Resale Overprice (foreal)

This, seriously. I would love to see some of the people in this thread sell their own homes at the price they paid, and not at market value.

 

LOL!!

 

My personal definition of scalping has always involved a persistent pattern of behavior. There are some people on Yahoo!Japan and here on DOA who eeeevery time some company releases a new limited snap one up and are, within a week of it shipping, selling it at a highly inflated price. If I see someone selling Volks limiteds for twice what they paid after every single Dolpa, then that is scalping. If I see someone selling a limited, Volks or otherwise, for an inflated price two or three times I'm not terribly concerned.

I do generally choose not to buy from people who I think are scalping. I would rather bide my time and see if I can catch a good deal on the doll later. So far I've always managed to do so.

 

One word: Ebay.

 

Right!-- They go to whoever has that doll at any price. Which may turn out to be a scalper.

And have no illusions, you CAN have scalpers in possession of dolls that sold out long ago! Ask any collector of Bermanns, Dollshes, Tokyo Boys, O.G. Four Sisters, etc. It doesn't mean they were there waiting in line to buy it new from the company; they may have acquired it used from someone else, & are just jacking the price now. Sorry, I should have made a distinction for that... one doesn't need to snatch dolls fresh-off-the-presses to scalp them, you can scalp for old dolls too.

Except that wasn't my argument. Your argument was that if the scalper didn't buy the doll, then "the doll would have been bought by another person who wanted it for themselves"... My counterargument was that you have no way of knowing WHO was next in line. Might've been a deserving orphan, might've been 3 more scalpers. Therefore, there's no way to judge what would've happened if Scalper hadn't bought it. That is why it is such a tangled business, whenever people try to draw lines about prices and buying patterns: There is just so much unseen, there is just so much that we don't/can't know.


Which brings another level of complexity to Aceinit's question: "Where is the line between 'reasonable markup for a doll that's no longer available from the company' [...] and 'scalping?'" .... Some people think that shopping-services are on the same level as scalpers, because they can carry such steep fees. So, we have scalpers, aftermarket markups, and shopping services: Three ways to pay more for a desirable doll. What makes any one of these more/less palatable than the other(s)?

Me too! In 5 years, I have never needed to patronize scalpers or flippers yet. There always seems to be enough good honest deals to go around, markups or no markups.

(But, I refuse to say 'never', because my crystal ball can't see that far ahead....)

 

Seriosuly, I'm lucky and currently buying my own place at below market value(foreclosure and the bank wants it off their books) But when it comes time for me to sell, I will be going for the market value at that time.

Making a profit on a doll limited or not does not equal scalping.

 

Thank god I wasn't the only one who laughed ;D

 

I see we've gotten into the "scapers are evil!" argument again... for all those who can't see scalping as a useful service at all, lets look at a hypothetical situation here.

I live in Australia, say a couple years ago I saw that Masha was going to be sold at the New York Dolpa and I desperately wanted her. If every single person who bought her wanted to keep her forever, I'd be SOL. If I recall correctly, you had to be a subscriber to FDQ to get Masha, and a Volks member to attend Dolpa, and she wasn't offered to an online after event?

So I could order something from Volks to get a membership card (assuming that international membership is OK for NY Dolpa, since the US Volks store won't ship out here), pay for a ticket to Dolpa, buy a subscription to FDQ, pay for airfare from Perth to New York, get a hotel room in New York for at least one night, and buy myself a Masha.... or I could buy one from a flipper after the event, which would almost certainly be cheaper and easier in the long run. I'd say that's a service, right? Or the people who sell dolls that you can only get at Volks owners events, Korean doll shows, IDEX, whatever.

Even for dolls that you can buy online, there will always be someone who missed out, for whatever reason. Maybe they were at work when the dolls hit the system and couldn't take a vacation day just for the chance they might snag a doll. Maybe they didn't find out about the company until a month or two later, just in time to buy them when the company ships them out and the first one gets sold for a couple hundred bucks extra. Maybe they couldn't afford the doll when it came out but have since gotten a raise, a new job, or an unexpected windfall and can now afford not only the retail price but DOUBLE the retail price. If nobody ever sold dolls or bought them as an "investment" it would be much harder, perhaps even impossible, for those people who missed out on the original sale for whatever reason to ever hope to buy it. So yes, it stinks that they charge so much but at the same time, at least they offer some people who couldn't buy the doll at release a chance to buy it later on.

 

It's pretty much this.

All I can say that when I sold a doll that was discontinued and pretty popular, I didn't want to sell it for what I paid. If I did that there would be a fat chance someone would buy the doll, say something like "we didn't bond" and sell it for a big profit a day later. Would you say no to "free money"?
I certainly wasn't going to give away money on top of going through the trouble of carefully packaging the doll, bring it to the post office, be available for the seller to answer questions, and wait till the doll arrived to make sure I could track it down if it didn't. I wasn't going to give some stranger several hundreds of dollars out of charity. It would be stupid not to get what people wanted to pay for that doll.

It's very annoying when people buy dolls only to sell them with a profit, but lot of people buy and then sell stuff for more than what they paid (comic books, baseball cards, stuff like that). My brother-in-law made some good money with buying out of print RPG books for cheap in the US and then resell those for a profit in the EU. A lot of people would call that smart, but because it's something you want, it's bad?

I didn't buy that particular doll with the intention to sell it, but after a year I just didn't want it anymore and it would be stupid not to get the money people were willing to pay for it. Most dolls that I've sold, including some limiteds, were sold for less than what I paid, because people didn't want to pay more. I got a break with that one doll and I'm not feeling bad about taking it.

 

I actually really take offence to the idea that because I don't think a doll seller has a moral obligation to sell a doll for what a collector wants to pay rather than than the going market price, I'm somehow waving the flag of capitalism and worshipping at the altar of profit. Nothing could be further from the truth of my beliefs.

As so many of us have pointed out over and over, dolls are discretionary and luxury goods, not food, water, shelter, medical care or education.

I also think some people are blurring the distinction between scalping and flipping. Buying a Soom monthly or a Unoa kit or Volks event doll on speculation and hoping the value will increase is not scalping; it's taking a calculated risk and investing money in the hope of a profit. Buying *every single* doll of a release would be scalping.

In the case of Custom House dolls if you sell a CH doll with minimal flaws on the marketplace, it's reasonable to mark up significantly because given CH's performance over the last year or so, getting the doll quickly and in guaranteed good condition amounts to added value. It's reasonable to pay more if that added value is what you want. If you're happier to wait and gamble and pay less on a sale, which is what I'm doing, then that's reasonable too. Expecting to get the doll at a sale price and not having to cope with the wait times and risk of flaws without paying for the privilege is not, IMO, reasonable. Again, no one forces you to buy a doll.

THIS.

If you want someone to sell you a collectible item for below the going rate in order to fulfill your own material desires, that hardly makes you an ethical rebel against capitalism and materialism. It just means you're out for what you get for as little as you can give, which sounds pretty darn capitalist to me.

 

Actually I feel uncomfortable with a perjorative such as "scalper" being used.
I just can't buy into this idea that some sellers are good and others are bad. Where is the harm in charging/paying the prices that the market supports? It's not harming anyone, unless you consider not being able to afford the doll you want at second hand prices a form of harm, (but as many others have said, dolls are a luxury item and you have no automatic right to get the one you want). So is the harm somehow in someone making a profit? Does that really = morally wrong?

That's exactly what a dealer does and the companies actively encourage them.

 

This thread frequently makes the common-sense part of my head hurt.

I know this is going to sound callous and cruel, but...

...I don't care.

I do not give a rat's rear end what someone's intention is. I don't care if they never intended to keep the doll/love the doll/whatever. I don't care if they bought it specifically to sell it later. The only things that make a difference to me are the tangibles. Is it in good condition, no flaws/chips/damage? Is it clean? Does it have all the pertinent parts? Can the seller prove they have the doll in hand right that second and they're not yanking my chain? Can I afford it and do I think it's fairly priced for what it is, after doing all the appropriate research? Is the seller being completely honest about everything involved in the transaction? Does the seller have a good track record with regards to deals in the marketplace? That's all that matters. Intent isn't on that list.

I think too much emphasis is placed on a seller's intent, as though somehow a 'pure intent' makes all the difference in this hobby. I agree with Katyok partially -- there is a dispute between two opposing ideologies but I don't think it's the traditional morality of manifestation of greed doing it. Part of this hobby plainly seems to believe dolls are more special than normal commodities or collectibles, and view this hobby and everyone in it from that standpoint. This faction is running into the more pragmatic faction, the people who regard dolls as sentimental physical objects but objects above everything else. The pragmatists are the ones discussing supply and demand and how it relates to collectibles; the dolls-are-special-snowflakes faction are the ones attaching a morality to the buying and selling of dolls.

It is probably painfully obvious which faction I consider myself part of.

How do you know what the maker's 'obvious' intention is? The 'obvious' intention of the original doll maker is pretty simple -- sell doll, make profit. That's the only obvious thing I see. They're artists and want to see their craft appreciated and (I'd guess) they're damn happy they can sell their art and make a living off it, but the only 'obvious' motivation is sell the doll. To that end I would guess that nine companies out of ten don't CARE who buys their dolls. 'Regular doll owner', scalper, someone with impossibly deep pockets, doesn't matter as long as they can pay for the doll. (There are, of course, exceptions -- the last few runs of Bermann come to mind, where Anu picked the people who purchased, but that is a HUGE exception and by far not the norm.) The companies aren't just in this for altruistic reasons, you know. They're in it to profit.

(And FWIW, it pisses me off like nothing else whenever anyone decries profit as being somehow evil. I'm a professional salesperson. My livelihood depends on profit, and that mentality that profit = greed = evil is the biggest obstacle possible between me and a reasonable paycheck. When it comes to profit, consumers are selfish as all hell -- they don't care what happens to the people on the selling end of the spectrum as long as THEY don't have to give anyone any more of their money than they think strictly necessary. It's obnoxious. But that is, most likely, off-topic and a discussion for another time and place.)

 

On reselling dolls for a profit? Although there are dolls that are amazing and expensive, it only takes one buyer to promote this kind of behavior. I wouldn't purchase something outrageous because financially I am not able to do so (dang! I missed the last Soom lottery!! LOL)

Sad to say just like anything in life (sporting events, concerts, etc.) scalpers will always be evident and more than willing to accept inflated prices from a demanding public.

 

Very well said. If someone is so hurt by the fact that the doll is marked up, it's simple: don't buy it. Don't buy from that person if you don't want to. I PROMISE that you will survive without the Sard or that Pearl or that Bermann. If someone does not have the will power to resist said marked up doll, then the "morality" of scalping a totally luxury product is of much lesser importance than the need of the person to line their priorities up with a little more sense. Are the doll companies evil for not selling us their dolls at only the price necessary to produce them? No. They make a profit too. Why should the reseller not make a profit for the trouble they went to to obtain the doll? It caused them some trouble too to sit at the computer till the instant a limited was released and then they had to put down a big investment to even get it. Or maybe they scoured the online marketplace for months to find (rare doll) and once they did, they sold it to make a profit. Maybe they consider it payment for how hard they looked for (rare doll). There's nothing unfair about wanting to be paid for your time, right? If there was, then every single hourly or salaried employee should be a volunteer lest they be evil but we all know that's not the case.

I would probably not buy a doll at a huge markup just because I am thrifty (okay, I'm cheap) but if I REALLY wanted a (rare doll), then I would be willing to pay what it took to obtain it and once I had obtained it, it wouldn't matter whether I got it at a lowlow price or an omghigh price. Both parties benefited.

 

Slightly OT-deviation on your "my doll is a precious unique snowflake" comment...

These sort of things don't help the situation. There's lots of instances where only certain people get their doll. If I had to jump through fiery hoops to get my doll I'd probably think it's a special snowflake as well. Which means I might scoff if another person jumps through the same hoops and flips the same doll for twice its worth.

I wonder if the "special snowflake" mentality bleeds into other hobbies. Would you (generally speaking) laugh if somebody was selling a postage stamp for twice its worth? After all, the original owner probably paid next to nothing. It's just a stamp.

 

I don't understand why people get so emotional about the buying/selling part of the hobby. Sure, I like my dolls and I'm attached to them, but when it comes to buying and selling, it's business. I think there would be a lot less butthurt if people put their business hats on instead of being hyper-emotional about it all.

I pretty much agree with the school of, hey if they mark it up that much it's up to them, and if someone buys it at that price, everyone is happy. Right and wrong don't come into it, it's just how supply and demand works, and some people are willing to try and make a profit off it. Who cares, don't buy from them if you don't want to and wait for a better deal to come.

 

"Fair" is what both a buyer and seller consider a good deal. I have paid three times what a doll sold for originally because it was one I desperately wanted.

 

Interesting, but we're beating a dead horse here... again.

Let's play the devil's advocate.
I bought a blank, limited doll head for $100 in the marketplace a few months ago. It was an extremely lucky find and I bought it seconds after the seller posted her FS thread. Today I noticed someone offering to pay four times the amount I paid for it. Now I am seriously looking over the head in my hands and thinking... "Whoa, seriously? I can get a whole doll for this? Go on a mini vacation or get all my current bills paid in full!"

I'm not a scalper. I bought the head because I love the sculpt. When I did sell dolls in the past, I usually had to take a tiny loss on the dolls because the market is saturated with similar molds or the doll just didn't sell at the price paid. I always tried including clothing, eyes, or extras for free to entice a quick sale.

So now I've got someone flashing a fistful of cold, hard cash for a limited item. Sure, if I sell it makes me a scalper in my eyes. It also puts me in with the same group of people I try like hell to avoid dealing with.

I still love this head but if someone offered me a significantly larger amount of money for it, I would sell it in a heartbeat and not loose a wink of sleep over it.

 

Manda_Chan, it's not scalping, surely. I feel sorry for the first seller, but she didn't sell it out of the goodness of her heart to you, surely, and the price was her call. Personally, I'd sell her, and get the full doll.

 

Autumnrain, I'd be lying if I said I would never-ever sell it.

Right now, I can only count on one hand the times this mold was available second market. If I do sell it, now or three years later, it wouldn't change the fact that finding another one would be very difficult. I wanted this head for a while and I put a price limit on myself to acquire one. It also doesn't help that it would be a snowball's chance in hell that I would find another one at a reasonable ( read: price I would be willing to pay ) price.

I know the seller didn't sell it to me out of the goodness of her heart. She sold it because she could let it go. Maybe she didn't love the mold after all... needed fast cash or even took a hiatus from the hobby and only kept the dolls she really couldn't part with for now. I don't feel sorry for her having to sell it because it means that I now have the head I have wanted since the release in 2009.

If/when I do sell, I would definitely want to get as much for it as possible or as much as the current market will bring for it. I am not the one setting the price for it, people who want it and are willing to pay for it set the price. Limited and rare items are a part of any hobby and I personally believe it's what makes being a part of this one special. Even if I have to adore them from my computer screen.