Religious BJDs - character and clothing

Actually, speaking as a Catholic, I would have no trouble with an evil Cardinal as long as he was a Cardinal that was also evil and not evil because he was a Cardinal. One is an sad human failing, the other a slight to my religious beliefs. I've seen plenty of unpleasant depictions of the clergy that don't phase me. It's only when the implication is made that being a member of the clergy makes them this way that I start to get upset.

 

ok for one I think religion in any hobby can be a touchy subject,

But I think anyone should be aloud to express any kind of religion in their doll as long as it is done respectfull and not simply to hurt/parody someone's believes.

also like some others pointed out some expresions that were in the basis religios like: Angels, demons/devils, monks, priests and the likes have over the years found their ways into other genre's like Fantasy so some people may create a priest doll with a magical more "world of warcraft" "Tolkien" "guildwars" style, these are still priests angels and demons they have just lost the religion part.

and I think both people who create a doll through religion, or though fantasy should be able to express what they want said doll to be.

 

my dolls are not just dolls, they are all characters in one of my stories at the same time not all my characters are/will be dolls. One of my future doll characters is at one point in the story a nun, if I chose to dress her that way she would be dressed as a proper medieval nun and her character reflects this culture, one I have looked into for the upmost accuracy for both story and doll. Yet another doll character is working for a cardinal of the Catholic church and is the bad guy, though he himself is neither a monk or priest and again I have researched to make these characters the most accurate as possible. I don't think there is any problem with dressing dolls as in religious clothing if you have respect for the religion. I would not be offended by someone dressing their doll as a nun or priest, or Buddhist monk, but even as a non-Christian I would be offended by someone dressing their doll as a slutty nun, then again I am offended by slutty nun Halloween costumes. In the end, and I think most will agree with me on this, the importance here is respect to the culture and religion the doll is representing.

 

yeah. slutty nun costumes (although slightly humorous) are offensive in the long run.

 

I see no issue. Being a Jehovah's witness, I don;t really have any type of special religious clothing or symbols. plus frankly my religious beliefs have never been meet with the most friendliness from others. Though my one dollfie is definitely going to be a Jehovah's witness.

 

I suppose as long as its done with a certain respectfulness and tact, its alright.

That's not to say that nobody will be offended, no matter how careful you are, but I don't see it being broadly offensive enough to stir up any real backlash.

 

I think that precisely is the issue when people are offended. The clothing sometimes refer to a very particular religion and oftentimes, when the material is offensive you likely will want to avoid the association.

I'd love to see dolls dressed in religious garb just nothing too controversial that may offend people who are likely not familiar with the doll community. As it goes, an open mind and an accepting hear makes the world a better place even in the world of dolls right?

 

While we all mostly agree that here on DoA and usually in general its good to be respectful of other peoples beliefs, I don't really see why people are saying that "as long as its respectful, its OK" as a general statement. I think even if its not respectful, its still OK. But there definitely needs to be an understanding that you're gonna piss some people off by doing what you're doing.

For example, if I made a doll and dressed him up as how I perceive Muhammed to look and named him "The Prophet Muhammed", I know I'd upset a lot of people by doing that. But with that understanding, I don't think its intrinsically wrong to make a muhammed doll. I would likely not post photos of that doll here on DoA, out of respect for the community that has been established here on DoA. But I belong to other communities that are more controversial and they would likely find the muhammed doll interesting. Thats just an example, and I have no intention of making a muhammed doll. But if I did, I don't think it would be wrong.

 

Al-Qu'ran says that all Muslims must be dressed modestly. The different interpretations of this modest dress are cultural interpretations, which is why Islamic men and women in Egypt wear different modest clothing to Islamic men and women in Pakistan and so on. In some countries it is even enforced by Hijab Police, and the ruling government's opinion on what is modest is more important than what is culturally prevalent or what is actually specified in Al-Qu'ran.

Well, if you did create a Prophet Mohammed doll you'd actually be going out of your way to create something offensive, rather than creating something that offends someone by accident...and how can an intentionally offensive act ever really be ok?

That's where religious costumes can get confusing. There is nothing to stop someone assuming that a doll dressed as a Cardinal and acting in an immoral way was doing so because he was a Cardinal rather than just because he was a bad human being. When you (general you) dress a doll in an identifiable costume, their character traits can reflect back on the religion/profession/calling that costume represents, for better or for worse.

 

Not necessarily. If I were doing an art instillation using dolls to depict various religious figures of the worlds major religions, and I had Muhammed along side Jesus, Abraham, Buddha, etc, thats not intentionally offensive.

And even if it were intentionally offensive, that doesn't make it wrong. The Onion is intentionally offensive, and I quite enjoy that publication and I'm glad it exhists. Certain comedians are intentionally offensive and I think they're hilarious. Bill O'Reilly... don't get more offensive than him, but I don't think he's wrong for publically stating his opinions even though they're offensive. I want to punch the man some times because of what he says, but I think its more than just OK that he's allowed to say them. I think its important that he be allowed to say them. Likewise, I think its important that people are allowed to express themselves, especially when it comes to art (with the execption of yelling fire in a crowded theatre maybe).

 

It would be intentionally offensive whether it was considered 'art' or not, because it is well known that depicting the Prophet is not particularly welcomed by the Muslim community. There are hadith that oppose this and surely you remember the uproar over the Danish cartoons? Offending a whole group of people because you want to depict the Prophet as a dolly is a waste of artistic creativity when there are plenty of other things to depict in art!

While I believe in freedom of speech, I also believe in knowing there is a time and a place to exercise that freedom and it's important to respect the beliefs of others. A lot of the trouble we have in the world stems from one culture disrespecting another, whether through genuine misunderstanding or through determined offense. I enjoy the Onion as well and I don't recall seeing anything particularly offensive in the feeds I've had, but satire and irony are on a different level to deliberate offense. Sometimes you have to make a choice between your self-expression and keeping the peace and I do believe that a lot of people choose the selfish path of pleasing themselves when they really should have kept their mouths shut. Causing an international incident is nothing to be proud of, even in the name of free speech.

And this is exactly why DoA doesn't encourage religious or political debate here. We're in it for the dolls.

 

I really like seeing accurate or at least believable depictions of different religions in doll characters. It makes it all the more interesting and you can learn about different religions and cultures.

However I very much dislike people making "priests" and "nuns" completely lacking in any of the values befitting their station, and just randomly use it for sexual kinks. (ex: slutty foul-mouthed nun, murderous and highly sexual preist, etc...)

 

I think that it is bad to dress a doll as a priest or as a monk. If the owner of the doll does not belive in God maybe he would not buy the doll in the "religious" clothes at all. But if the owner is a believer, the doll dressed as a priest or a monk would not be accepted by him - as a kind of the blasphemy.

 

I don't think you have any rational justification for making a statement like this. And your whole argument is based on this premise. You don't get to decide for anyone else what is a worthwhile artistic/religious/political pursuit. And thats the point I'm trying to make...

But this sounds like its starting to get heated, so I'm going to respectfully bow out now.

*goes to play with dollies*

 

I've never seen dolls in religious clothes ever. Though I guess I do see the occassional doll in robes at some time or another.
I have no religous beliefs, but if someone wants to put their doll in a hijab, burka, or monks robes, I'm not one who would complain if I saw them in the gallery.

People are equal no matter what their religous belief, if they have one or not. And if people wish to dress their dolls to represent said beliefs, who am I to say they shouldn't?
We all bought our dolls to dress them how WE wanted them to look, right? Religion or not, it's our OWN choice!

 

we are only limited by our imaginations, i think. i am wiccan and intend making a ceremonial garment for my bjd sophie.

 

The concept of avoiding 'art' topics that deliberately upset/hurt/offend others, in favour of others that are just as arty yet less contraversial? Being respectful of the religious beliefs of other people and not going above and beyond the call of duty in order to offend those people? Yes, that's irrational. But back to dollies.

 

I don't know...not all people are as easily upset by that sort of thing, and there have been several people who have said they wouldn't be offended if someone had a doll representing their religion.

Also, people's dolls aren't always like their owners. Almost none of my dolls come anywhere close to my own religious beliefs, though many of their characters do have a religion. But, I don't base all their characteristics on my own life--they're fictional characters, not autobiographical. If you look around the forum, it gets pretty clear pretty quick that people's dolls' characters diverge widely from their own. With that in mind, it's perfectly possible for someone who does not believe in god, or comes from a different religious background still have a doll that is a priest or what have you. There's nothing inherently offensive about that, they're just telling a story with their doll. How much it offends other people is going to come down largely on how the subject matter is handled.

 

I'm just going to quickly poke into this thread to say that, for me, art is supposed to be provocative and controversial. I love dolls that reflect that! It's my favorite thing about the doll hobby! Personally, I didn't spend $500-some on a doll to play it safe So basically, for some people, art is DEFINED by controversy -- it's not like some sprinkles on the side, it's the main event!

Plus, there's a difference between doing something FOR THE PURPOSE OF offending someone, and doing something you want to do that HAPPENS to offend someone. I agree that it would be pretty ridiculous to use a doll for the express purpose of offending someone -- who would pay $500 for that? But I did pay $500 to be able to express my artistic creativity however I like with MY doll for MY personal joy, and if it happens to offend somebody, well, that's a shame! But you know, it's not a big deal to me. Even eating chicken Parmesan can offend some religious (or vegetarian) sensibilities~

 

I think you have a good point. It's not that I think people should go around just being mean spirited, but at the same time, in a community that prizes self-expression, there comes to a point when people have to stop walking on eggshells. People will often tackle difficult topics through their art, so a certain amount of controversy popping up should be expected. I also do appreciate that the bjd community (both companies and hobbyists) have the tendency at times to really push the envelope--I think it does lead to a more interesting and vibrant community. Even if I don't like everything that's out there, I appreciate that people feel free enough to not always have to play it safe.

In a big arty community like this there has to be a certain amount of give and take. Posters should give thought to what they're putting out there, and be prepared to take any fallout from it if it's a sensitive topic--definitely take into account the venue and audience and what you're trying to say. But at the same time, viewers need to also realize that not everybody shares their views and not take things too personally when stuff comes up that they are not entirely comfortable with. It's absolutely impossible to not offend anybody, and it's not an unalienable right to never be offended. To try and attempt that would become stifling and prevent artists form exploring valid, though perhaps more sensitive topics through their art.