religion and your views on your dolls.

The OP clearly believes that our dolls can have souls or spirits...
it's based on her own religion. So how exactly is that different
from people giving their own opinions based on their religious
beliefs? Either way it's merely "faith" based, as you stated.

 

I admit, I'm not much on the idea of souls and whatnot. I'm not a horribly religious person by nature, and frankly I think it's more likely that if there is consciousness after death it simply involves one waiting in a gigantic DMV-like area before you can be sorted to the appropriate "heaven/afterlife" of your choice, but then again that's just me.

However, the concept of souls can have several different interpretations. It can be life-force, a personality, the mind, the ability to dream, many many things. Of course, because of how wide an explanation a soul can be, there are also many different opinions of what has a soul and what doesn't have a soul. I happen to recall a bit of folklore that claimed any object once it reached a certain age supposedly gained a soul, even umbrellas and hairbrushes, so in that sense, I suppose even dolls could have souls.

However, I can't help but wonder if the word "soul" was chosen a bit incorrectly for this thread. Reading the OP's message made me think of "The Velveteen Rabbit" for some reason, the concept of how all the toys wanted to be "real" more than anything in the world, and could gain that only by being played with by a child. By playing with these dolls, we give them personalities, backgrounds, adventures and hardships which, to us, make them seem life-like and real. In that sense, yes, I feel that many of my dolls are "real". I can describe them much in the same way I describe real people, and in some conversations I have been mistaken for discussing actual people when I am speaking of my dolls. Because of that, I do feel that in some way they have become real to me and perhaps even some of my doll-owning friends. However, I would never say that any of my dolls have a soul, but then again, I wouldn't consider myself to have one either.

 

Lordnoir: If the afterlife consists of waiting endlessly in a DMV-esque environment with a whole bunch of other dead people, no wonder evil villains are constantly pursuing immortality

Anyway, I would never want to belittle anybody's faith, no matter what faith it is- I think faith is a great thing to have. But at the same time I don't want people to tell me that the things they believe are THE ONLY things to believe and that what everyone else believes is wrong. I didn't see the OP doing that, so I don't have a problem there. And like I said, I certainly don't believe ALL dolls have souls, so I don't really care what other owners do with their dolls. If they dress their dolls up every day and take them for walks in a pram and go shopping with them to buy food for them which they then feed to them while talking to them like a real person = fine by me. Likewise, leaving your doll unstrung in a box 24/7 and never ever taking it out and forgetting it's even there = fine by me.

 

What purpose would giving a doll a soul serve? I'm not sure what I entirely think, but personally if souls do exist- not everyone has one that's for sure imo. I think you would need to grow a soul, so the seed is there for example, but through acts and learning (not neccessarily good either), humans are capable of growing souls. What happens with the soul and to what purpose? I don't know, eternal life maybe? I don't see why a doll would have a soul.

As for religion, mmm not my cup of tea sorry. But, I'm a scientist and although I have feelings and thoughts about some aspects, to me we are still just flesh and blood and bone, if it was made by God then I don't think it was a very good job. I do find people's faiths interesting, and I think it's a shame that there has been so much bloodshed over people who are essentially looking for the same answer; just using a different question to get there. I work with the mind, and as 'amazing' as it sometimes may seem, it's still just an organ; regardless of it's plasticity, when it has gone, it has gone. Maybe there is a soul in there somewhere, or with the heart; and the unscientist in me thinks we need to grow them first.

A poster mentioned about children learning to talk byt 4, but in psychology this ability is under enormous debate, with some people thinking it is innate and others thinking we learn it. There is no difinitive answer -yet, but there is the room to suggest we have cognitive capacities for it, even before we are born. Whether a 'god' did that, or it is due to genetics is another thing. Or, maybe our science will simply prove the existence of God.

Right here, right now; dolls are dolls. They cost me a lot of money, and I enjoy them as a hobby. I pull them apart and paint them, give them new eyes, hybrid them and dress them how I see fit. Not sure what sort of God that would make me if they do have a soul...?

 

I don't even believe in the concept of souls (atheist). But I will say that I do believe that there is something more to them then just an inanimate shell. It's a projection of all my dreams and fantasies. It's a part of me, and I am very much alive! So, in my mind, they are very much alive, too. Though, I do find that the "aliveness" really depends on whether they have faceups, clothes, wigs, eyes, etc. The blank slate is not "alive" because I haven't put anything of myself into it yet.

 

I like that a lot

 

Uh, I'm not going to take sides on the debate at this point, but I do want to throw out there that if religion is allowed to be discussed at all as a factor, then I see no reason why those who do have a faith in a pantheon, goddess, the God of the Bible, or whatever, shouldn't be allowed to discuss their views without people freaking out and accusing them of "inflicting their personal beliefs" on others. Agnostics and athiests are posting here with complete freedom, and wording their posts as though they are stating fact rather than opinion, because that's just the natural way to speak when one is describing one's beliefs. Those who are believers in a religious faith should be allowed to do the same, without being snapped at for posting in the same manner that everyone else is.

A degree of maturity is necessary if religion is going to be discussed. Of course a person discussing beliefs (in a God or in a lack of one) is going to consider their own views right and other views wrong. That's the nature of belief. It doesn't mean that they automatically despise, disrespect, refuse to interact with, or otherwise reject anyone who doesn't share their beliefs -- it just means they disagree on that point. I don't know about you, but I can love and spend time with my parents despite our differences in political beliefs! The same goes for religion.

So, please. Calm down. Religious believers describing their views are not always trying to convert you. They are certainly not attacking you. They are just doing the same thing you are. They are telling you how they see it.

 

Thank you for pointing this out, as it now means I don't have to.

Yumi~, I wish to say right now I have no ill-will towards you in any way. You have a complete right to state your beliefs and opinions, and though I may not agree with you, I have no right to say if you are right or wrong. I will say nothing bad about your beliefs, but I will point out the flaws in your argument. This is a debate thread after all, and this is simply what debaters do.

Who decides that XX is male and XY is female? Apparently you do, as the patterns XX refer to females and XY to males. Also, I would point out that there are exceptions to XX and XY, for instance, what about those born with chromosome XXY? Is that (higher power, be it God, Allah, whoever) being unable to decide between the two sexes? What about those born with XXYY? One must remember that everything isn't always quite so concrete as we like to think it is.

The ability to communicate and comprehend is what separates humans from animals? In that case, I have a dog who must be human. She tells me she's scared of storms by whimpering, hates cats by growling at them and that she's happy to see me by wagging her tail as I approach. She understand my commands to sit, come, and even to go into my room, sit on my bed and wait for me. By your definition, the fact that she can communicate and comprehend means that she must be human, and therefore has a soul.

I will also point out that chimpanzees and other apes communicate both in the wild and in captivity among other apes. Does this mean that they are human? Wolves communicate amongst their packs through bites, whines, whimpers and howls, does this mean that they are human? In this sense, people can argue that their dolls communicate and comprehend them, so does this make them human?

Absynthe has pointed out that human might not even be born with the ability to speak, only the capacity to learn it, so by your definition, wouldn't this mean even humans are not human?

I point these out not because I feel your opinion is wrong, but because your examples and logic you have stated are flawed and easy to rip holes in. I am certain that if your faith is really as strong as your post leads me to believe, you could find a far stronger example if you wished. In fact, even I, an atheist, can find a very strong bit of evidence to support a religion. For example, the scientific rule of exchange states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, it is simply transfered in some way shape or form. Well, that's science supporting reincarnation. Do I believe in reincarnation personally? No, but if I wanted to argue that it was the only clear and logical choice for the average person to choose in regards to religion, I could do my research and make valid points and rebuttals against any of my debate opponents. The fact that it seems you failed to do some research or got some information incorrectly only harms whatever sort of point you are attempting to make. Even if I don't agree with your opinion, having a strong and sound argument would atleast make me respect you for the effort you put into it.

Again, I am not saying that you are wrong or right in your statement of you opinion of dolls having souls. Frankly, like many debate threads on this forum, everything is all up to personal opinion. Whether or not you feel like dolls have souls, or personalities, or even feelings and such is simply up to personal opinion and usually doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Just have your toys and enjoy them however you like, it's nobody's business if you decide the way you enjoy your dolls is by setting them on fire or running them over with a car. They're just dolls unless someone puts a meaning to them, just like letters are just symbols until meanings are given to the letters to make them something beyond symbols.

 

I'm fully aware of that. As I mentioned, I ENJOY religious debates and have taken part in many organised ones before. I can very well recognise when someone is describing how they see things, and when they assume that they are right. This is the same NO MATTER what the faith is. If I felt a Wiccan or Satanist was doing the same to me, I would still object. And I would also object if an atheist were to tell a religious person that their views were wrong.
Atheism is the way I personally see the world. It is no better than being religious- I find in many ways it's worse, because religion can often offer comfort to people. If someone wanted to debate with me as to WHY I'm an atheist, I would tell them, but I would be sure to make it clear that it isn't right for everyone and that everyone should make up their own minds.
That is why I had a problem with Yumi's post, not because I hate to hear people voicing opinions about God and religion. The opposite is true.

 

I want to make sure I understand.... Are you saying that when you have an opinion, you don't, in fact, think your opinion is correct? And that when you debate others on the subject of that opinion, you hold that all opinions presented are correct?

Somehow I don't think that's what you meant. But feel free to correct me.

I know we live in a society in which it is polite to recognize the value of everyone's opinion, but there is a difference between accepting the value of an opinion and accepting its correctness. Either you believe dolls have souls, or you don't. Either you believe there is a God, or you don't. Taking a stand on either of those issues and having an opinion on them by definition requires you to "declare" that you think the other side is "wrong" even without saying a word. It's not an attack, it's not rude, it's not a bad thing. It's just the way opinions work. Everyone can't be correct at the same time.

 

I feel my mind works in a much more "shades of grey" way than this. The idea of being "correct" is a very subjective, not to mention solipsistic, one. In fact, when I debate this opinion, I do believe that all the opinions being sounded around me are correct- because they are the opinions that are correct for those voicing them. I believe my opinion is correct- FOR ME. Other people's opinions are correct- FOR THEM. They have decided on their opinions to help them best cope with the world around them- who am I to tell them they're wrong? Who are they to tell me I'm wrong?
Yes, there are certain things I disagree with- for example, when someone tells me there is a God and I should believe in Him, I disagree with that because I personally don't have a God because I do not believe in him. One of my best friends, however, does believe in God- and I agree with this opinion, because she has GIVEN herself a god. (Bear with me.) She attributes incidents to God which I call mere coincidences, and she feels the presense of God when I feel nothing. Because she believes in God, she feels Him there for her- therefore, she DOES have a God, and I agree with her when she says so. God exists- for her. But not for me. Therefore, we are both right, despite having different opinions.
As for believing dolls have souls, or they don't- again, I'm in a grey area. As I said, I believe SOME dolls have souls. If YOU think your doll has a soul- well, then maybe it does. You've given it one. If you think it doesn't have a soul, then of course it won't seem to. And as for believing in God or not believing in God, there are plenty of people out there who simply don't know. Others don't particularly care.
To be perfectly clear- I don't view opinions as correct or incorrect, because I simply don't see things in such black-and-white terms. Opinions are the perspectives of people viewing the world in a myriad of different ways. Some I agree with, some I don't- doesn't mean they're wrong. Just as nobody here is wrong- we just see things differently from one another. It makes life more interesting that way!

 

Explained in those terms, your view makes much more sense to me, Harlequin-Elle. I do hope others will be as open-minded in considering others' points of view.

 

Just this.

 

This pretty much sums up my thinking here -- on a number of subjects, actually, that frequently come up here. I suspect most problems arise because people frequently don't seem terribly able to think in these terms very often, and want to apply their universals to everyone else around them. How many threads have been about 'mistreatment' of dolls that are merely a matter of different perspectives, after all? It's usually because someone doesn't think 'their way' ends where 'other people's property' begins. (Or they believe that all dolls are somehow community property, as has sometimes arisen, too.)

Back to the notion that 'well some people did believe dolls were spirit vessels' on the main topic, well, I hate to be blunt about it, but... so? People believed -- and some still do -- that female circumcision is a good idea worth perpetuating and it has ancient roots, too. I don't think the latter is a good idea and in fact find it utterly repugnant; it being 'an ancient traditional belief and religious/cultural practice' is not going to change my mind about that. Similarly, just because some people believe/d something currently or in the past, it is not necessarily going to influence the ideas of others.

Just for the record, I do believe that items can become 'influenced' by outside factors that can have side effects of some kind. Dolls aren't immune to that -- but then neither is my keychain, or an old chair, or a piece of jewelry. I don't believe a doll is any more likely than any other object to have something unusual attach itself to it, but by the same token I also believe it is very rare for this to happen at all to anything. I don't think dolls do this by default, or are any more likely to do so than any other item. I don't think it's the purpose of a doll in any way.

The property I live on has had very peculiar things happening on it all my life, and from family reports, peculiar things have happened here before I was born as well -- I'm not sticking my head in the sand and pretending otherwise or that things beyond normal experience can't happen. What I do know, however, is that even before I had BJDs, I had plenty of dolls. None of them have shown any sign of anything peculiar. An old painting? Yes. A mirror? Don't even get me started... *shudder-twitch* But never the dolls... not even when things were extra special strange in these parts.

 

I would certainly agree that we just don't understand everything that happens, and when you hear about quantum theories of consciousness and things like that, it can get seriously far out. So while I'm an atheist who does not worship science as some atheists do (not referring to anyone here, btw), science is showing us just how weird and wonderful the universe is.

However, even in the bizarre quantum physics of consciousness, that relies on cells that don't exist in a resin doll. So in my worldview, I don't see consciousness as possible in a doll. I don't know what a soul would even be, so I can't say anything particularly useful on that front. I mean, soul doesn't necessarily mean the same thing across religions or between individual speakers. Are we talking some kind of life force, sentience, awareness, consciousness, personality, other things that don't even occur to me?

I very much agree with Harlequin-Elle. We've none of us all the answers, so we're all just doing the best we can with what information we've got at the moment -- whether that information comes from the brain, the gut, scientific research, religious texts, philosophy, poetry, art, or what our resin whispers to us at night when we're sleeping . . .
"Boots . . . get me those red boots from Tata's . . ."

 

OP, If the resin that made your doll was melted down tomorrow would you still feel it had a spirit? If the resin that made your doll was never formed into a doll would you also feel compelled to treat it like a human? Does resin require human form for you to see it as having a soul? Just wondering.

This one point sort of bothered me

I don't need any reminding and I haven't forgotten because I think that statement is untrue. You would first need to demonstrate to me what you judge as the "first dolls". The first doll I can think of is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf dating at about 24,000 BC and she is believed to be an idol of fertility. To me she looks a hell of lot like a doll and there is no evidence that can prove she was used as a human vassal. That sounds like something from your own belief system and I don't think it is correct to suggest we should remember and accept something we might not believe in. I hope you can understand me there

I don't think dolls have soul. I am sorry that frustrates some people out there but that is how I see it. However, I do love to imagine their characters and I do treat them very well. They are human like and it feels wrong to knock them around. I enjoy spoiling them and catering to their personalities, but those personalities are invented by ME. Not a wandering spirit.

Any heart break I feel for neglectfulness and carelessness I save for real people and animals and any living thing that can experience pain and suffering.

 

This sums it up quite nicely for me.

It seems this has become touchy, as it deals with people's core beliefs, so I'll leave it here. It's kinda cool that I found someone like-minded among this sea of various beliefs, though ^^

 

I wish we could hear from a more diverse range of people. I am an atheist myself but I would like to hear what Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jews, Spiritualist, Luciferians, Satanists, Pagans, Wiccans etc etc have to say on the matter, and also adherents to other non-religion based systems of thought/experience.

Seeing as BJDs started in Japan - what is the Shinto viewpoint on this question? Anyone? What about traditional indigenous faiths/belief systems (i.e. Australian Aboriginal, Native American).

Too often we just seem to have the same viewpoints coming up over and over. There must be a wider range of religious (or non-religious) beliefs on here...

 

Dolls (and other objects) with an emotional attachment from the owner become alive when they are 100 years old, which is a bad thing, because they'd turn to monsters (bakemono).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukumogami

The ningyo kuyo matsuri is an annual funeral ceremony for unwanted dolls.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20061015x1.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dolls

Huh. I have family who's Jewish, and my mom was raised Jewish even though she's atheist now. I might ask about that.

I think something else we need to consider though, is that even people of the same religion or belief system may have different views on the subject. That's why there are so many offshoots of Christianity, after all! SO even if someone has a certain belief system they may approach it in a different way , and thus see things in a different way, so we shouldn't automatically assume all Wiccians/Christians/Athiests/etc. are going to have the exact same approach to this subject. In other words, less "But aren't you people supposed to believe this?"

And I totally agree with the atheists speak freely so religious people should be able to as well thing. No one here is saying you have to believe in anything, so stop being so defensive!