religion and your views on your dolls.

I'll try and not ramble here, lol.

I don't believe that the concept of souls belongs to 'religion' at all but more to 'philosophy', or 'spirituality'.
I don't have a set religion/denomination but I do believe in the concept of souls--just not in dolls.

Why?

For the same reasons that you believe in them.
Thus no one is right or wrong in how they deal with this, and because the topic of 'spirituality' is not only off-topic, but wayyyy to in-depth, you have to agree to disagree.

Though I may cuddle, and hug, and kiss, and coo, and talk to my dolls--Not everyone else does. And the best thing to do in this hobby is to use dolls as a way to understand what you previously didn't even fathom! Hope this helps.

 

Let's say a child is naughty -- deliberately naughty. The parent is angry and sends the child to its room. At that moment, which is a sort of crisis in the child's little life, the child not only feels unloved, it feels unloveable -- as if no one will or could ever love them again. It also feels angry and unloving --at that moment it hates everybody. Then the child finds its doll -- or teddy or stuffed rabbit. And the doll is the same as she or he has always been. The same calm loving look from its eyes. The child finds that there is someone in the world who still loves it, no matter how naughty it's been, no matter how angry it feels. And the child finds that there someone in the world that the child still loves -- the doll. The doll has made a little hole in the child's anger and resentment and despair and let a little love in.

This is not nothing. This is a powerful, good thing. True, it needn't be a doll. It might be a special blanket or a special place or a book. It might even be a grandmother (or a can of soup). But dolls and teddies are peculiarly fitted for this role (and grandmothers often have a View on the previous naughtiness -- dolls never do).

Now if you are an atheist, perhaps you might say that the doll reminds the child of the possibility of love -- but this feels a little weak since the child feels real love from the doll.**** If you are a Christian or a Wiccan or a Pagan, then you might say that the love that the child feels from the doll is God's love or the Goddess's love. A real, true and desperately needed thing.

OK, now for the more religious bit. Three pages back Anbaachan said this which got me thinking.

I believe in a God who is present in the physical world, who is intensely in love with the physical world and its creatures and whose spirit moves in stones and trees, cathedrals, cities, subway trains and dolls. This is a perfectly respectable Christian doctrine called Immanence. If God doesn't love the physical world why would He have troubled Himself to be made Man? Jesus was a woodworker. He made things. He worked on physical materials and created. He cared about his materials, his tools and the things he made. Perhaps he made toys. Dolls to comfort and console naughty Nazerene children.

****When I say this interpretation feels weak, I don't mean the atheist position is weak. The atheist position has much to be said for it and atheists say innumerable good and true and thoughtful things. I mean that as a naturally religious person, my imagining of what an atheist might think here seems weak.

 

This is so true and such a beautiful thing to say. Thank you.

I have already stated my own opinion on this topic, but to answer it in a way more connected with my religion, I try again. I am what one might consider Pagan (and have been part of a Wiccan group for some time in my life).
From a certain Pagan, Wiccan and also other - I am quoting Crowley here (who actually was a crazy guy but said some interesting things in my opinion), I hope it doesn't disturb anyone - point of view, "Love is the Law", and "Do What Thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law" (but it is important to remember that this sentence is usually used in the sence of: "...as long as it doesn't cause harm to others"). Hence everything in the world is one/connected, and it is moved by, created, and inhabited by love - and is in some way alive. And at the same time, it is the right of every individual to decide if they want to believe their dolls have souls or not, as long as it doesn't harm others.

 

I'm not of any faith, but see it like this:

I do not think dolls have souls, I think as objects made in our own likeness we project souls on to them.
In the past I have had many, many bjds (and currently have none...) and have treated them all with a kind of respect, because of this human representation not because I believe they are really listening or alive in any way; as an example, I feel uncomfortable leaving a doll without a wig on, I feel bad for them as I would feel bad for a human that couldn't tend to themselves.

So, I guess for me that's it - I am kind to humans, so I am kind to my dolls that represent humans...

 

While I'm open for the possibility of the existence of souls (due to experiences...) I'm more on the side that souls don't exist. Especially not after I saw a presentation where 'love' was explained. 'Love' and other feelings for that matter are, according to scientific proof, nothing more than chemical processes in your brain. So I 'believe' (as that's still what it is; belief) that a soul does not exist and that your consciousness is nothing more than your brain functioning well.

Therefore, dolls having souls is impossible to me, or any other inanimate creature. And any creature with a brain has a consciousness, or a 'soul'.

And on the energy put into dolls... we are all slightly radio active (which is normal) Everything is slightly radio active. Energy is exactly this. So this energy thing is also a bit
odd to me... (Forgive me if I stated this a little aggressive or anything... I seem to fail
at putting it a little less 'direct'. )

 

As a child, my toys were alive to me in the secret world of my imagination (like the Velveteen Rabbit). My resin dolls are alive to me in the same way because I have chosen to imagine personalities for them and invent interactions between the other dolls I own, rather than just standing them on a shelf for display. I do this for fun and entertainment and for a diversion from my real life. It's a little like being attached to the characters in a favorite tv show or book. I love the characters and feel an attachment even though I know they aren't real. My feelings are real even if the characters (or dolls) aren't. I don't think my spiritual beliefs (or lack of) have anything to do with my dolls, except that by anthropomorphizing them by making up names and characters for them, I reflect a bit of myself on them.

 

I hope not to offend you, you haven't offended me but I feel very differently.
If a man makes a chair, and names it "chair" it does not become alive. If giving it a human form makes it possible to possess by wandering spirits, then Christians would know to steer away from them as graven images and idols. That's 2 out of 10 of the 10 commandments. If it was alive, then you would be enslaved to take care of it forever, that's bondage.
I don't exactly treat my doll as a hunk of resin, more like a piece of fine art. i wouldn't let a Picasso get dusty in the attic, neither my doll. But I hate to imagine what it would be like if I had to fear judgment over not treating it like it has a soul.

 

I agree the feeling of love is a chemical reaction, but Love is not limited to feelings, or chemistry. If that was so, someone with depression cannot love, and someone who's manic has more love than others. You can tell who loves by who is not selfish, not by brain chemistry

 

For some reason it's difficult for me to get any links concerning Islam and Idolism.
Anyway in Islam it's discouraged for Muslims to belief in inanimate objects having souls. Inanimate objects (be it a can or something with a human shape or face) are not meant to be anything more than that. In fact, Islam actually discourage the creation of things that are too lifelike or try to imitate living things (especially humans) as the human mind isn't always capable of dissociating emotion with a familiar face.

Associating emotions with inanimate objects can lead to a bond, and bonding equals to idolism, and idolism is just a stone-throw away from worship, which is one of the most dangerous threat to a Muslim as we believe in the one and only God.

For the hardcore Muslims, they even avoid decorations that has people or faces on it (a family photo may be argueable). Some moderate ones just ensure the toys they give their children do not look too lifelike. Liberals like me believe it's alright for us as long as we know we're not worshipping them or putting obvious belief that they are alive or have souls.

.....

This is probably no longer irrelevant but earlier someone mentioned that religion has no place in the forum. What does that really mean? Because I see priest dolls and etc all over the place. I see animistic themes, and atheists flaunting their "dis"-belief here and there....

People with religious beliefs usually end up sitting quietly and just skim their eyes over chains of atheistic posts because they know if they say something with the same "It's silly to think otherwise" tone they'd get butchered like yumi.

 

[Blast, I forgot to hit reply with quote, but anyway, this is directed at Lula78]

I didn't take you as being rude at all- I just voiced my opinion that it was a bit wrong to laugh at others, (whether of your culture or not ) If I misunderstood your comment then no harm done, and I'm sorry if my post was taken as being rude!

[this part is simply a general statement!]
Anyway, I do think most people have handled this debate rather well - it's been nice hearing so many different perspectives, and I've certainly learned a lot about the sheer range of different beliefs!

 

NP! My post was very rushed because of a phone call, so I didn't really see that
saying "I had to laugh" might be viewed differently than was intended! I was
laughing because, especially in America, people throw things away and never give
it a thought....so the fact that there's an entire ceremony where people want to
let go of their possessions in a (slightly) more loving way than just throwing them
into a dumpster, and actually pay for the service....made me laugh. In a completely
non-judgmental way, which is often very hard to express in a post. And clearly I did
not succeed in sounding that way...

I understand that even if you share a race/culture you may still not agree with all
beliefs etc. (clearly I don't) I just didn't want people reading my post thinking that
I was laughing at Japanese people, which is why I added in "I'm half Japanese!"
*sweat* now my post is really OT.....and hopefully won't be deleted.

 

I am not a brain specialist, so I don't how everything works exactly, but that also makes me not understand how a depressive person cannot love. Obviously, feelings are more complicated than just 'something that triggers a certain reaction in the brains', as 'personality' comes in... but that's probably also determined by how your brain is developed.

Of course, I might saying something completely ignorant here...

 

Roeleines: This post better explains depression better, and the one before it.

As for the OP, I don't feel that my dolls have souls, but they do have personalities. This is because my dolls represent my original characters, though. Spirits are another matter, but I personally don't believe they have them. I can understand why some might feel that dolls do have them, though.
As a Christian I can see how dolls can be considered idolatry, but that doesn't mean they automatically are. Someone that enjoys a fine meal isn't automatically guilty of the sin of Gluttony, from my understanding. I have yet to encounter anyone that views dolls as something evil; I do however know some people that are creeped out by dolls in general. This is more related to past traumas than religion, though. XD
Further, my dad is a very religious man that for a while was convinced that all goths were Satanists (for reference) and he's been quite welcoming of my love of dolls. He even brags about my sewing for them to his even more religious mom, who seems fine with them also. (Now that I think about it, she gave me a doll when I was a baby, so it's not really shocking) Point is, mine and my family's religion hasn't impacted my participation in the hobby. I'm also not one that enjoys shoving stuffed animals and Barbies in a box up in the attic, either, but that's because I enjoy seeing them and for many of the animals I have lots of childhood memories attached to them. :3 *sentimental hoarder in the making, just watch*

 

I'm not sure that the soul exists as a tangible entity. I'm not a atheist for the sake of hedonism and the rest of it; I like the world to be explained in scientific terms, that's just how I work. My fundie Lutheran grandparents and extended relatives would probably say that my doll collecting and time and effort spent on them would border on idolatry, if they were asked. They would probably also say that dolls that represent supernatural beings were attempts of the devil trying to creep into one's life - they denounced the books I read in highschool in the same way. There are many, many different flavours of Christian beliefs

Personally, I believe what 'life' one's dolls have come from one's own emotional attachment to them. The immense power of the imagination allows one to envision what is projected onto an item as something that instead emanates from them; the more one develops the projection, the closer the perceived bond. It's definitely a nice thing to experience, nothing to sniff at, all that. But I do recognise that all the great fun I get from dolls originates from my own mind - it's an empowering thought that the mind is limitless.

 

Well said Latte. I have been watching this thread for a while trying to decide if I should add anything or if it was even worth adding anything. I must admit when I read the OP my first thought was this was going to be another one of those sentimental "if you don't treat a doll as I treat my dolls then you aren't treating them right" which isn't a debate topic at all. Religion is a very personal thing, as is the belief in a soul or lack thereof. I have never found that my religious beliefs (or more precisely my lack of any religious beliefs) at all effects the way I relate to my dolls. I do not think I can find words any better than those Latte has provided us with.

 

Hmmm, that would actually constitute an enormous assumption on the relationship between the parent and child if they were to react that way and feel 'unloved' and instead search for the bond elsewhere. I think that is more down to attachment to the parent rather than the doll/teddy/comforter and a sweeping generalisation of child-parent bonds.

Who ever said a depressive cannot love? That is kind of ignorant; you're right; of course they can love, but although chemicals are implemented in the understanding of depression (serotonin for example), it does not equate to depression. In fact, research has indicated enlarged hippocampal regions of the brains which would actually suggest over-emotions. If you want someone who doesn't 'love' as the term love is understood generally, then a psychopath could fit that description. Although the theories behind that are not chemical based but instead behavioural and linked to pre-natal development.

Well, I am :P and as I said before, serotonin is linked to depression- but is not fundamentally the root cause; if it was then SSRI's would have immediate affect (which they don't), and the DSM-IV wouldn't need their criteria Depression does not indicate apathy at all, when working with people with depression it is clear that they have huge emotions. You might be confusing it with anhedonia, which means they are unable to feel pleasure from things, or very little; but they certainly have compassion, albeit seem selfish at times. Depressive people love/hate just as much as others...I have no idea where this idea is coming from? I think it could be a very damaging perspective of people who have depression and doesn't help the stigma associated with it.

I find the idea of dolls with souls very interesting, although not one I could probably entertain. I don't think there is anything wrong with believing that, it is no different to believing in a bearded man in the sky or an elephant with lots of arms in my opinion. I think the suggestion by the Islamic community against the idolisation of dolls makes sense to them. One of the posters on here also mentioned about a doll reaching 100 years and becoming a monster! eek!

 

As I'm much more qualified to talk about depression than religion, I agree with Absynthe: I think you're confusing it with anhedonia. It's true that having depression can make you lose interest in things you once enjoyed, but you do NOT stop loving your friends, family, partner etc because of it. You can even fall in love while you have depression. Neurotransmitters in the brain do play a large part in depression, but it's also down to your thought patterns, which is why cognitive behavioural therapy is so widely recommended.
It is also possible to be manic and depressive at the same time- this is known as a mixed episode or agitated depression and is pretty horrible.

 

Silveraura, I thought your first post was just beautiful. I think there is something special about a doll because it is a symbol. It's not just the substance (in this case, resin) that something is made of but also its form (the shape of a human) that makes it what it is. Form itself is a language, in which all objects are statements. A beautiful doll, for example, can be "read" as making the statement that human life is worthwhile. Maybe that's why our dolls make us happy.

I wouldn't say a doll has no soul just because it's not alive. Obviously, dolls are not alive in the biological sense, but biology--and all science--deals only with the physical universe, that is, things that can be detected with the five senses. Souls, on the other hand, belong to the realm of the spiritual. Biology has nothing to say about souls; as they cannot be observed with the five senses or otherwise measured, they are outside its scope.

Sukeban, thank you for sharing those links! They were enlightening.

Lizzard, thank you for being the voice of tolerance in this thread.

Psammead, I thought your story about the child was beautiful and true.

 

Religion, like this line of questioning is more a matter of psychology.
The real question is does believing it make it true?.

 

There is indeed a good reason why religion and politics are not polite conversation. As much as I love talking about both, it CAN cause more harm than good, especially when people claim "this is the way it is" instead of "this is what I believe."

Knowing this, I will tread very cautiously. I can not truly claim to be religious, but as an occultist, I do believe that all objects have sparks. My understanding of existance comes chiefly from Jewish mysticism, which teaches that part of god is in everything, as nothing could exist without him constantly feeding existence. If god is alive, everything he is in must also be alive, including dolls. Now, given that man is believed to be made in the image of god, he has the ability to shape the worlds (i.e. physical, spiritual, and mental worlds) we can effect the spark in an object. In this way we create their personalities, or at least help shape them. Yes, these ideas effect how I take care of my dolls, and the way that I love them... Just as it effects my views of everything else in existence.