Religious BJDs - character and clothing

Well, just adding to the conversation.

My doll's character is a very religious individual of the Catholic faith. I, myself, am not Catholic. I'm agnostic, actually, but did that stop me from making a character of a different religion? Nope. The doll isn't a priest or anything, but I know for a fact he has the religious views because he was a role-play character before he was my doll.

Anyways, I think a person should be free to dress their doll in whatever religious clothes they want to. Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu... I mean, I am a person who likes to see variety, and just because a doll's character believes a certain way doesn't mean the owner does. Take dolls that smoke for example. A lot of people who have doll characters who smoke don't themselves.

 

If a person is offended, it's because they WANT to be offended. This might sound simplistic but it's all I have.

I live by the words "It is what it is' meaning: I take things very literally and require proof beyong a reason of doubt that they are different from what is presented. What I see PRESENTED....is a DOLL...no matter how they are costumed.

For me.... A "DOLL" is a "DOLL" (In my mind) no matter how it is dressed, styled or otherwised. If a person is offended due to their culture or belief, they have the right not to look. Most of us have an ingrained desired to be right and know the righteous path. But if our perceived righeousness leads to making decisions about how someone should dress a doll...we need to get a grip! Maybe someone should tell me how I must position the toilet paper in my house too? Will you be offended if I tell you it's torn piece up?

I think we all need to get over it somehow...learn to look away if the doll isn't to your liking. Someone is always going to be pissed off, offended, upset....feel like it's personal.....

Do what you want...and if someone is offend....what can you do (other than live your life to please them and how would that be fullfilling?)

If it does not harm another living being...it's game for me!

 

I disagree. I think that the point of art is communication. Controversy doesn't have to be involved. The goal is to present your idea in a way that is clear, understandable, and reaches the hearts and minds of the largest possible audience. A controversial idea is simply one which a lot of people will disagree strongly with. It's still, then, possible to tackle a controversial idea without being offensive. A sort of "I respectfully disagree," if you will. I've seen way to much bad art being given more attention than it should have been just because it had some sort of shock value.

Offense in humor has been mentioned, and I really think that that is the only time where it actually works without hindering the message you want to put forth. With offensive humor you hear something that offends you. It makes you uncomfortable, so you laugh, but you also know that laughter is the desired outcome, so you don't get angry or upset. In most other circumstances being deliberately offensive is just going to offend people, which doesn't exactly promote communication.

Now, if you have some controversial idea about religion, and you honestly believe that the best and most effective medium for your idea is to portray religious figures with ball jointed dolls, and your goal isn't to be rude, but rather to be artistic, then, yes, you are probably within your rights to ignore whether or not you offend people. But I just don't see this as the most likely scenario in the doll collecting world.

What I think is more likely is that a collector is interested in having a doll in religious attire either because they are interested in it for it's own aesthetic value or because they want to portray a character that would wear it. And in both cases I think trying not to offend anyone is simply the mature, polite thing to do. And not surprisingly most people have said that they don't mind religious dollies as long as there isn't something else about the doll that would make it offensive.

A lot of the responses I've seen promoting the idea that you shouldn't worry about what others think seem to me to be very knee jerk reactions. "No one can tell me what to do with my doll. It's mine. I payed for it," kind of stuff. And no one can tell you what to do with your doll. But if you are interested in not coming off as unintentionally rude, then perhaps considering the attitudes of others toward their religious garb and how they are willing to see it depicted might be of some value. No one is trying to spoil anyone's fun, but I really don't feel that a call to try and be considerate of each other is wholly out of line.

 

Well, let me ask this, given that this is my Father Morgan, my 'Catholic ordained' Shiwoo:



Is that offensive? Someone who detests the Catholic faith will most likely find him offensive, but that is the choice of the viewer. I'm not deliberately out to offend, but someone who wants to be offended will be.

So while I can respect that it might offend someone... it is my choice to have him dressed in cassock and Roman collar. (It's a little skillaboo in that shot, but you get the general idea.) So no, I don't much concern myself with what others think of him dressed this way, as he's dressed the way I want him to be, portraying his characterized persona.

No knee-jerking about it. Conversely, if I see a portrayal that I don't much care for... then it is my choice and respect of the person who owns the portrayal to simply move on and continue on my path. Not to take them to task for offending me, but to understand and accept that they are portraying their character... just as I portray mine.

If that's rude... well, I guess that's just me.

 

Controversy doesn't have to be involved, you're right--but sometimes it is, and not because the artists was trying only for shock value. There's a huge middle ground between going out of your way to be polite and not offend and doing things for no other reason than negative attention. Sometimes art also exists to make the viewer think, which can be uncomfortable for some people when it comes to some subjects--it can take the viewer outside of their comfort zone. That's not always a bad thing.

People can create powerful things with dolls--they're not any lesser than any other art medium. Whether or not someone chooses too is another matter, but it can happen. There's a wide variety of stuff out there, and people all have their own motivations for doing what they do.

I think this is a common reason for doing so--I agree with you here. However, it doesn't mean that other reasons don't exist.

It's not a knee jerk reaction--it's the truth. And it's a truth that an amazing amount of people tend to forget in these threads. Sometimes people in the bjd community get too much into what other people are doing with their dolls--there's a lack of boundaries at times. It probably comes from being a community built around sharing with other members. However, other members have to realize that other people's dolls don't belong to the community, and each individual has their own goals and standards in this hobby. It is not the individual's responsibility to run everything past the community at large, or to never offend anybody within the community.

Again, as I said in a previous post, it's not that I appreciate mean-spiritedness--I don't, but it's impossible that no one will ever be offended, and I don't think people should be expected to walk on egg shells or stay away from subject matter that might be controversial. Posters do need to put some thought into what they're putting up (especially if they don't want to deal with any unintended consequences), but viewers need to take responsibility for their own viewing habits and reactions.

QFE That is the grown up way to handle things.

 

Ah, forgive me if my previous post was a little unclear. I'm not talking about worrying about every individual out there. I'm talking about not wanting to upset the religion as a whole. It is conceivable that a religion might not want the marks of their holy order plonked on a doll (someone mentioned the Mormon undergarment, and there is the issue with the Prophet Mohammed, and I'm sure there are others). Seeking to inform yourself about the religion's attitude in general, was more my idea. No one can be held responsible for the responses of individuals as individuals if there was no precedent by which to gage their reaction. With billions of people out there, there is probably someone who would find just about any action offensive. I was speaking in generalities, not specifics.

I don't really disagree with anything you've said here. I'm sorry if it sounded like I did. My comment about bad art comes from personal experience as an art student. I would see a lot of students making art that was borderline offensive, but that wasn't particularly good or interesting, just because doing something highly controversial seems to lend some sort of "street cred" to the artwork. I don't really have a problem with art that makes you uncomfortable, I just have a problem with bad art being taken more seriously because it is about a controversial subject.

As for my comment about dolls as an artform, I don't dispute that they can be used to create truly good art. But I think that most in the hobby are simply collectors. And among the minority that are more than just collectors, I don't see many tackling the hairy subject of religion. Hence why I said I didn't think it was likely.

 

I see what you are talking about. However, religions are also made up of individuals, or a lot of individuals are a part of some religion or another (however you want to look at it, lol)--though plenty won't necessarily agree with each other about it--that's been my own personal experience, anyway. If people are trying to avoid controversy, then yes, being informed it definitely the thing to do--knowledge is power and all that. Whether or not they should avoid controversy is something else entirely.

 

I really like him I'm going to use him as an example:

I have no problem with this doll...I think he's quite lovely...I think that it's totally OK to depict dolls as non-specific religious people (Mohammad in my opinion would be taking it too far) as long as it's respectfully done.

I would not want to see a scanitly clad nun doll...but I would just choose to NOT SEE IT. I am not going to tell anyone what to do with their dolls because it's not my place. Not everyone has the same values that I do nor do I expect them to.

My dolls don't have specific religions or religious clothing. HOWEVER what I dress my dolls in does reflect my value system. My dolls don't own miniskirts or skimpy clothing (and as I have all tinies I hope I wouldn't be lol) but I do have two that are "punk" in style and have supernatural creatures (Guillaume is a guardian angel for example).

But they're my dolls...someone might think that my having an angel doll is offensive...and this is where "respecfully disagreeing" comes in

 

I guess one point of stress would be our idea of respectful. Some of us here seem not to keen on the term. On a certain level, as a community it must be observed whether we notice it or not. We maintain a certain level of civility and being civil to a fellow BJD enthusiast is basic, else this forum would not be a welcoming community.

Respect is crucial and essential because it is one of the most basic requirement in being a person. If we think that our freedom is absolute, that we are free to simply say everything without thinking or accepting the consequences, then that would be quite irresponsible. True, nobody stops you from declaring what you want but ultimately, in one way or another you will have to check the direction you are aiming as a person. Your intention will directly affect another person regardless. So being careful isn't a bad idea, because it tells everyone that "hey, I've got this thing I want everyone to know but I know not everybody will be happy about it but I am sorry if we cannot agree with each other."

Now, don't get started on the argument that controversial/offensive = bad person. That won't necessarily be correct. It doesn't necessarily follow and what I'm pointing at is that, keep in mind that we cannot just say that respect is of a lesser importance. Rather, respect...or maybe even as simple as tolerance would go far. Besides, if there are things that you believe are truly offensive and you need to express disapproval, go ahead but still, tactfulness and politeness are due to both parties...and that is still respect regardless of any issue.

 

It occurs to me that many of the most glaring potential problems might solve themselves to some extent because of the nature of character creation itself. When someone creates a character, usually they'll do a bit of research to figure out what's what with the concept. Some of the more obvious issues would likely become apparent in the course of that basic research process, and could thus be avoided if the owner/creator so chooses.

 

I mean, you perfectly have the right to disagree -- art means many things to many people. All I'm saying is, that's not what art means to me, and it's not what it means to a lot of other people. And since it's my doll and all, I think it's okay to do what art means to me with my own creation. I'm not trying to explore profound issues and send across a clear message -- I just like to push people out of the ordinary with art, just to get them thinking. Let's take an example: A catholic nun doll, which someone has painted / glued pubic hair onto (another controversial subject). To me (possibly not to you or to some others), that's an artistic statement. Now, that might be very offensive to some (because it could be seen as emphasizing the nun's sexuality), or it might not be (I'm sure many nuns do indeed have pubic hair). But I think that'd be a cool thing to do. I'd enjoy it. I'd photograph it. I'd think about it. And if it offended somebody, that's too bad, but in some ways its also part of what makes that art.

 

Hmmm... I've just finished reading through this topic and as an artist (I'm a writer) I tend to agree with Opifex Umbratili that art doesn't have to be offensive all the time. A controversial topic can still be done respectfully.

Art is a form of communication; you want to bring a premisse across, or share an idea. I personally hate art that has nothing more but a shock value, because it tends to do the opposite of communicating. Often the only result is that people get angry, turn their backs on the painting/sculpt/whatever and won't think about it anymore. It's a missed chance to me.
Offending people is easy, but turning a touchy topic into something people will want to talk about is not. I tend to respect artists who are able to pull that off, because it is something I haven't been able to master yet.
Take the movie 'The Woodsman' for example: The topic is difficult (paedophilia) and the opinion of the writer might be shocking, but it is written so carefully that hardly anyone could be repulsed by it.

I think that with every topic - even the topic of religion and dolls - it is possible to create art that will not offend masses of people if the artist knows what he's talking about (i.e did his research) and thinks about what the best way is to bring the message across. The freedom of speech is a fantastic right, but it is easy to forget the responsibilities that come with that right. Sometimes people get needlessly hurt and this could've been avoided if words were chosen more carefully. If this is the result, I'd rather wish I had kept my mouth shut.
That doesn't mean you should shy away from every confrontation, however. Sometimes confronting people ís the best approach.

 

Anything can be done badly--that's very true (I was an art student as well ). I think one thing that successful pieces have is that they will tend to create the reaction the artist was aiming for, and to do that well people need to have some understanding of their audience and put thought into how they can best get across their message. It's all in the execution.

I will support people's right to say whatever they want to say, no matter how much I personally can't stand it, as those same rights are what protect me and allow me to say what I need to. However, on a personal level I have far more respect for those people who have reached beyond just shock value and really have something to say. If people use imagery that is shocking, it would be nice for it to be shocking for a genuine reason rather than it just being used as a crutch.

 

If I had a doll who was Jewish (like myself) I would defiantly put him/her in the traditional Jewish wear. Right now a lot of my dolls don't fit that. I have one who's an Elven god. So he has to look that part. To me trenchcoats and certain articles of clothing are what make him who he is. I have another one who is going to be a Wiccan. So yes, he'll wear crystals and pentagrams. Does that make a me a bad person for doing that? No. It's how their characters are. It's what I envisioned for them when I created the characters. I wouldn't be offended in the least if someone made a doll of a certian religion if it was well done and accurate. I would love to see dolls of every religion. We as a doll community are so diverse so why shouldn't our dolls be?

 

Hrm...this is another interesting debate.

Personally, I'm Catholic...and I don't see anything wrong with creating a Jesus, Buddha, Shiva, etc. doll. I honestly think that that could be done in a very classy "profession of faith" sort of manner if you really wanted to. I believe that an Our Lady of Guadalupe doll could be very very beautiful and not so blasphemous.

If you were to make a Prophet Mohamed doll, however, I could see a few people having a problem with that...

But then again, I personally feel you are entitled to create whatever you wish! ^^;

 

I'm Catholic too and would love to see an Our Lady of Guadalupe!!! But Our Lady is not a specific god, goddess or prophet. Yes she's special to us but Mary is a saint most specifically (a very important one). I'd have to think more about this one...but a saint in general would be okay IMO because while they are religious figures, they aren't central to the faith.

 

It's all about respect, in this case, respect for the religion you're depicting. Even if it is not your religion, or a religion you "believe in", using its symbolism to directly stir offense will offend people. But I don't necessarily believe that all dolls with a religious element are going to be this big, shocking display of LOOK HOW/HOW NOT [insert faith here] I AM or HAHA SEXILY CLAD [cleric of x religion meant to be celibate]. It can be part of a character. No different than a character having green eyes, or a character being gay. Controversial does not necessarily mean offensive.

I have a character, Adam, who I dearly want to have in doll form. He's a vampire, and also a practicing Catholic. Now, the two of those are not terribly odd on their own, but together, might they be construed as offensive? Yes. But if it's handled well, and I hope I can, it's a part of his character, not a surface gimmick. (He's also gay, which is his own problem as for where it intersects with his faith. I wouldn't censor that, either.) As a Christian, I have no problem with dolls that bear respectfully handled signs of their faith, no matter what that faith is. And if I don't like a particular doll? (Let's say a scantily clad nun doll, or a Stereotypical Super Kewl Badass Wiccan Who Blows People Up With Their Magic Powers.) I can keep on scrolling. Or in a meetup, I can walk on by. I can find something to like.

There's already the big discussion about naming a doll Jesus or Mohammed, and I think that covers a lot of what I have to say on depiction of actual religious figures (prophets, angels, saints, deities, so on.) But I say, why not? Religion is a major, defining part of some characters. And our dolls are characters.

 

I haven't, but I don't see anything wrong with it. If the doll's character is Muslim or Christian or whatever, then why shouldn't they dress in a way that reflects that? I'm Christian, and I always thought it would be cool to have a Jesus doll, or a Mary. In fact, I've been looking for the right fabric to make an Our Lady of Guadalupe outfit - I'm not Catholic, but I love the story of O.L. of Guadalupe! I don't see why it would be offensive to do that, no matter what religion you are. Generally, if you're making something like that, you're doing it to honor your beliefs (or your doll's beliefs), and I think that's great

 

i am also LDS and i agree. temple garments are sacred, and i guess the doll could wear them if he/she went to a meeting with the bishop and you asked everyone along the steps to getting your garments if it was okay. i think that would be a very silly thing to do, but if God thinks your dollie is worthy to enter the temple and recieve his/her garments i think that would be cool. but i think that would be the only way you should put temple garments on your doll.

any other religion i imagine would feel the same if they have a certain piece of clothing or jewelry that you have to be worthy to recieve... that's got me thinking now... hm... maybe i should see if it is even possible for dolls to be worthy... i'll get back to you with that.