religion and your views on your dolls.

Spirituality is not necessarily off topic, nor is philosophy. The lines between all three are not easy to separate, and religion can actually be seen as both. Well, worth while religion (in my personal opinion) is spiritual, and religion can never be separated from philosophy. Atheism is not considered here, because I have never personally encountered an atheist who believed atheism should be considered religion; just like science or math, atheism can be fully worthwhile without it being spiritual in the least.

Also, though I do believe that dolls have the potential to have souls, I do also agree that they are useful to understand things previously unknown. Humanity is great at working out problems and modes of behavior through interaction and story telling... dolls are great ways to induce these natural behaviors in a safe way.

Edit: (safe as in non-judgmental, or emotionally safe)

 

I wasn't meaning to suggest that they don't care or can't care and are thus sociopaths, but that the motivation and passion aren't there. I've been in that state so I wasn't trying to add to the stigma. I added underlining to what I was trying to illustrate at 4am last night
Thank you for the corrections and information, though. I have a few friends that got shoved onto Anti-depressants without any supplemental help to alleviate the cause of the depression, so being able to put it into words finally is great.

 

Thank you, pinkbunnygirlmoo. I love this and it's very much my view. Oddly enough another occultist -- Alan Moore the British comics writer -- has influenced me a great deal in my Christian thinking. I don't think God (or the Goddess) created the physical world to be a sort of incidental backdrop to a purely human drama. The fourteenth-century female mystic, Julian of Norwich, had a vision in which God gave her a tiny round thing like a hazelnut to hold in her hand -- it was all that was created and it was sustained by God, as you say.

 

I think that the depression conversation kinda lead us off topic. I only brought it up as an exaggerated point that the ability to love or hate does not equal the existence of a soul. I am also not saying that a doll could have a soul despite it's inability to love or hate. Quite the opposite... I am only saying that feelings, emotions, synapses and brain chemistry all exist independently of the presence of a soul.

 

Finley- I think that is the whole point- some people would dispute the existence of the organic human without a soul. So, those feelings, emotions, brain etc are a direct evidence of a creator and hence a given soul. Yes, it did go off topic, but myself and and a couple of others felt it neccesary to point out the incorrect statements that were being made about depression. That is a science and has, as near as dammit anyway, facts which when you study and work within that field are quite important. Souls and religion are more open to debate and so it just seemed like a little tangent that the topic was going off on that needing clarification.

I do think I agree with you that the human ability to love and hate (as well as other emotions that enable us to function successfully within our social world) do not prove a soul. I just wonder why it seems so important that our dolls do have a soul or personality? Is it not sufficient enough that these little resin things just make us happy? I'd think it a negative if a soul did exist and it was trapped inside an object that had no means of expression and no free will. I admit to not being too worldy known on religions, but isn't God giving humans free will a common misconception? Which religion would agree that an inanimate object, hand crafted by ourselves should be ordained with such a gifted and powerful thing as a soul? Atleast our souls are not trapped, and I admit to having laymans observations on this, but surely the soul is released upon death? Why would a soul be trapped in something that cannot die?

 

Edit: These are very interesting points, I'd like to comment. (Before the edit it was:"I know your words are directed mostly towards Finley, but these are very interesting points which awakened thoughts in my head, and since you wrote it here in the discussion openly, and not per private message, I hope it is okay for me to comment" . I had thought falsely that you were addressing Finley at first. Sorry ^^)


I just wonder why it seems so important that our dolls do have a soul or personality?
Absynthe, I see two reasons for the importance of this topic.
Your profession seems to be something in the psychology field - or research in general (please do not take it as offence, I do not intend to ask you about real life facts or anything, it was just my impression ). So you are probably familiar with Theory of Mind. Here I see the first reason. I think that empathy and the ability to "guess what the other person is thinking" plays a part in the discussion if a doll has a soul. We don't only "guess what other persons are thinking", we extend the guessing to inanimate objects. I think this plays the trick on us. The moment we "guess what the doll is thinking", we begin to ask ourselves if it really does think at all. The doll soul question is just a consequence. And this special discussion here is a consequence of the doll soul question, just from a different approach.
And the other reason: this is an interesting - and controversial - discussion topic on a doll forum. Why should it be less important (or more important) than any other discussion topic? Discussing the dolls is just as much fun for some of us as playing with the dolls

[... ] inside an object that had no means of expression and no free will. I admit to not being too worldy known on religions, but isn't God giving humans free will a common misconception?
"Misconception" sounds a bit biased But actually, if you are talking about Christianity, you might be right with this definition. I was brought up in Christian social context and I have often heard that God wanted us to have free will. But I don't see any free will given by God in the Bible from the beginning - I mean from the genesis perspective. To decide, you have to see the consequences of your decision (in socially defined norms of "good" and "evil", no matter if it is a continuum or a contrast). Which Adam and Eve were not able to before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge... Which was forbidden by God. I want to state here that I don't have any negative thoughts towards Christianity at all, it is just something that puzzled me from the beginning. And yes, I know there are passages in the Bible that suggest or indicate that there might be someting like the free will, but none that state clearly that God gave humans free will.
In other religions, the free will might be mentioned (in mine it is, as I stated some posts earlier, included in the most important "law"), and sometimes it is seen as given by a god. Sometimes it is just assumed to be there, but not directly intended by a god.
Last, but not least, there is no consensus in neuroscience about the so-called "free will" (the big discussion started with Libet, didn't it?). So if we talk about "common misconceptions", free will itself might be a big one - even among many atheists.
This way, we might be not much different from our dolls in having a free will... But in expressing our "(un)free will", we are... maybe. Some doll owners hear the dolls speak in their heads or perceive feelings coming from the doll towards them. Could that not be counted as an expression?

Atleast our souls are not trapped, and I admit to having laymans observations on this, but surely the soul is released upon death? Why would a soul be trapped in something that cannot die?
I am not a pro in religions, neither, but my observations were very different.
Some animistic religions don't see a soul as "releaseable" in the typical sense, it stays bound to the personality even after death, and can be consulted by the children and grandchildren of the deceased in a shrine, where it resides permanently.
Why should a soul consider a doll as a trap then, if another inanimate object (a shrine) can be a soul container?
Also, I begin to ask myself if a doll maybe can "die". Is a doll that is sold and gets a new wig, new eyes, new clothes, a new name, even a new body or a new head, is it still the same doll? The dolls in this hobby are more than just the original mold. They have parts we can change. They are - or represent - characters. I would say the doll can "die", or cease to exist as a character. If there is a - singular, individual - soul in it, and one assumes that souls are released upon death, wouldn't it be released in the moment that the character ceases to exist in doll form?

 

I don't think that was directed at me, since I don't believe an inanimate object can have a soul. Neither would I want my doll to have one, she is a piece of artistic expression for me.

 

Hi Dollblue, thank you so much for all the time you spent answering me directly. And yes, I was referring to the Christian perspective of 'free will' as I was under the impression that it is taken as said, however their Bible does not state that- so thank you. I am clinically training in psychology as well as work within psychological research, perhaps science is my religion? It certainlly shapes my view on aspects of my life and has changed how I view past events I have experienced.

I am fine if people want to assume a soul for their doll, but it still comes down more to our own perspective of the doll and interpretation of it rather than what the likeliness is to be (which from my perspective is; it's a chuck of expensive resin which brings joy to me; but that is it).

It feels as though what people desire of the doll, and even need, is far more than it can offer; but they will passionately believe the doll has these qualities. I feel almost sad about it, as though the doll is representing something missing or they believe in something that could verge on unhealthy. I am sure that is not the case; and I certainly would not want to presume that religion equates to an unhealthy perspective on things. I am sure we are all reasonable people here, and with a vast amount of view points on how we perceive events and items within their lives. I could not, and would not give an inanimate object such as a doll the same importance as I would a human being.

However, I feel I may have pulled the topic askew due to my further pushing on the soul element, and may have limited what other people may have wanted to say about their religions and the impressions this may have on their dolls.

 

I have to say that I never expected this discussion to last this long and stay so calm! Guess I was a little too paranoid .

The entire bible talks about free will. It doesn't necessarily uses those words, but there are many paragraphs and verses about choice.

The most well known phrase is probably 1 Tessalonians 5: 21: "...Test all and hold on to what is good." Or what about Deuteronomy 30: 19: "Choose life!"? Galatians 6: 7: "A man reaps what he sows"?

John 1:11 "He came to his own, and his own received him not." That suggests a choice, not? "His own" did not want Him, so they rejected Him.

To decide on something you don't have to know the exact details of the consequences. How many times do we make choices and later on realize just how far the consequences stretched? Don't know about you, but I had to make many decisions in life where I had no clue if I was making the right choice. I'm not psychic. But I had to decide. So if someone tells me NOT to go right, I have the option to ignore him, to listen to him, or to delay the decision-making moment for a bit.

Or what about parents warning their kids not to touch the stove? Unless those children have had the experience that touching something hot hurts, they won't know why mom and dad are making such a fuss. The parents are trying to protect them and basically asking their children for their trust.

I kind of see Adam and Eve like that. They had no concept of good and evil. If God would explain to them why it wouldn't be a good idea to eat the fruit of that tree, they wouldn't have been able to wrap their heads around it. So, instead He told them no, and hoped that they would trust Him on this.

Now, if there hadn't been a tree at all, then we would have had a situation that lacked free will.

As for the free will thing, this is exactly why I don't think anything lifeless can have a soul. I believe that with having a soul, you get the ability to choose and have a free will. Lifeless things can't do anything, let alone make a decision and as such they are soulless.

 

Hi Silk, I think that how the Bible allows for interpretation can make it it's own enemy; and it would suggest that some of the followers intepret things in very strict ways. Ultimately, are you not punished if you do not do God's will and the will of the followers? That doesn't seem like free will to me. BUT, and a big but; I don't want to turn this, as you said calm debate, turn into anything nasty or of an attack at all.

Interestingly though, the freewill which I questioned could indeed lead credence to my very feeling that something without life can not have a soul...

I'd like to maybe move on from the soul aspect of religion though, or just Christianity. I think they have limited the topic to just that which I don't want to have done.

 

This is pretty much my stance on it. As a firm believer in Kaballistic creation ideas, I think artistic expression is very spiritual, because I feel that the way the universe and all life was made was a kind of artistic expression. So when I spend so much time making one doll individual and beautiful and "mine", I think it retains something that is unique to it and to me, and possibly to the person who casted the resin and sent it to me. This is why these dolls are so special to me and why I really don't have an interest in other kinds of dolls; they are very personal, and to me they certainly don't have human "souls" or whatever you want to call it, but I just feel there's something special about them due to these factors.

 

I am someone who's pretty strict in interpreting that book . Just wanted to say that you're post isn't attacking at all (in case you were worried). It's a good question and personally I think that if someone - a follower of any kind of belief - gets offended by questions like these, it's because he's insecure. Maybe he hasn't formulated an answer for himself. Or maybe the not knowing is making him nervous. Usually when that happens, they tend to want to stay too much on top of things... and that's when a discussion gets heated.

Even though I have my own answer to the question you just raised, I don't think it's on-topic or beneficial for this discussion. So, I'm going to pass answering it, if that's okay with you. (well, you've already said as much, so I'm preeeeetty sure it's okay, lol)

 

Hmm....firstly talking about religion tend to be quite troublesome, so I'll try to as simple in my view.
I'm not a very religious person too. But I do believe in a greater power which not even science can explain totally. But I guess it's up to any religion or person to interpret it according to their own beliefs and knowledge.

I believe 'faith' is the thing that moves any religion in the world. Independent of if someone believes in a soul or not, or if there is a heaven or hell, if you believe in it, and have faith in it, that's what really matters. Only make sure you don't disrespect anyone along the way.

As for me, the little bit of faith I have reserved goes for others things far beyond a doll.

 

I'm not religious nor very spiritual. I don't believe in the standard definition of the soul. I believe that people are connected by some sort of collective unconscious. I believe the many-worlds theory of quantum mechanics. I believe what we see as ghosts or spirits may be inter-dimensional time travelers.

As for dolls, I don't believe that dolls have souls, a life force, or anything of that nature. I may project a personality and emotions onto a doll and interact with it, but I'm fully aware that I'm doing this. I do become attached to objects after doing this, but I'm actually attached to the character that I've created in my mind and not just the hunk of resin/plastic/etc.

Interesting topic, I think there's a lot of psychology involved in how people treat dolls and other objects.

 

I am a Christian and also a doll owner. My viewpoint on dolls have steadily changed before I became one so I don't think that the two correlate together.

I use dolls as a creative outlet. They're that and nothing more. It's fun to customize, play and give them personalities and whatnot but, by the end of the day, they are just pretty toys. At most, I think that they're most useful to me in life when I use them to connect with someone.

I did used to believe in animism back then and always got scared by this certain doll that I thought was possessed. It got really bad to the point that I had to take medication (not that it helped at all, I hate the fake-happy :/ ). But I find it so liberating that I don't have to go through that anymore. Hey, now I'm able to own even more freaky looking dolls? Haha.

 

First of all, let me say this is such a fascinating topic! I'm new to the forum, but to see a topis like this discussed with open mind and mutual respect inspires me very much. there's so much more to this hobby that just dolls, if we want there to be - we can bring our creativity, our other hobbies, or phylosophy and even our believes into it and it all meshes beautifully. It can be as much or as little as one wants - that is why I think it's such a beautiful thing and such an inspiring place (meaning this forum) to be a part of.

It was great to see viewpoints from so many religions, including even Shinto! People from my religion (Christianity) have already spoken up, so I will state that I agree with them - but want to add a note from my personal philosophy... It doesn't contradict Christianity, I don't think, but if it does - I don't mind being corrected

They say that being a mom is like having your heart walking outdside of yoir body. Being a mother IRL, I know how that feels (even though my child isn't walking yet). To me, anything I love virtually takes a piece of my heart, - of course, I don't love anything more than God, my husband or my daughter, so it's really a tiny teeny piece of my heart in case of my dolls, but never the less, they have it. And it's not their soul, it's my soul, my imagination and my love that makes them more than just a mere piece of resin. I believe when people say they can tell the difference between a loved object like that and just any object of the same kind (i.e. they can tell if an old doll was loved and played with or sat in the display case - and it's not just physical markers they go by). I don't believe it is idolatry (which would be a sin in Christian religion) because I don't place any more value in my 'relationship' with a doll than, say, my relationship wth a pet. I don't let this hobby consume my life or take away time from really important relationships, or at least I try not to ever let it

 

I think this thread is cool and for the most part am enjoying the contributions made by the members here. I was flat out told not to get my doll because she was too human looking and warned against imbuing the doll with human traits. Religiously I have a seriously diversified background and have read everything I can get my hands on about idols and dealing with them. The most interesting thing historically and religiously is that if my doll didn't have a face it would remove the religious stigmas both ancient and modern, from the golem stories to the wax voodoo doll. I feel that the limit and sky on it is the imagination of both the creator of the doll and the love of the possessor. My doll is my baby since I have no children and I am practicing the ancient Egyptian doll policy with her. It is roughly that you use the doll as practice or training for the real deal. Since I'm learning to sew for my doll Ansara the skills will be easily transferable to sewing for myself, others and my future offspring.
As a sidenote I think it would be fun to do a religions of the world costume series with dolls.

 

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I feel there can be a 'spark' to inanimate objects...something that gives them a presence. Some have it, and some do not. However in my opinion, a living thing has a more 'developed' spark, if you will.

 

I wonder how Amish people would see the dolls...