Recasts and Bootlegging

I have faith for this as well, but my faith won't stop people from trying to scam others.

I'm behind this exactly.

 

This would be an amazing resource!!! Someone with the wherewithal to put this together on a site would be doing collectors and companies a huge favour!!!

 

I can't help but to agree that a comprehensive resource comparing bootlegs to the real deal would be amazing. I think the problem I have in general with recasts now being so openly discussed is that it created an unnecessary temptation I had managed to avoid this whole time in the hobby. Where to buy them and how to buy them, I almost wish that had stayed hidden. And I know that sounds ridiculously ignorant but, for me, that is the truth. I wasn't daft enough to honestly believe recasts never happened and people never bought them and passed them off as legit. I even knew one place to get them because I found some links while looking for doll clothes and I KNEW those had to be recasts. But, I can say that, for myself, I was better off not knowing HOW to get them. Especially since I am only human and, sometimes, there's that part that nags at me about that one doll that was limited and isn't available secondhand. I can't help but be frustrated about the whole thing.

Luckily, I keep in mind my own morals. I don't have the energy to be the morality police for all but I can police myself. Recasts are just wrong. I know people try to justify them just like we all try to justify ANYTHING bad we can do, but wrong is wrong. I am not without my own sins, so I won't go around throwing stones. But I want to proud of my collection and share my collection and I don't want people to lose trust in me over anything because that will reflect on everything I do in this hobby, even if it's something that has nothing to do with recasts. And that would just break my heart.

So, while I agree that not talking about recasts is not actually a good idea, I really do despise the info on how to get them. I figure if people want recasts bad enough, they should find that particular info on their own. But I would absolutely love a place where we can just get comparison info so that we, as consumers, can keep an eye out on what we're buying and not assume anything and everything is a bootleg. Maybe that is one way to keep the secondhand market thriving.

 

Ahh. See, the way you presented it was "it's okay if they decide to buy/make bootlegs. It's not for me, but I won't judge them on their beliefs." If we were talking about religion, such a view would be laudable, but since we're talking about illegal activity, such a view is ridiculous.

 

A bunch of people in this thread have sort of backhanded the victims of bootlegging by saying that the responsibility is entirely on them. In many cases, it's important to note that it's often a Japanese or Korean company going against a Chinese bootlegger. If the bootleggers were in the same country as the dollmakers, they would have almost certainly been shut down; however, the complexity and expense of an international copyright suit is staggering.

Additionally, most lawyers tell their clients to keep quiet during legal proceedings. There are on-going legal skirmishes between companies we know all the time, we just never find out about it. Partly because they are discreet and partly because the English market doesn't even have access to a lot of the information.

We can all make the choice to do the right thing by not supporting art theft. While it might be difficult to avoid a bootleg on the second-hand market, it's extremely easy to simply not buy directly from a known bootlegger.

The other day I read a post on a site where someone said they'd love to meet up with a DoA admin in a dark alley. 9_9 Because 1/6th dollfie are off-topic on DoA. Seriously. While I'm very anti-bullying, I have to admit that most "threats of physical harm" are completely laughable. No one is going to go after someone for having a recast, just like no one has every really had their doll smashed for being an off-brand. I doubt anyone legitimately fears for their safety for owning a recast doll. It's not acceptable, but these are just trolls.

As for erroneous comparisons... I've also seen DoA's ban on bootlegs being compared to a ban on gay marriage. The moderators are routinely called Nazis for moving threads. I hardly need point out that these are ridiculous pieces of hyperbole.

If we want to talk about ridiculous, truly facepalm-worthy justifications, let's get on to the "The poor doll, it's not it's fault that it's a bootleg! It still deserves love! Don't punish it!" nonsense floating around. Or how bout the "It's about solidarity!" mantra, as though people are standing up for human rights rather than to buy fake luxury items. Or how bout the "It's about getting the doll YOU want", with the same righteousness as though the word "doll" could be replaced with something like health care, equal pay, or food.

I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who knowingly bought recasts. It isn't because I care about the doll itself... but it would illustrate a certain moral incompatibility and a difference in views that wouldn't support a friendship.

Sometimes my friends complain about how hard it is to get clients to pay for art and design work. There seems to be this attitude that these things aren't just worth very much... and because creativity is an outpouring of the soul, we're all doing the artist some sort of favor by consuming their work. I doubt anyone would say that a businessman or a retail clerk shouldn't get paid for the hours he works, so why should an artist be any different? Sculptors spend hundreds of hours designing and refining their work... to say nothing of the pieces that they don't produce and just chalk up to practice. Sculpting dolls is a legitimate career, casting and producing dolls is a legitimate industry. By purchasing bootleg dolls you are assisting someone to steal an artist's livelihood and a company's ability to continue to employ their workers. Even if you "just love" the sculpt, you are demeaning the creator's work.

All of chienism's post is perfect, but I feel like pointing this part out in particular - with anonymous posting, there is no way to know how many people actually are dealing in recasts. It doesn't appear to be a big group, just one that is very vocal about acceptance.

One would hope that people wouldn't try to pass off a recast as the real thing, but I'm not really optimistic... nor would most people take the chance that the $1000 LE they're buying is actually a $200 knockoff. We're not talking about playline doll where the difference between the real thing and a fake is $20... An LE doll might be worth hundreds of dollars more than its bootlegged counterpart... and if the buyer gets the doll and is able to tell it's a fake in person, then what can they do? They can't resell it for what they paid, they may even have moral objections to selling it at all.

Already, the market is rather glutted... and with the recession, sales have been slow for years. This lack of trust does impact the second-hand market, which also impacts the first-hand market. If people can't sell their unwanted dolls, they often can't afford to buy new ones. That affects the doll companies as well.

Then maybe they should buy legitimate dolls like everyone else? Not trying to be snotty, but by buying a recast, you (general you) are supporting art theft and you are using your money to encourage a bootlegger to keep bootlegging.

DoA's not looking for any kind of witch hunt. However, if we become aware that people are posting their bootlegs here, they will be given a warning to stop... and if we have concerns about someone selling their recast here, they will be removed from the marketplace. The best thing for these recast buyers to do is to keep their fakes off-site.

Ah, no. There have always been recasts, but there have never been resources or buying guides to help people select the "best" bootlegger to buy first-hand. It makes buying a bootlegged doll easier, safer, and more attractive ("it's not so wrong, there's a community for it!") and there is no reason to believe that the number of bootlegs in the English-speaking community won't increase.

 

Well I also meant that I do take the activity into account. I have family who use illegal substances. Would I excommunicate them from my life for doing it? No, they are my family and I love them. Would I go buy them anything myself? No, and they've never asked me to. That's an understanding that we have. Now if someone I love hurt someone else I'd have to make a judgement call because in my view they would have broken our understanding. I also meant to point out that even though it isn't relevant to the bootleg argument, what is and is not illegal shifts from country to country and from time to time.

 

I also would like to add that I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who bought a recast without knowing it was a recast. I mean... people who make these things aren't good people to begin with, they're ripping off the company... what's to stop them from presenting their products as legit??? If it's a good enough copy, they can get away with it! If you bought a doll you thought was legit and found out it was a copy, what would you do? Myself, I wouldn't destroy the doll (as long as it wasn't made of toxic materials), but I certainly would never sell it to someone or show it off. I'd let it sit and be pretty with any other dolls I might have to remind myself to be more careful when purchasing dolls in the future.

But... on the other hand, some people may have bought recasts without knowing what they were and may resell them without knowing what they are. It's just a vicious cycle.

I agree with everyone who says that the source of the problem is the bootleggers themselves, but I don't know what can be done to stop them.


@Duskkodesh - The thing is.... bootlegs violate INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT LAWS. As in, something that doesn't vary from country to country because most countries have agreed that it's illegal and violates the rights of the creators. I don't get why it is okay with you to violate someone's rights. Just because you're not physically injuring them or taking their life? That makes no sense to me.

 

Armelia And amen to that.

I never understood why people think DoA is so strict and on a "witch hunt" as you put it. The ban and warnings about bootlegged dolls are a given. It's not like a general consumer buying a copy of a painting, it's like a museum buying a counterfeit painting, something is wrong there. It's a given that illegal activity shouldn't be condoned on such a large forum. If DoA starts letting people think that recasts are condonable, than honestly it will spread. That's just now people's mindsets works.

And really, DoA isn't any stricter than it was last year. All that has happened was that DoA got bigger and in order to keep the forum clean and easier to use for people like me and you, they're enforcing stricter guidelines for us. >.> Nothings really changed.

 

I'd like to argue one of your points here, if one of your family was doing drugs or illegal activity, you wouldn't ostracize them, that much I agree. But would you not try to get them to stop because you love them? If you love someone, you would want them always to be safe and doing the right thing... :/

(this isn't directed at you Dusk, it's general. -->) It's the same with knowing someone who's buying recasts, you can't just leave it alone. Whether you have close relations with that person or not what is wrong will always be wrong. Black is black. It can never be gray because then it's no longer black. It's gray. Apathy is the absolute worst stance a person can ever take because it shows cowardice and selfishness that you only want to protect yourself.

 

I have to say that this development is what bothers me most. The tumblr and new forum devoted to recasts are trying to paint themselves as resources both pro- and con- recasts, but in reality they are a how to guide as well as free advertisement for taobao recasters.

I think it would be useful to have more information on who is recasting, quality of dolls, etc., but I see this as an activity for a bona-fide journalist or for the companies to undertake themselves. The recast tumblr/forum is little more than propaganda at this point-- a place that is actively promoting these dolls with disregard for facts (and even putting disinformation out there). I won't deny that I have found it very interesting to see just which Soom dolls are most sought after, and I will be using this information (there is no way I will sell to anyone from China any of the limiteds that the recast crowd is asking for), but a journalist could collect and disseminate this information more clearly and more objectively than a person who clearly is an advocate for recasts.

As for the companies themselves, if I worked for Soom or Iplehouse I would be nagging my supervisors to start collecting recasts themselves (without the knowledge of the recasters, of course), and to disseminate their findings. They are the best people to share with us the flaws and differences in recasts as compared to the real thing, and it might light a fire under them either to move their manufacturing operations back onshore, or to collect the information needed for the Chinese factories to fire the people involved with back door operations.

 

It's not apathy you can voice your concerns to them but if you are talking to an intelligent adult odds are good they've already taken counter arguments to heart. and I HAVE dealt with this, my dad just died of lung cancer. i had been trying to get him to quit smoking for decades but he's an adult and I couldn't MAKE him listen to me. You can't talk people into not doing what they want to do. they've already considered the consequence and your disapproval and they're STILL doing it anyway. (as for the illegal stuff, it is prescribed in other parts of the US for pain that my family members use it to treat. So what do I say? Yes it is advised for use by doctors elsewhere *and my dad's oncologist here even though it's illegal* but because it isn't in Ohio you should learn to live with your pain or take pills that drug companies push that can be nine times more dangerous)

The same goes for bootlegs. No matter how harsh the judgement someone out there will buy them. They wouldn't exist otherwise. And sure you could try and talk people out of it but if they do it anyways you can't get rabid. Rabid doesn't convince anyone that you have their best interests at heart. Rabid doesn't tell anyone you're right. All it does is make you (general you) sound insane. Then you end up with the same person doing the same thing, just far out of your sight.

 

Whilst result is important, I've always believed that what is most important is that no matter how useless your actions are, that you keep saying things and going against whatever is "wrong", regardless of whether it will change anything or not. I do apologize for making you remember something unpleasant though, that was very unprofessional of me and I'm very sorry.

 

I did not say you were a scalper at all. I'm saying your dislike of modified limiteds is likely due to the fact that such a doll considered would take away one less 'pristine' collectors item out of a secondary market pool, which means that you condone the use of recasts in the case of customizers wanting to make unique dolls out of already unique dolls, so that the secondary market isn't impacted by customized 'real deal' dolls.

And while I understand the notion, as seeing so many modified Woosoos back in the day meant that there were going to be less modified ones tobuy later, using customization as an excuse for bootlegging is still perpetuating the problem of recasts, and frankly, that opinion is out of place in this discussion. It doesn't matter the reason to buy a recast; where some situations seem more forgivable than others, it doesn't make it right.

 

Oh no no no, it's quite all right, no offense taken. I simply wanted to illustrate that I know what you were saying. perhaps my friends and family are different but I know that if I nag someone about something they tend to go away. Very quickly. We were all blessed and cursed with this breed of stubbornness and when someone disagrees with us we tend to flee. Others have said that recast owners would simply fade back into the shadows if we bugged them and I tend to think that's true. After all they were already here before this newest debate thread opened up.

So it's a balance. Either you try to correct someone and risk driving them away or you stay with them and bite your tongue to an extent. I chose the latter, others choose the former. It's up to each person. Such is life.

 

I do think the level of paranoia about recast dolls being resold to unsuspecting buyers is higher than the actual risk. Especially if you take reasonable precautions when buying. Almost nothing will protect you for a back-door slip, but for recasts: (NOTE: None of these are perfect means! Every single one will have exceptions! Do not use any one method as a holy grail guideline.)

Check for the obvious. Wrong skin tones for what the doll was released in or fantasy parts that should be translucent that aren't, for example. Check for the mold and company name on taobao. Not every company or every mold is being recast. If no one is recasting it, you're safer than if everyone is. Is it missing cast-in parts it should have? For example, Littlefee have cast-in wing magnets. Are those magnets missing? The wrong size?

Check the headcap. Not necessarily for a plate or ID number- not all companies use those. But in my experience with casting figures, the headcap is the hardest part to get right because the fit is so precise. There's some leeway with getting imprecise arms, legs, or hands to fit together as those of us who make hybrids know. But a headcap is a very unique thing. A shrunken recast headcap will likely not fit a legitimate doll's head.

As someone on one of the tumblr said, the absence of a box or seams does not indicate a recast. But the presence of those things adds a degree of legitimacy. (I don't personally keep my boxes because of space issues, so I'm an example of one of those exceptions you'd find.) Another thing I saw on tumblr was to beware of very thin eyewells- but then again, Soom sent out a bunch of Lami/Trachy with painfully thin resin around the eyes already, so it's not perfect either.

Check the S-hooks. Sure, people change S-hooks. I'm an idiot who unstrings all of her dolls at once and then forgets what S-hook actually goes in what doll. But unusual S-hooks actually embedded into the resin could be a sign that it's a fake.

Anyone else care to share tips? I figure that rather than just being paranoid, we should get some productive use out of this thread.

ETA: I provide these tips so people can protect themselves from buying recasts. NOT so anyone can go 'recast hunting.' If some random person asked to see my doll's s-hooks or headcap and I wasn't thinking of selling the doll to them, I'd tell them to take a hike. I'm under no obligation to prove my doll's legitimacy to someone unless they're a potential buyer. Like I said, I don't keep boxes because I do not have the space, and at the moment I don't know what I did with my Lami's paperwork- and I'd be darn steamed if someone accused them of being fakes just because of that!

 

I found a forum that is catered to recast, somebody actually copy and pasted bits and pieces from people's post. It also has a topic on the fear of being outed by DoA, I find it funny how they are offended that we find their actions wrong, it's like a criminal getting mad that he/she is getting treated like one! I find it sad that the are people who thinks it is ok to buy recast but I shouldnt be surprised though.

 

There is a problem with making comprehensive guides for identifying a recast and direct comparisons to the real product and such. While yes, the prospective second hand buyer is armed with enough knowledge to hopefully protect themself from purchasing a recast unwittingly. HOWEVER by making this information available and more accessible to the innocent uninformed, we also arm those same recasters we're trying to protect people from with the same information that will help them make a "better" more deceiving product. It's a double-edged sword, and terribly frustrating.

If I recall, this exact reason is why we don't openly discuss differences and identifying factors here on DoA.

 

I agree with you on that, there is a post on the same topic but undera different thread, the poster me mentioned the same thing you said,that it is not a good idea to post the differences on the original and recast.

 

While I think that doing this is a great idea on paper - it could help a lot of people who aren't able to tell the difference between the real thing and a fake, and weed out potential bootleg sales - giving in-depth descriptions, pictures, and diagrams of why a doll is a bootleg and not the real deal, can have adverse effects.

In our good deed, we might be setting ourselves up for worse problems with these dolls. Bootleggers can easily get a hold of the same information that we're getting and can use it as an education on how to make their bootlegged dolls more believable. If they see what areas they've went wrong in - what needs improvement - then we end up cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Other than that, the fact that the bootleg industry seems to be gaining more and more steam worries me about the MP. I was always cautious about the MP before I knew about this (mainly because of Ebay and all the horror stories I've heard about the risk you take), but this just adds to my fear.

Now, we not only have to worry if we get the doll at all, but we also have to worry if it's real when we get it.

 

Of course they're offended. It's usually the ones in the wrong with the least amount of ethics who raise the biggest stink over how they're being oppressed/treated bad when it's their own actions that have brought the consequences down on them.

I was linked to that forum, and really, really? They have a paypal donation button on the front page. It's a perfect storm of desperation and utter tackiness.