketplace here. Especially now, it will be extremely important to keep all documentation from doll purchases (EMS slips, emails, receipts, etc.), as well as photographing box openings, in order to pass on this information to a buyer, should you ever decide to sell a doll. Thankfully, I've done this for all my dolls already, and I will certainly continue to do so.

Finally, I don't quite understand why the people, who consider owning bootlegs and recasts to be perfectly in line with their own ethics and morality, choose to hide and remain anonymous? If you believe that you are not cheating and stealing, then why not show yourself? If you truly believe that you are doing the right thing and others are wrong, then take a stand for what you believe in. However, all the anonymous glorification and support for recasts tells me that folks know what they are doing is unethical, but do it anyway, because they can.

 

It's not up to you to police property of another person no matter what they do with it. Saying that an individual who wishes to customize a limited doll should only buy knock-offs so that the secondhand market pool isn't effected by them is not an answer to the problem of bootleg. If I want to make a purple Williams, that's my business, and I'd like to do it honestly. I'm not going to perpetuate crime just because someone poo-poos my fabulous and unique idea of a purple Williams.

Edit: The reason why this makes me a little hot under the collar is because this is subversively redirecting blame in this context for recasts, and also justifying recasts in the guise of one person having a hate-on for customized limited dolls that they feel reduce secondary market prices. The people who cause bootleg products are bootleg companies. The people who buy them are bootleg buyers. I don't see how customizes are or have to be subject to this, as that is a separate argument and bias altogether.

 

On this point, I don't think that most people in this hobby really sell any type of doll for a profit, and from what I see from comments on that other forum, neither are those people.

Will there be people who lie and try to pass off their knock off as the real thing? Yes... but that happened before the recast tumblr or that community even formed.

The point I initially attempted to make was that it seems as though the danger of buying a knock off or bootleg is the same as it was before. The only change are that people who own recasts but aren't engaging in selling it to unknowing collectors are being more vocal about owning recasts.

I'm not saying we have to accept the recast community, just that we shouldn't let it affect us. These recast and bootleg owners have had these dolls for a while it seems, and the BJD Community didn't seem flooded with knock-offs and bootlegs before.

Now that we have admissions that people own recasts and bootlegs, why is there the sudden fear that the second-hand market will be killed by those of the recast community? I never expected the MP on here or any other second-hand market to be completely risk free, but I don't think a small minority talking about having recasts and bootlegs is going to up that risk any.

 

I don't know. Keeping in mind that these buyers already started out by doing something they know is wrong, I don't find it entirely too far fetched to believe that the recast/bootleg doll may at some point end up on the MP. Why is it so hard to believe that someone who'd rather save a few bucks to buy a farce won't try to make a few bucks more by selling it as if it were legit? Maybe my faith in people is pretty shot. But I've been following the Tumblr debate over the last few weeks and it makes me sick to see the boasting of recast doll owners spew absurdities all over those blogs. As someone already pointed out, if the only way they can boast is by posting anonymously, then where's the honor in that?

I must say that ever since this whole thing exploded, I eye the MP a little differently. I haven't outright ruled out purchasing second hand, but I'm incredibly wary about it and I shouldn't be. But it comes down to the fact that I do not trust someone to be completely honest about their thieving purchase.

Unfortunately, you'd be surprised.

 

That's exactly how I feel about this.
Sure they fear the backslash they might receive from other owners, but honestly...it's just normal.
You do something bad, you get punished for it.
People should at least have the guts to admit what they are doing instead of whining that people don't like them.

@BunnyKimber:
A lot of people admitted on the tumblrs that without these confessions etc. they would have never found out how easily it is to get a recast, and that they will do so now.
I also know a lot of people who would jump on the recast train as soon as they find out it's so easy, cheap and often of still quite good quality to get a recast.

Now it's quite easy to get all these informations and it's clear that now more people will get recasts.
If they will sell them is a different story.

 

Go reread my post. At which point did I say 'all customizers should buy bootlegs?' I suggested that I personally felt that a bootleg might be a better use of resin than a genuine article when it comes to playing Rainbow Brite. For that matter, when it comes to policing someone's property, how are you any better in attempting to dictate what sort of property they buy? Back off the froth a little.

Whoa. I didn't say a WORD about secondary market prices, and frankly your insinuation that I'm a scalper is completely unwarranted. I don't care what a limited sells for, but I think permanently altering one (sometimes beyond recognition) is a shame. Period.

 

I think it's really selfish that people who buy bootlegs expect the rest of us genuine collectors in the to carry with us the cost of their fake dolls. They just assume that Iple, Soom and Volks etc. are going to be able to supply new dolls for them to recast becuase there's always going to be enough people to buy the orginal. But it's not enough to assume. What if we all changed our minds and decided to think that way? Becuase without the orginals there is no recasts.

It's people like that just want want and never give. They want limited rare dolls, they want cheap dolls, they want an endless stream of new exciting sculpts coming out for them to go and make copies of, and, then, they still want to be part of our community by secretly posting the recast dolls on DOA, they still want and expect the rest of us to trust them indefinatly when it comes to their transcations on top.

 

I know i would never buy a recast knowing it was such. However if the seller, does not inform me, and i can't tell.. where would that leave me?

Personally i buy a doll i want.. one that i form a connection with.. even if it is just from the picture on the second hand market. I refuse to be afraid to go the the market to buy something i personally adore. If it is a recast, or original.. more than likely i would never know. I have no plans to every sell my dolls, because they are so personal to me.. it would be like selling a ...most prized possession or child. However, if i DID resell, i would make note that i bought it second hand, and if it had no papers ect. i would be upfront that the doll does not have such.

 

I'm sorry, but any justification to buy bootleg is a poor one. I've also added onto my post why your idea of customizers buying bootleg to play 'Rainbow Brite' does not and should not become a part of this argument. If the end ideas are, 'bootlegs are bad' and 'customizers can do what they want with dolls', then there is hardly reason to marry the two concepts. A customizer who wanted to make Purple Williams is still going to be under fire for buying a recast. I don't see why they should have to come under fire just to 'save the original product from being tainted'.

 

Being educated is really important -- I agree with you whole heartedly. However, it's not a magic bullet either. We buy dolls over the internet off of pictures. We can't handle them until we've spent the money and they've arrived on our doorstep. We also have lots of new people, and it takes time to become adaquetly familiar with the sculpts that are out there. Heck, I can't keep up with all the sculpts that are out there, and I've been in the hobby for years. Some recasts are so badly done that you can easily tell from pictures, but others aren't. Some of the recasters out there have gotten markedly better which makes things that much scarier.

Some people won't rip you off BUT some people will. Plus, even if people don't intend for the dolls to end up in the regular marketplace, if a doll changes hands enough the provenance can get confused. The more recasts that are out there, the greater the chances of them ending up in places like this. The more people buying recasts from the bootleggers themselves only increase the recasters' profits and encourage them to continue on. The more recasts that are being bought and sold the more the behavior appears normal and ok, when it is most certainly not ok.

I can understand if a few people accidentally ended up with recast dolls that they might want to share them with each other. But if that is the case, they should simply own up to what happened. If there's that much of a community for owners of recasts, then it's pretty clear people are knowingly buying them, and that's not good. Being tolerant of people knowingly buying recasts only sends the message that buying recasts isn't a big deal when it is. Remember, recasting and buying bootlegs are actually illegal activities.

 

Personally, I would LOVE to have a comprehensive reference database of
1) which sculpts are confirmed to be available as recasts,
2) what resin colours they are made in,
3) identifying marks that would indicate a bootleg, AND
4) side-by-side comparison of the bootleg and the real thing.

Nothing sucks more than forking out the cash for an awesome toy, only to discover it's a bootleg. I've had this problem with Nendroids and blind-box anime figures, mostly... it's very difficult to identify the real thing from a fake in the package (or photos!) sometimes. And with Nendroids, the bootleg ones fall apart so it's a big waste of cash. :/

...I've got one second-hand doll from the MP here that I'm 70% sure is an undisclosed bootleg, but there aren't enough resources available for me to verify. If I bought a doll that turned out to be a bootleg, and was advertised as the real thing, I'd be really pissed off; I'd be out a LOT of money that I wouldn't be able to recoup, and that I could have spent on the real thing.

All other hobbies have visual guides to identifying bootlegs and where they show up most often, so I don't see why it's so taboo to openly discuss the topic on DoA or post photos of bootlegs for education.

In a hobby where we're dropping several hundred dollars on a toy; I'd like to have resources available to me so that I don't get financially screwed in another second-hand purchase. Keeping it all hush-hush creates ignorance, and ignorance leads to bootleg dolls being sold second-hand or third-hand to unsuspecting buyers for MUCH more than they're worth.

 

While I agree with you that these are good and valid things, perhaps DoA has other reasons for keeping things less talked about here. However, if there was an offsite educational page creating awareness about bootlegs and how to avoid them, I'm sure DoA would have no problem linking to and directing people there.

As far as bootlegs and recasts go, I dislike them. I do not care what you do with a doll once you own it, but I do think it's dishonest to resell copies of it for a profit. So many other people here have said it better than I could have.

The other ways to keep bootlegs and copies from gaining a larger foothold are to educate new and unfamiliar doll owners, keep vigilant for any copies in the MP, and make it clear how the community frowns upon unethical business behavior, and the social and/or legal consequences that can arise.